New tank - water changes

[steeledr]

I have set up a new Planted 4ft Discus tank just 2 months ago, 6 x Discus added 2 weeks ago after the tank had fully cycled. It also has 7 x Cory Julii and a few Cardinal Tetras. The tank is approx 220 litres with a separate 30 litre sump. I made the 1st 40 litre water change after the 1st week after putting Discus into tank but the fish were not happy, all sitting at bottom of tank but then the following morning they were all ok. I purchased fish from Nick at Sydney Discus World who appears to be very knowledgeable and was told NOT to make any further water changes for at least another month and then to change no more than 10% water weekly, preferably fortnightly. I do not want to do anything to harm these fish and I am confused, hearing so many stories of people who change up to 50% water weekly which also seems excessive. Today 1 of my fish is only breathing from 1 gill at a time. Can this be due to water conditions?
Can anybody help?.

[swifto]

I'd change 40% weekly.

[turquoisegirl1]

Water changes are vital, especially in a young tank. I dare say that the advice you have been given is both wrong and potentially dangerous to your fish.

The most important thing you need to do is invest in a test kit - not only for pH, but at least for pH, NO3 (nitrate) and KH.

Every week, test your water - desirable pH for discus is between 6-6.5 (though keeping other fish in mind, 6.5 is probably safer, without knowing the species of tetras you're keeping), desirable nitrates for ANY fish is 0, and desirable KH is quite low (below 100, anywhere to 0). However, the lower your KH, the "easier" is it for pH to fluctuate, especially in a young tank, so don't aim to get it too low just yet.

If nitrates are present, a water change MUST be performed immediately, of at least 25%, anywhere up to 50 depending on severity. If water conds are fine, still perform a water change - waste will otherwise build up in your substrate and this will cause problems, so remove it with a gravelvac and bucket, or something similar.

Breathing from one gill could be a number of things - I am loathed to admit it, but the first and last time I went to discus world, the fish I took home were riddled with gill flukes and other worms - WORM your fish straight away, using any worming medication containing the active ingredient "praziquantel".

If the fish are in clean, warm (28-32*C) water, with correct pH and KH, they should be happy. Check your water conditions, perform water changes weekly, and hopefully your fish will look and feel better.

Good luck :)

Jacqui

[BobbyBruce]

Hey Jacqui,

Check your posts please, ammonia and nitrIte should be zero, nitrate in small amounts, less than 20 ppm is not to bad though A. Ramirezi are more sensitive.

Regards,

Bob

[turquoisegirl1]

I am aware of these parameters, thanks. But if not testing nitrite or ammonia, nitrate is a good indicator of the efficiency of the entire bio cycle - as a general rule, if nitrate is zero, nitrite and ammonia are unlikely to be above 0. Higher levels of nitrate (eg 0-20ppm, as you stated) aren't "desirable", they are tolerable - please note my word choice.

[BobbyBruce]

Thanks Jacqui,

Testing for nitrAtes only in a new tank is high risk as you are not going to get nitrAtes if you don't have a colony of nitrobacter established on your filter media and without nitrIte (nitrsomonas breaking down ammonia), this won't happen.

If I am able to detect low levels of nitrAte in my tank I am happy as this is telling me that I have a functioning bio-filter. The nitrates are also useful for my plants.

Regards,

Bob

[steeledr]

Thanks for the advice - seems everybody is saying to start water changes immediately - I will make up 60 litres ( 25% ) and change tomorrow after adding Prime today and aerating for 24 hours.

[steeledr]

Thanks for the advice - I have a test kit pH 6.4 Ammonia .50 ( but should be Ammonium @ pH 6.4 and Temp of 82 ) Nitrite 0 Nitrate 40ppm. I am told NOT to worry about kH as Sydney water is good? Should I invest in one? It concerns me the Nitrate is 40ppm so I will do 60 litre water change ( 25% ) HOWEVER I am led to believe that it is good to have up to 20ppm Nitrate in a planted tank. Is that correct ???

