Cloudy Eye, Not Eating, Poor Water

[ElleisaS]

Hi Guys

I got 3 small (5cm) Pigeon Blood discus last week.

We have a
-135L tank - had been running for a week just with tap water (declorined with Prime).
-A cheap powerhead filter with bubbles (900L/h) - when I get time, I have a Eheim Canister filter to set up.
-A few tall ornaments (one I've used to 'block' the powerhead so it doesn't blow the fish around, a small javafern in a pot - we have an Aquarium Light

Tank Temperature ~28degC ~84degF
PH ~7.4
Had 13 Neon Tetras, 1 Yoyo Loach, 6 small (2cm) Bristlenose Catfish - also all new the same day.


50% water change just before adding fish.
We had a couple Neon Tetras die the next morning, so got our water tested at a LFS, and our Nitrite level was 5 ppm, nothing else was abnormal. I got some Stability that they recommended (to battle new tank syndrome - adds 'good' bacteria). 50% water change that afternoon.

Through the week I've been changing ~20% water daily, and siphoning poo and food out normally 3 times a day. Each change, I've added Stability and Prime (as per labels). Attempted feeding morning and nights.
We've had a total of 9 Neon Tetras die, 4 remain. the Discus have been fine until yesterday when I noticed the largest one has cloudy eyes, a few quick searches tells me 'Cloudy Eye' is a disease cause from poor water conditions, sigh 60% water change last night. The Cloudy Eye Discus isn't staying with the others, but I think it's cos he can't see properly (bumps his head on things, and always sits on the bottom between vertical and 45degrees on the side).

I decided not to quaranten my cloudy eyed discus - dont want him to be alone, and I don't think it's contageous?

Food wise, my variety of food is quite a story (but nevermind)
They're not eating yet (neons eat though):
I've got floating cichlid pellets
Tropical flakes
Discus Bio-Gold sinking pellets
Discus Magic sinking pellets

All up I've probably seen 6 items of food been eaten - but normally spat out.

Could you give me any advice/opinions?
My bottle of Stability is running out, and I'm not sure it works
A week seems a bit long for them not to start feeding, and this water quality thing is driving my head in :(



Side notes:
-A friend got us a huge (~10-12cm) Blue Snakeskin Discus yesterday, She is feeding already (Discus Magic pellets) and looks super healthy. And the little Pidgeonbloods love to hang out with her :D
-They all like to hide... (more-so the little pigeons)


These are my first Discus, and I love them dearly.
I've been trying to get some photos, but they keep moving! :(
Thanks, Elleisa

[rburrowes]

Hi Elleisa,

Welcome to the forum, Im not what you would call an expert but here are a my 2 cents.

1. You are experiencing new tank syndrome. Usually a tank can take a month before its cycled. Not doing the initial cycle can cause all sorts of issues, which is causing what your experiencing at the moment
2. 1 Discus = 50 litres of water, so its overstocked.
3. Catfish poop alot, adding ammonia and nitrates to your tank, something your trying to remove at this point in time.
4. Increase the tank temp to 30 degrees and add salt (Do a search around here to get exact measurements)
5. Ive seen new discus go without food for a couple of weeks, so dont worry about that, leave the tank dark so they can get used to there suroundings.
6. Stay away from chemicals at this point in time, lots of water changes and follow step 4 and you should see them get better.

Cheers
Rob

[Ghoti]

Epsom salt, 1tbs per 40lt of water.

Cheers,
Scott

[ElleisaS]

Epsom salt, 1tbs per 40lt of water.

Thanks for exactness Ghoti! :D - I assume level tablespoon - could you/anyone confirm level tablespoon as opposed to heaped?


1. You are experiencing new tank syndrome. Usually a tank can take a month before its cycled. Not doing the initial cycle can cause all sorts of issues, which is causing what your experiencing at the moment
2. 1 Discus = 50 litres of water, so its overstocked.
3. Catfish poop alot, adding ammonia and nitrates to your tank, something your trying to remove at this point in time.
4. Increase the tank temp to 30 degrees and add salt (Do a search around here to get exact measurements)
5. Ive seen new discus go without food for a couple of weeks, so dont worry about that, leave the tank dark so they can get used to there suroundings.
6. Stay away from chemicals at this point in time, lots of water changes and follow step 4 and you should see them get better.
Thanks Rob! - I taken most of that into consideration :)


It's been a week and my nitrites are still around 5ppm :C my discus has gotten worse overnight - one eye is super puffed out, both quite cloudy, and he's just swimming in circles (somewhat upright) at the surface...

