Rapid respiration - again!

[Bill T.]

...or am I making more out of this than I should?
I recently completed a second course of Sterazin to treat what looked like gill flukes. Fish looked great for about three days, then respiration started to increase again, with occasional scratching (but not much). Yesterday one of the smaller discus was hovering at the water surface, so I treated the whole tank with Aquamaster Gill & Fluke (which is basically Prazi.) A little improvement by today. Also other fish like cardinal tetras breathing fast.

Ammonium & Nitrite = 0. Nitrate </= 5ppm. kH=4dkh, gH=9dh.
Respiration rate for medium discus = 80 beats per minute. Smaller ones are faster.

Q: How long should it take for the fish to settle down?
Q: Is 80 beats per second too fast?
Q: I crushed and dissolved the Prazi tablets in aquarium water. There was some white residue in the jug I used for dissolving. Should I have put all of this in the tank? If yes, I may have under dosed - should I redose?
Q: Should I turn off the U.V. during Prazi treatment?
Q: Have I missed something? Could there be another cause for these symptoms? Bacterial infection, for instance?
Q: How important is it to clean the filters after Prazi? I run two Eheim external canisters (one each end).

Ladyred, if you read this, did you get the e-mail I sent you - hope that was O.K. to send.

[Merrilyn]

Got your email Bill. That's fine. I don't mind at all.

One thought comes to mind, do you have activated carbon in your filters. That will strip medication out of the water before it has time to work.

Have you got an airstone in the tank as well as the eheims. I found that the spraybar on it's own didn't push enough oxygen into the water and had to add airstones in all of my tanks.

When I dissolve the tablets, I put all the powder into the tank, but I don't think it would have made a big difference in this case. You need to do a follow up treatment with fluke tablets anyway, so make sure everything goes in next time.

Eighty beats per minute isn't really too bad, and it's normal for smaller fish to have a faster breathing rate. Everything else looks fine to me.

[mistakes r crucial]

I turn my UV's off whilst medicating with anything but with Waterlife products it's a must do.
MAC

[Bill T.]

Thanks ladyred.
I have taken the carbon mats out of my filters, for that very reason.

I'm looking into an airstone - next pay period.

Q: Will discus fish scratch now and then without flukes, etc? (I know I do....)

Mistakes R.
Thanks for your feedback. As a matter of interest, which Waterlife products have you used, and to what effect? Do you think Sterazine works? Would you be interested in some Octozin? I'm getting some sent to me direct from Waterlife as it is not available at lfs.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Bill,

I have a large tub of Octazin and fortunately don't have to use it often but thanks for the offer. It has worked very well for me but I've only had to use it a couple of times so nothing conclusive on offer here.

I have also used Myxazin with good results but again, have only had to use it a couple of times on some Gold Rams that had a fungal problem that wouldn't go away. The Myxazin moved it in a week.

As far as Sterazin is concerned the jury's still out, I'm not totally convinced as yet. It seems to have worked to an extent but I am still fighting flukes and have been for the last 6 weeks. I've treated with both Sterazin and Prazi so this morning I rang Karin Mogg (excellent fish vet with Phd on fish) and I'm taking two affected fish down to her later today for a biopsy, not an autopsy as one of my mates thought when I told him lol!

I think Waterlife have changed Sterazin since the old days, some of the bottles my mates have are totally different in dosage rates etc. They also say repeatedly that it is so gentle on any fish, I wonder if it may be a little too gentle these days. I'm going to try some alternatives on the advice of Karin Mogg and will let you know how I go. There are lots of them but some seem to me to be an absolute last resort ie Potassium Permanganate, Dylox etc. Very harsh and dangerous from what I've read.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

MAC do keep us posted on what you learn about your fish. We'd all love to hear what Karin has to say.

[mistakes r crucial]

Well guys, that was a rather morbid trip to the vets, not with my fish so much but in general when dealing with imported Discus at the moment.

She obviously deals with a few importers and lately there have been many fish coming across with Capillaria. She has also had to deal with a whole Discus shipment recently that had TB, scary stuff.

As far as mine were concerned she said that she could do the biopsy but because I wanted them alive she would have to sedate and then recover them which very often stressed the fish so much they died anyway. As I am convinced they only have flukes, are still eating, looking healthy and worth a couple of hundred bucks each I declined the offer. However, she did say if the situation worsens and one of the fish looks like it won't recover take it down to her and she will perform the biopsy. The report they offer is very thorough, it would give us just about every bacteria that is in the fish and the tanks/system. All this for about $30, I was impressed.