[Merrilyn]

Your nitrAte is a bit high at 40 ppm so I'd be doing a waterchange to correct that. More of a worry is your ammonia reading of .50 (yes it is ammonium at readings under 6.5 pH but that just means it's LESS toxic. It's still not good.) Any ammonia reading means that your filter is not fully cycled and is struggling to convert the amount of waste your fish are producing.

Please do a waterchange immediately of at least 50% and continue changes every second day till you bring the ammonia reading down to zero. Adding Prime each water change will also help to neutralise the ammonia.

[steeledr]

Yeah thanks, I agree I am concerned the Nitrate has risen too but more concerned the Ammonia had also risen to .50ppm. I am also pretty sure its because of the excess waste from the fish food predominantly, there is 8 cardinal Tetras and 7 Cory Julii with the 5 x 10cm Discus, the Tank & Sump is approx 240 litres so you are probably right, maybe the tank has not fully cycled which concerns me even more, especially with 5 x new discus. I have made up 60 litres water with Prime yesterday and adjusted the pH to 6.4. I am concerned the Discus will not handle any major water change so I have changed 30 litres this morning ( 12.5% ), then will do another 30 litres on Thursday. Also adding 1/2 cap of Stability each change. I will make up another 60 litres water tomorrow to make another 30 litre water change on Saturday and again next Monday by which time I have changed 120 litres over the period of a week, which is 50% of the water. I hope this will be ok and not too dramatic on the discus. Then planning on 30 litre water change weekly, is that sufficient when I have a sump? After today’s water change Ammonia/Ammonium has dropped to .25ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate has dropped only slightly and is still almost 40ppm, pH 6.4. I have only just ordered a gH and kH test kit so I will update those results hopefully tomorrow or the following day. After 4 hours the Discus appear to be happy so hopefully it will stay that way.

[TheFish]

Ok, i'm going to be the forceful one here. You need to stop doing what you think is right and start doing the larger water changes that everyone is telling you to do. It's seriously the best thing for your fish.

Regarding some other points:

- If you have excess waste from fish food, you're feeding too much. Cut down on the amount being fed, and feed more regularly in smaller amounts.

- Discus handle massive water changes fine, as long as the pH is similar. Sydney water gh and kh doesn't vary enough to trouble you

- Changing 120 litres in numerous waterchanges is not equivalent to doing a 50% water change weekly. You can't quantify it that way because when you change 30 litres for instance, that has a day or two extra between the next waterchange to become polluted. Hence you're not adding in 50% clean water each week (at least in the standard water change metric everyone quotes). You will always be removing in part previously clean water from the prior water change when you make the next water change if that makes sense.. so the percentage you're changing is actually likely to be less.

- 30 litre water change is not sufficient each week. The fact you have a sump doesn't really change much to this idea.

- To put things into context I live in Sydney, I do two (sometimes three) weekly water changes of 70%. My discus breed every week pretty much. I do adjust pH with API pH down and thats all. Heat, ph Down, Age and water straight into the tank.

[steeledr]

OK I will do what you advise and will make a 60 litre water change daily until there is No Ammonia and little Nitrate under 20ppm. Is that ok? Then if I do 2 x 60 litre water changes weekly will that be sufficient ?
I just want to check 1st - today after I did 40 litre water change the Discus were all happy. I went out tonight and when I returned home after midnight all the discus were virtually laying on the bottom of the tank, the smallest fish - a Red Melon eyes looked really strange like it was doppy. But then after 10 mins the fish all seemed to be ok and started to move slowly but looked normal. QUESTION - Are the discus acting like that because they were all asleep and they sleep that way ? OR Is it because they are not tolerating the water change? Reason I ask is because the only other time I noticed the fish look this way was when I changed 40 litres a week or so ago. Sorry, I just do not want to do anything to harm these fish and am happy to do whatever is required to fix this situation so I can have happy fish. I appreciate your advice and look forward to comments. Thanks

[TheFish]

If you can manage a 120 litre water change asap i'd do that. Otherwise 60litres daily is ok for now.