I've raised temp to 30 degC and I will feed less often and smaller quantities - less food leftover, less poop, less nitrites. I'm keeping the tank darker (no light), but there's still natural light of course). adding salt slowly over the next 24 hrs, as per quantities above.

do lots of what changes.... People might find this interesting, I went and spoke to the breeder of my discus, and he shed some different light, "stop changing water". He went on to explain:
- it's a new tank, the problem is there isn't enough good bacteria in the filter to break down nitrites, right? Everytime I do a water change, I lose half the good bacteria I'm trying to grow! :O I've got a crap powerhead filter with 'biological' media... it's throughput is 900L/H, bacteria can't grow/attach to the sponge! He went on to say, set the Canister filter up ASAP, as its greater volume means slower current through the filter media itself and thus bacteria can grow faster...


And.... as a newbie I made the worst possible mistake possible! - I bought the canister filter 2nd hand, fine, until I decided to clean it (wash out all the junk and stuff - it needed it) aanddd.... then I used tap water to clean it.... the chlorine kills all the bacteria.... :C so I've run it for a while with Prime (declorinate), then pumped some Stability (good bacteria starter) through it - hopefully it'll be working properly in a few days :S


All thoughts/suggestions/comments super welcomed!

... I'm getting the feeling that the cloudy eyed discus will die, but the other fish should be ok.

Thanks, Elleisa[/quote]

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Elleisa,

In my opinion your best option in regards to filtration is to contact the breeder and ask if they would be willing to swap some old media for new media. Determine the amount, buy that amount at a retailer, do the swap, take home the old media and put it in your filter.

I am surprised that you have nitrItes as this is indicates that you have nitrsomonas bacteria converting ammonia to nitrIte in the first stage of the nitrogen cycle.

Both ammonia and nitrIte are highly toxic to fish and your readings for both should be zero. Nitrates are tolerated by many fish but your discus won't like readings much above 20 ppm.

At temperatures above 28 your neons and b/n are going to be suffering as they prefer water temps around 24 - 26.

There are actually very few of the good bacteria in the water column. They colonise your filter media and do their job during the time the water, with all the nasties, is in contact with the media.

Remember that your fish will be quite stressed in the new environment, your nitrIte levels are another "stressor". If the water parameters of the water you are putting in during changes, are not the same as the water in the tank, ie, temp, pH, gH, kH, etc. this will add another stressor to your situation.

Given appropriate conditions discus are a tough fish and can cope with a lot. The conditions you have provided them with are far from ideal.

Good luck,

Bob

[swifto]

Hi,
I agree with bob about being a tough fish & taking a lot,I'm currently removing sub straight from tank with discus still in tank.

[ElleisaS]

At temperatures above 28 your neons and b/n are going to be suffering as they prefer water temps around 24 - 26.

I'll keep an eye on them but they seem pretty happy so far, these hot days lately - I'd need a tank cooler to get the temp below 29deg... :/


There are actually very few of the good bacteria in the water column. They colonise your filter media and do their job during the time the water, with all the nasties, is in contact with the media.

so what changes shouldn't 'remove' good bacteria...

I've noticed this morning that his eye has kind of like a stringy (fungus?) coming out of the middle.
So I've tried to sketch it, His eyes are quite red around the edge, one side is puffed out a lot more than the other (the side with the stringy bits)

I'm thinking should I quarantine him into a seperate tank and maybe use some meds? - I haven't found any online topics about stringy stuff in their eyes...

Should I re-start doing some water changes in the main tank? - or just separate the sick discus and cycle his?