We went through alternatives to Prazi but I didn't learn anything new, permanganate, Dylox were mentioned, both dangerous and not for me right now. Dylox will/can permanently damage the nervous system of fish and according to Karin you have to be very sure of what you are doing and why you are using it.

Her advice for now, keep up the good husbandry practises, good diet, stick with Prazi and if that doesn't work I will have to sacrifice a fish for the benefit of the rest. Let's hope it's a runt but the two I have eat like pigs, show no signs of flukes and chase fish 3 times their size! We'll see what happens.
MAC

[Bill T.]

MRC:
Thanks for your info. I spoke to Waterlife direct. They advised you can dose with Sterazine at the prescribed rate, twice a day for 12 days straight with no harm to the fish - they are confident this approach would get rid of all gill flukes - so I think you might be right. Sterazine may be gentle, on fish and flukes alike.

My fish all look prety comfortable right now at 60 hours post Prazi.

After hearing what you said about the state of imported fish, I'm setting up a quaratine tank pronto as I do want to increase my stock over the next month or so.

[mistakes r crucial]

At 65 bucks a bottle treating 3000 litres Im sure they are very happy for us all to treat 12 days straight! Off the top of my head I think that would cost me $260 for the treatment. Mmmmmm.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Thanks guys. I'm going to make this a sticky, so the information is available to everyone.

[mistakes r crucial]

With regards to Prazi can we put our heads together and see who can come up with the best and least expensive form/supplier possible. Up here on the Coast I have been able to source around 70 175mg tablets for about $200, she gave me a rough quote. Individual tablets were $13 each, I nearly died of shock. All the contacts I have made have pointed me in the direction of local vets but unfortunately they are very expensive as they don't deal in large numbers. The wholesalers won't deal with the public and the amount I use to treat both my systems definitely counts pet shops out.

Any and all replies very much appreciated.
MAC

[Ben]

Mac, after a bit of research, prazi seems to be commonly used with horses. It comes in a lot of forms such as pastes and gels but it is available in a tablet form that is given to horses. Maybe you could try either an equariun centre or a vet that specializes in horses.
I hope this might help a little,

goodluck and keep us posted!
Ben

[kkiu]

Prazi can also be taken for human medication to treat tap worms. Maybe the local pharmacy might be of use.

Prazi (fluke and tap worm tabs by aquamaster) can be bought at 25tabs for $7.95 at monacos in canley vale (is product/vendor endorsement allowed?)

Im curious as no one has mentioned trichlorifon to treat for flukes.
I was going to treat with it myself on my tank, but heat treatment and salt seems to be working atm. (34 degrees for a week).

Tricholorifon is a lot cheaper than Prazi btw.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Kkiu,

We did mention trichlorifon, it is the active ingredient in Dylox! I have said before that every one to their own but here is just one snippit of information I have read on this drug:

"Dylox (Trichlorofon)is an organophosphate, available as an over-the-counter preparation under such names as LifeBearer, Di!ox, Clout, Masoten and Anti-parasite. This drug is effective against protozoa, gill and body flukes, and to a lesser extent, Capillaria, but is highly stressful and potentially toxic to fish. Dylox treatment will make the fish nervous and will increase their respiration. Dylox. a neurotoxin, is very injurious to humans, and it is easily absorbed through the skin and mucous membranes. So you must be very careful not to inhale it or handle it without protective rubber gloves. Dylox is very effective, but some strains of body fluke have developed a resistance to it, so its usefulness may vary."

I think it is carconogenic, can be absorbed through the skin and very toxic to some fish. A last resort in my mind but they're only my thoughts.
MAC

[Bill T.]

I too have discoverred Aquamaster Fluke & Tapeworm (ie Prazi.).

Q: Is it really necessary to clean my canister filters after Prazi treatment? I did last night but could not see any residue or other visible reasons for cleaning them.
Q: I find my discus have done some huge black castings, which seem attached to the vent by a long transparent thread - takes a while for this to break. Is this significant? They have also become a bit picky with food.