If you came home after midnight and the lights were off and you turned them on you might have startled your fish. Discus get very scared from shadows and sudden changes of light.

Regarding them sleeping, most discus dont really sleep on the bottom to my knowledge, they pretty much just sleep how they normally swim but stay still.

I don't see any reason why they wouldnt be tolerating the water change if you are doing the following:

1. Fill water ageing bucket
2. Add Prime
3. Circulate and heat for at least 24 hours with pump/airstone, and heater
4. Add in pH adjuster (optional) - In a planted tank I honestly wouldn't bother, but seeing as you've been adjusting id slowly aim to bring it back up to what comes out of your tap and what the pH naturally settles to after ageing.
5. Replace water in tank

Things like a strong pump can transfer water from your ageing bucket to the tank, and a pH monitor (electronic) or a pH pen make testing regularly much easier.


Also based on the place you got your fish from I would definately be treating for worms and gill flukes. This should happen in a barebottom quarantine tank without the other fish.

[steeledr]

Thanks very much for advising me, I will change the 60 litres I have made up today and will make another 60 litres for tomorrow and Friday. Its quite strange the way the fish were all virtually on bottom of tank late last night but anyway they are all looking ok today. Regarding the gill flukes and other parasites my tank is planted with sand subsrtate and too difficult to remove. I have 5 x 10cm Discus. Would it be easier if I get a small hospital tank set up to treat them in? And what is the smallest size that would be ok?. Also appreciate if you can let me know best medicines. Thanks again

[TheFish]

A 3ft tank around 150 litres is ideal. However you need to have an established filter/cycled tank before moving the discus.

Treatments for gill flukes you can get from petbarn - aquamaster brand is decent.

Treatment for worms is Big L pig and poultry wormer, available online. There are other threads here detailing how to use it.

[needspeed73]

I had 5 juvenile Discus in a 3ft tank. I treated them with Aquamaster Fluke and worm tablet over 2 weeks. I wasnt concerned about their health and well being as they were eating and growing well. I did it as a precautionary measure.
Im glad i did!!!
Discus are now in a 4x2x2 and look awesome - even for juvies!!
They are much more colourful and slightly more active and DEVOUR food quickly.
I am only new to this also but i can now highly recommend this as a 6 monthly must do that Merrilyn has suggested on many posts.
My only problem is i cant find Big L ANYWHERE!!

[steeledr]

Thanks for all the responses and advice which I have taken - I changed another 60 litres today - tested the water 2 hours after changing - Ammonia .25ppm Nitrite 0 ( its always been 0 and never changes ???) pH 6.4 Nitrate still high almost 40ppm. Fish all seem happy and are looking for more food which is a good sign. I purchased a 2nd 60 litre drum and have mad up 120 litres with Prime which I will change tomorrow. I am hoping after tomorrows 120 litre change ( 50% ) the Ammonia and Nitrate will be under control.
I am happy to treat Discus for Gill Flukes and Parasites as advised but I do not have a spare 3 ft tank that I can set up as a hospital tank. My current 4ft tank is planted with sand substrate - is there a more simple method? How does everybody else treat for Parasites and gill Flukes? Can it be done in a planted tank ? AND I have 7 x Corydoras Julii Catfish - will the medication hurt them? Maybe I have to remove the Discus to treat ? Appreciate advice ?