Thanks

[TheFish]

My tips:

- Smaller water changes, daily at this point, will help assist the good bacteria to establish itself. Larger water changes, like the 50% ones will just be preventing the establishment of any bacteria

- I would separate the sick discus. I'd go back to the breeder and ask to borrow an established sponge filter or two. Or better grab as much canister filter media (that is used, hence having good bacteria on it already) from him, go home and set all this up

.- Definately cut down on feedings, no point feeding if the fish is not eating, you are just polluting the water

- Do a search on the nitrogen cycle. This point is vital to understand. Most of the problems in the fishkeeping hobby are easily solved by a greater understanding, and its great that you've come to this forum as the advice given is pretty good. All fish, and particularly discus require patience, a slow setup period etc so take your time with things in the future, add fish slowly and things tend to work out better.

- Keep dosing with prime as this detoxifies nitrites (at least from tap water)

- Also its generally advisable to age your water. That is put it in a bucket, heat it, aerate it with a pump or air pump (this is crucial for gassing off chlorine), and then the next day you can perform the waterchange. I use a big 200L barrel for this.

Any other q's do ask!

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Again Elleisa,

If you have ammonia a colony of nitrosomonas bacteria will establish, over time.

When you have a colony of nitrosomonas converting ammonia to nitrIte, you will, over time, have a colony of nitrobacter establish in and on your filter media. These guys will then convert nitrIte to nitrAte.

The % of ammonia and nitrIte do not need to be massive to have these guys set up house. The higher your count on ammonia and nitrIte the more likely your fish are to die. Remember that both of these substances/chemicals are highly toxic to all fish.

As I suggested in my previous post your best option to get your nitrItes under control is to swap some new media with your breeder for "mature" media. Do not suggest a direct swap of some of your old media for some of his.

If you are wanting to keep other fish with your discus I strongly recommend something that can tolerate the higher temperatures required by discus. Some tetra options include, cardinals (much more espensive than neons but able to cope with the conditions), black phantoms (while small these guys put on a great display in good water conditions) or rummy nose (if the head on these guys is not bright red you have a looming water condition crisis) they also engage in spawning activities in my tank very regularly in the early morning.

Yoyos tend to do better with some mates but are not Amazonian fish. They are good for snail control though if you have a snail problem.

There are a number of smaller plecostomas that will do better in your tank (once settled) that would take care of your algae but they need to have some driftwood in the tank.

Not sure about what you have drawn on the eye of your discus but does it appear to have a "body" then the tentacles at the top? If so this could be a hydra. Recommend doing a google search on these guys.

Regards,

Bob

[Hooked]

Hi there,

I'm with BobbyBruce's suggestions. If you have elevated levels of Ammonia and or Nitrite already in your tank I would be water changing to dilute them as a priority, not worrying about slowing down the seeding of the filter. The suggestion of swapping some used filter media with someone to introduce the two types of required bacteria is an excellent one. Just remember to find someone close by. Obtain the media in a container with some of their tank water, get it home as quick as you can and get it in your cleaned out canister filter with water running through it without delay. The bacteria needs water running past it to survive. From memory you are good for about a MAX time of 45mins. That is, have all the filter connections done before going to pick up the media so that as soon as its filled you can close it up, syphon water into it to fill it and then you are away. With the Eheims, the inlet is on the bottom of the cannister and outlet at the top. If you have it rigged up, then when you close it, just suck on the end of the outlet pipe. The water will come in the bottom of the filter and the air will be mostly expelled through the top. Turn it on, then you will have a bit of air that will work its way out over the next roughly 30mins, but should be fairly quiet soon after turning it on as it runs. Eheims are great filters, the best in my opinion.
Perhaps a forum member can help you out with media if breeder to far away? Try for someone that has not introduced new fish into their aquarium for an extended period, that way you have less likelihood of picking up diseases.

Also your question about "what changes" they are talking about, if I have understood you correctly... Water changes

I found this on Hydra, might help?

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=102243&highlight=hydra#102243


Cheers

[ElleisaS]

Thanks everyone - really appreciating the input! :D

So I'm doing small water changes, I've added the epsom salt, I've also done a big dose of Prime (I read on the bottle that you can use 5 times dosage to neutralize NitrItes in an emergency).