[mistakes r crucial]

Bill,

After thinking about your earlier post it poses a question. If they (Waterlife) are confident that the appropriate dose of Sterazin twice a day for 12 days will erradicate flukes why do they advertise/direct us to use one quarter of that amount on the bottle ie one dose on days 1,3,6,8 and 10 to do the same job? I appreciate there are different levels of flukes in all fish but if we buy a product to fix a particular problem I think we can quite rightly assume that it will do the job at the advertised and prescribed rate/dosage.

I am most certainly not asking questions of you but come on Waterlife, what's the go here? There are many fish keepers/breeders that don't want or need the consumer warm and fuzzy stuff, the amount of fish they keep they need results and need them now! Do we really have to go through 2 full courses of treatment and still have the problem and stand there scratching our heads? If that's the case then it's a very sad one! If it takes a mindful and inquisative forum member to tell us how to get results from a commercial medication then I am worried to say the least!
MAC

[Bill T.]

Same!

[Merrilyn]

Drug resistant strains is a problem we are hearing more and more of today. Somewhere along the line, our fish have been treated with a weaker dose of meds than required, The result is that although some of the bugs are killed, some are not, and develop an increased resistance to meds. They reproduce, and their offspring are also resistant.

A normal dose is no longer enough. These resistant bugs are simply not affected by normal doses, so higher and higher doses are needed. Eventually that drug is no longer effective, and we have to resort to another, more toxic drug to eradicate the gill and body flukes.

I don't know what the answer is. All we can do, as responsible hobbyists, is to make sure that when we use drugs, we use the full recommended dose, and if a second dose is recommended, we give the required repeat treatment.

[Bill T.]

I'm not religious, but Amen!

The human world is now plagued by super bugs and strains of old bugs that have developed a resistance to current medications. Recent strains of Malaria, for instance, are virtually untreatable today. You either beat the disease or die on your own resources!!!!

This has come about by innapropraite and careless use of antibiotics.
People take only part of the dose until they feel better, most of the bacteria are killed off, but not all. The remaining bugs are genetically stronger and resistant to medication, so they pass this on to their offspring - a new generation of genetically evolved bugs emerge.

Nature at work.

I am concerned also that with hybrid fish like today's discus which have been bred and interbred, their immune systems may be genetically decaying, so we have double trouble. Less immune fish and more virulent bugs.

So if you have a fish that has survived when others have died, this would be a good one to breed from. I personally would pay more for stronger fish - some sort of certification would be required for authentication pre-purchase?

Any breeders out there with extra sturdy stock? Please let me know.

[dazzman]

Has anyone used pp for this before? I hav spent $$ on meds and nothing seem to work. There was one time I had this problem and the tank was like a time bomb. ever so often the buggers will start trashing around and some even jumped out. tried everything but with little success then as a last resort I used pp and pp-fied the whole tank. It worked. This stuff has to be taken really seriously though. I have lost fish to this before when I dosed 2 adults in a long term bath but the mix was sitting there for a while and I guess it just got really concentrated. Short term bath and into a sterile tank is the way to go. at least this way, u can pull them out when u see a problem. I'm not saying that this is the best way to do it but it has worked for me. just thought i share.

[mistakes r crucial]

Pottasium Permangenate is still used by some people, I haven't used it myself but may have to in the future if drugs such as Trichlorofon become as useless as Prazi.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for sharing that dazzman. Would you like to write a brief article on treating with PP and the results you had with it, length of treatment, dose etc, and I will make a sticky of it here.

If we all put our heads together, and collate all our experiences, I'm sure we can come up with a solution.

Once all the information has been gathered, I will put it all into one big article, so anyone with problems can go to one area for all the information.

[dazzman]

No worries ladyred,

I think I'll start from the stock solution.

I mix 1g of pp crystals into 1 litre of distilled water and this would give me 1mg/l. you can mix it twice stronger at 2mg/l but I prefer to make it more dilutted just to be safe. you can get these crystals from a pharmacy. It's not a prescribed thing and it comes in a glass bottle. It's pretty cheap too.

After you've mixed it, you'll probably not use all of it at once, so keep it in a dark cool place and throw it out when it becomes a year old. That was the mistake I did a while back with 2 of my adults now in heaven. I had some left overs that have been sitting there for a while and rather than mixing a new batch, I used it for a long term bath and they died. dam... I think the water in the solution may have evaporated and made it more concentrated so although my dose was right, the solution was way too strong. anywaz....