[needspeed73]

I have since wormed my discus in the 4ft tank with substrate, plants and Cory's.
After much research, i found the main issue with Cory's is them eating the tablets and residue too soon when its on the "floor". I dissolved the 16 tablets (320 litres) into a large disposable cup and very slowly lowered the cup into the tank where the water flow gently crosses the top of the cup. Give it a stir every now and then. I found within 6 odd hours it had mostly dissolved the "left overs". Another quick stir and a small amount spread sparingly around the tank.
Corys are still alive!!
Some say its a waste of money to treat a large tank/volume of water.
I believe it was better to treat everything in the tank and not just the fish!!
I would rather pay the extra $ for piece of mind.
This is just my opinion. i'm no expert and could well be wrong!
Ian

[needspeed73]

This is a photo 48 hours after second dose. (before water change).
If the picture was good enough you can/could see fine white powder in closest left front.

[TheFish]

If you worm in a tank with substrate, your fish will pass the worms, which whether dead or alive will simply fall and get mixed into the substrate. This could include eggs. The worm population will simply be reintroduced in a short while.

In my eyes, very little point worming in a tank that is not barebottom where you can siphon out all the worm remains as soon as they're passed out of you're fish.

[needspeed73]

TheFish,
I understand your point, but the fish in an established planted tank have already dropped their worms into the substrate.
Treating the fish still leaves the point that you are making with the substrate, this is why i understand you treat twice within the week and regular preventative.
I am still new to all of this, but this is why i did it that way. It seemed to make sense.

[TheFish]

Needspeed,

Agreed.

Best practice for all future tanks though is to quarantine in a barebottom treating for worms there, and then moving the fish into the planted tank.

If theyre already in there (in this case) still best to treat, but the chance of worms in future would be much higher. Also can mean the worms in your fish develop an immunity to the drug due to not fully being killed over several lifecycles, and they may just eventually kill your fish (in a sense, you may just be prolonging death).

[steeledr]

Very much appreciate the advise - if I have to purchase and set up another tank ( barebottom ) to medicate the fish what is the smallest tank I need to get for 5 x Discus. My issue is I don't have room for a 3 ft tank and , is it possible to use a 2ft tank or will that stress the fish. OR can I use a 2ft tank and medicate 3 fish, then medicate the other 2. Or is there another easier way? Also if I have to get another tank then do I have to go through the process of cycling it first? Wondering if it was a 2ft tank and I was making large water changes. Once the fish are medicated I dont see the need for the 2nd tank. What does everybody else do??? Appreciate any advice. Thanks very much

[steeledr]

So now I am a little confused - is it ok then if I go ahead and treat with Big L and Aquamaster Fluke Tablets in my planted 4ft tank if I treat twice in a week ( I am just a beginner here but after reading Needspeed73 post, it sounds very reasonable & seems to make sense to me ) - I am thinking its best to give this preventative treatment now and then I have time to work out best method of setting up a smaller hospital tank for future. Does this sound ok???

[Ghoti]

As a once off treating in your planted tank is better than not treating.

You could run a small sponge filter in your planted tank, then next time you need to yeast you can grab your hospital tank, half fill from your planted Tank, top up and pop in the already cycled sponge filter and you are away.

I do mine in batches using this method without issue.

Cheers,
Scott

[steeledr]

Hey Ghoti, What a great idea, thanks very much for the advice. I will do the 1st medication in my planted tank, I have a spare canister filter that I can run as well as the sump, then I will get hospital tank and transfer 50% of water from established tank when I do the next worming as suggested. Great advice, thank you! :D

[steeledr]

Update - today I made 110 litre water change - 1.5 hours after pH 6.4 Ammonia/Ammonium .25ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20ppm, Kh 3, gH 71.6. I am not sure about the gH and kH are those levels ok? Its good the Nitrate has dropped to 20ppm but I was expecting the Ammonia/Ammonium to be 0. All the fish appear to be happy. I have made up another 120 litres, when and how much should I change. Is it recommended taht I should do another 120 litre change tomorrow OR should I wait til Saturday OR should I reduce now to 60 litre changes?

[broadfoot]

It's good to see Nitrates going down.
Your kH is fine, but the gH is high.

When you've said you'll make up another 12 litres, could you describe what process you're going through to make up the water. Specifically, what are you adding to the water?