The breeder only has sponge filters, even in his larger tanks, and isn't able to lend me one, my friends nearby only have powerhead filters, and they're all from Cichlid tanks.... so I don't think that will work too great.

Hooked - those Hydra are creepy!! :shock: I don't have them luckily.
To clarify on what I said about the stringy part - It looked like when you have an open wound, then get fluff stuck to it... (great analogy). the fluff seems to have gone now though.

one eye now has two 'bumps' on it, the fish mainly bobs around at the surface (mouth upright - and often mouth out of water), ocasionally freaks out and spirals around for a bit...

I've added some photos of its eyes, its also getting white spots around its head (not sure how well this turned out in the pics)

its looking like a pretty bad fungal infection to me, I've been thinking to try methylene blue baths, I've found some info that I stole from Simply Discus http://www.kordon.com/kordon/methylene_blue/index.htm, but I guess it depends what products my LFS has.
I'll put the sick fish in a bucket with an airstone & heater for 30mins.


Anyone have an oppinion on Methylene blue baths or the images?
Again, Thanks

[ElleisaS]

Max 3 attachments per post...

[swifto]

Could it b pop eye?

[ElleisaS]

Could it b pop eye?
I didn't really think about this, but you may be right, I did some quick reading, http://www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/dec07/fish-popeye.htm - this page was pretty good.

Pop-Eye can be caused from bacteria infection or poor water - seems like my case, they suggest separating it, and doing more WC and high dose of epsom salts.

But if it has pop-eye, it still has another infection - as there are individual bumps on it's eyes, which look alot like fungi...

I'm going to methylene blue bath it this afternoon, unless I got better ideas?

[ILLUSN]

you can't save that fish.

That fish has popeye and is suffering from a massive internal bacterial infection. if you have some clove oil add the fish to 1/2 a bucket of tank water with an air stone and add clove oil drop by drop by drop untill the fish calms down and dies .

make the fish as comfortable as possible.

DO NOT add any new fish to your tank.

DO NOT add any meds to your tank.

Stop adding epson salts and add normal salt.
Nitirite causes "brown blood disease" the reason your fish gasp is because the heamoglobin in their blood cannot transport enough oxygen adding normal salt (rock salt or pool salt NOT table salt $6 for 20kg from bunnings will last you years) will stop this effect build up the dose to 1tsp/ 4L over a day or so so as not to shock the fish (start at 1 tsp/40L then add it bit by bit).

Keep doing your water changes (re dose salt to keep the concentration at 1tsp/4L) make sure ammonia is at 0 nitrites are at 0 it will take MONTHS for your tank to cycle propperly you will have to put in the hrad yards untill it does. Its safe to keep adding prime (anything more then a 3x dose is a waste) and stability, but the stability wont do much IMHO.

feed once or 2x a day small feeds as much as the fish eat in 30 seconds or so, after each feed clean the uneaten food out of the tank.

[ElleisaS]

you can't save that fish. :cry:
I'll need to get some clove oil - I only have olive and canola...
I had a Yoyo loach with the same looking infection (noticed on the same day) (puffed and cloudy eyes) but also had a really red head, He's almost recoved - swelling and redness is gone, just a small patch of cloudiness remaining...


Stop adding epson salts and add normal salt.... rock salt or pool salt NOT table salt... build up the dose to 1tsp/ 4L... start at 1 tsp/40L then add it bit by bit...
I thought Epsom salts were meant to be 'safer' for the fish - as that's what is normally suggested by LFS etc...


it will take MONTHS for your tank to cycle propperly
Really? most people are saying a few days to a couple weeks? (Breeder, LFS, other forum threads)


Its safe to keep adding prime ... and stability, but the stability wont do much IMHO.
Ok - Do you/anyone know how often to dose with Prime? - Stability has it written on the bottle for continued use, but Prime only has about one-off treatments...

[ElleisaS]

So went out shopping, I have 3 LFS in my area, none of them had methylene blue :? I thought my ph test kit used it, but it's bromothymol blue :(

I ran out of time to go to the supermarket and get cheap pool salt or clove oil. So I grabbed some aquarium salt from a LFS.