Now a word of caution. DO NOT USE IT WHEN THERE'S FORMALIN PRESENT. the vapours are explosive....

pp works as an oxidising agent and it literally burns up anything organic. First it strips the layer of slime along with any bugs attached to it then if the dose is too stong, it will start burning the skin, gills and all. So be careful.

some prep have to be done first to make the treatment more effective. Give the tank a wipe down and change bout 50% of the water. I use it at 2ml/litre from stock solution for a long term bath and the water should remain purplelish-pink for 4 hours. It will start turning brown as it head towards the end of it's course. I feel that this method is not quite as effective due to a number of factors. The dose may not be strong enough..... There may be too much crap in the tank that it is used up before it even get to the bugs and worst of all, too strong a dose will kill them.

I would reccommend a shorth term bath at 10ml/litre from stock for 30mins. This way you can watch them and if you suspect something wrong, you can bail the them out immediately. Prepare a sterilished tank before you do this and add some salt to encourage slime production. do not use anything from the infected tank as you may be transferring some eggs over.

After adding in the dose, the fish might freak due to the color. Or you can use a pail premixed with water from the same tank. put an air stone and heater because they are going to be in there for a while. I usually scoop one at a time with a bigger net and just leave it in the net while in the pail. Usually the fish will be pretty calm if handled like driving miss daisy. So once the 30mins are up, put them in the sterile tank and let them rest. I feel that by doing this, most of the bugs will be shredded along with the slime and the fish will be more comfortable.

I have used this method a couple of times and it has worked but be really careful with this stuff. Check your calculations over and be sure that it's right before doing it.

I think that's all of it. Hope my explanation made sense.

ps: Made some editing as I realised, after looking again, that I sounded kindda cocky. Didn't mean to folks.

daz

[brew3]

1 mg/l = 1 ppm
1g/l = 1000ppm

[fishhead]

most gill flukes are no longer affected by trichlorifon which can have some terrible sometimes fatal side effects. if your fish are suffering from perhaps heat related lack of oxygen,you can check by placing a couple of mils of hydrogen peroxide In your tank this will oxygenate the water to see if we really have gill flukes.more fish die from medication then the disease.so think before medicating.pp can work sometimes but can also oxidise the gills before killing the bug.I`ve had some success by placing a powerded prazi tablet (vet grade)in a bucket of the fishes tank water with two tablespoons of cooking salt and a airstone.leave as long as you think the fish can stand it. If this fails try the same with the formalin and salt.good luck.

[mistakes r crucial]

Since when did Trichlorofon stop working? First I've heard of it.
MAC

[fishhead]

Since 1991 to be exact, you seem to be 16 years behind. Sorry couldn't help myself. But its true. dylox is still effective in some cases, but many domestic strains are imune and are popping up more often. I run a fish hatchery and work for an aquarium product importer on weekends as a consultant for customers with fish problems and as such, I have seen dylox fail more and more often. Don't misunderstand me I still use dylox first but always have alternatives ready. Much has been writen on this around the world, I'm supprised you haven't heard. One such quote by discus authority Thomas A. Giovanetti. In his book DISCUS FISH 1991. Quote page 69 on prazi. In his words "flukes on wild caght discus will be immediately killed by dylox, but tank raised discus may carry flukes that have developed a resistance to dylox. Recent tests demonstrate that some flukes have developed a resistance to an amount of dylox above the leathal dose for the fish." Yes thats right you have to kill the fish for a cure. Not the way I want to go.

[mistakes r crucial]

Well IME I have one thing to say to that, what a load of bollucks!

I have a question, what are "vet grade medications"? Next one, where are you from, if it's not Australia do you have different strains of flukes where you are? Looks like you recommend Prazi for flukes, for most serious hobbyists, semi and professional breeders that med went out with the arc for flukes, they are very much getting resistant to it. Maybe you have a far stronger version with your vet grade. Please let us know so we can all use it.
MAC

[benjohnson]

I bought a new bottle of sterazin at the weekend.... as I had run out of my current bottle half way through a treatment...

Read the instructions..... the dosage instructions are totally different !!!! :roll:

The new bottle wants me to dose them with half the amount instructed on the last bottle...