I've set up a 10L QT tank with 3x dose of Prime, 50% new water, and recommended doses of Melafix (anti-Bacterial) and Primafix (anti-Fungal).
I've got a heater at 30deg in there and an air stone, I have a HOB filter for it, but I'd need to remove the carbon from it (for the meds to work) - so it'd be just circulating water... I will slowly add the aquarium salt up to 1tsp per 4L.

If there's no improvement tonight.... :cry: <- lots of it


Now to confirm something: I added epsom salt to my main tank - but I few comments and threads I read tells me Epsom salt is bad unless treating fish for bloating... I guess I should slowly WC the Epsom salts out of the tank right?

[swifto]

Don't add any more salt to main tank for a month & just do regular w/c this will eventually remove the salt content.

[ElleisaS]

Thanks everyone sooo much for your help and suggestions.

I put the fish down tonight, it was getting worse (lying on its side more)... managed to jump out of the tank as well at one point (luckily I was nearby).

:cry:

my local pharmacy didn't have big enough bottles of clove oil,

For those who need to know how to put down a fish safely:
I got a jug, filled it with ice and cold water, It was the most humane way I could think of, less than 5 seconds till eternal sleep....

Thanks guys! :'-(

PS - all the fish in the main tank look good, the discus haven't started eating properly, but I'm sure it'll be fine in time

Elleisa

[Woodsie]

Just curious where in Brisbane you bought those discus?

[ElleisaS]

Just curious where in Brisbane you bought those discus?

Theres a seller in East Brisbane (suburb), He's got an add on Gumtree
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/east-brisbane/fish/discus-fish-for-sale-brisbane/1005780840

Tell him Monty sent you :wink:
(My husband bought the fish)

[ILLUSN]

you can't save that fish. :cry:
I'll need to get some clove oil - I only have olive and canola...
I had a Yoyo loach with the same looking infection (noticed on the same day) (puffed and cloudy eyes) but also had a really red head, He's almost recoved - swelling and redness is gone, just a small patch of cloudiness remaining...


Stop adding epson salts and add normal salt.... rock salt or pool salt NOT table salt... build up the dose to 1tsp/ 4L... start at 1 tsp/40L then add it bit by bit...
I thought Epsom salts were meant to be 'safer' for the fish - as that's what is normally suggested by LFS etc...


it will take MONTHS for your tank to cycle propperly
Really? most people are saying a few days to a couple weeks? (Breeder, LFS, other forum threads)


Its safe to keep adding prime ... and stability, but the stability wont do much IMHO.
Ok - Do you/anyone know how often to dose with Prime? - Stability has it written on the bottle for continued use, but Prime only has about one-off treatments...

wow that stuff above looks messy.

always have some clove oil on hand its fast and painless you'll never need more then 5-6 drops for half a bucket

in a fishless cycle you can have ammonia in 3 days -1 week nitrite in 2-3 weeks and nitrate in 4-6 weeks. this is a full cycle and ready for fish.

in your situation the ammonia levels needed for the nitrosomas bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite would kill your discus so this process that should take 2 weeks or so could take a month.
Worse is the species needed to convert nitrite to nitrate will also take a month.
Ammonia can be neutrilised with a low ph (converts ammonia to ammonium with is much less toxic).
Nitirite is a much bigger problem, it is more toxic then ammonia (my previous point on brown blood disease) NaCL (salt) will inhibit this. you still want to keep the levels as low as possible for the sake of your fish but by removing the nitrite the bacterial species have nood food source and so cant populate to complete your cycle to nitrate.

heres an example of a realitic timeframe.
as a rule of thumb always take what your LFS says with a grain of salt, their job is to sell stuff to you.

also from experience of other members here melafix and pima fix dont work on discus (something to do with their slime coat) have a read through some of the old posts in the forum and you'll be in good step.

Please dont get discouraged, Discus are as challanging as they are majestic. They are well worth the effort.

[ElleisaS]

Thanks everyone.

Consider this topic resolved.

Had our water tested the other day..... NitrItes = 0! :D (all other levels negligible)
So I think our filter has 'cycled' :D

all the fish are happy now :)

Elleisa