I have had great success with all waterlife products previously , Myaxazin was particularly good, but I need something I can rely on .... are we wasting our time with this particular product from waterlife ???

[scott bowler]

they have done that here too they have changed the dose becouse of strangth know they have doubled the strange it think that is on the bottle to, i always us this product and have never had a prob with it . the only thing was here is Austraila the took octozin of the market but it is back now so all is good .

[mistakes r crucial]

I'm probably the wrong person to answer your question about Sterazin as I am totally biased, I think it's useless. However, I have breeding friends that love the stuff. You will find that the dosages have changed depending on when you bought it. My last bottle was "double strength" and from England so the dosage was different again. My biggest problem with Waterlife is that they never mention the ingredients on the bottle which IMO should be outlawed and if you are running thousands of litres of water it is 5 times the price of other products. For me, regardless of the dosage, it simply did not work. These days I use my vet and not commercial products. The advice you get is generally better than your LFS and the meds work.
MAC

[fishhead]

Yes I do favour Prazi over Dylox, yes it has been around a long time but using generic meds. Prazi still works the best if combined with salt. Yes I did quote vet grade because it is fresher and definetly works better. Because aquarium meds sometimes sit on the shelf for years before being sold. You challenge information I submitted on Dylox which was quoted from the book Discus Fish as bollocks. The minds behind that research include Thomas A Giovanetti, Dr. Matthew Vriends, Heiko Blecher, Dr. Paul Loiselle, Aaron Norman and Dr. David Schleser. It's their research that concluded fluke immunity to Dylox and recommend Prazi. Yes that was in 1991 but do you think Dylox would work better now. I don't see you recommending these new drugs you suppose fish farmers are using. As for gill flukes being different in other countries is simply not true. Fish are being exported all over the world every day and bringing their flukes with them. If you think the Doctors above research is bollocks then challenge it with scientific fact not bollocks. Discredit their research and I'll eat humble pie and that's great I'll learn something new. You seem upset though lighten up this is a game to learn more not a battle. See Ya

[mistakes r crucial]

Fishead,

Firstly, I am not upset, I'm smiling, always do. Secondly, I have seen so much scientific research over the years, not only on discus but many subjects that is conflicting, it's not funny. What I am going on is experience, first hand experience with my fish and comments made by some of the top breeders in Australia that have been using these meds for years. You can quote any research you like but I will guarantee that someone, if not many people, will refute it. In many cases different researchers have different outcomes on the same subject, that outcome is quite common.

The fact of the matter is, regardless of your 16 year old research outcomes, is that right here and now Trichlorofon, although pretty nasty on your fish compared to Prazi, it works. Personally I no longer use Trichlorofon because the pure Prazi powder I buy works for me every time. I find that the commercial forms of Prazi from the LFS do not work for me and maybe this is what you mean by vet grade, if that is the case then I agree whole heartedly.

I offer opinion on this forum on a regular basis and when it comes to flukes it comes down to two products, try Prazi first but the pure stuff from Aristopet as it is far more gentle than Trichlorofon, if for whatever reason that doesn't cut it then use Trichlorofon. Again, IME, not scientific reseach, they both still work. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter a stuff what either of us think, people will continue to use what ever works for them, I know I certainly will.
MAC :lol:

[samir]

the pure stuff from Aristopet

How come I'm always the last to know ??? :shock:

Neither trichlorofon nor prazi worked with a very stubborn case of flukes I had. finally 3 X 24 hour baths of 2mg/l KMnO4 over 8 days did the trick.
I do not agree that flukes everywhere have the same resistance levels and I now believe that complete eradication is highly improbable . I still find a couple of flukes a slide no matter what.
Anyone heard of Supaverm ? mebendazole + closantel. Its supposed to be 100% effective against flukes in koi. I've read that its toxic to any other fish, however in one of the vet journals it said that those reports are "anecdotal"

[fishhead]

Actually,I agree with every thing you just said.

[fishhead]

I mean Mistakes r crucial sombody beat me to the post.

[DiscusWorld]

Just some use full information for all that wish to listen
trichlorofon can be brought in a more pure form than most fish shops as a powder called neguvon fro cattle (be very careful strong stuff), trichlorofon can cause constipation after treatment as it also kills tape worm and other resistant worms, the big problem is it also effects the nervous system in the fish for a short while and there stomach mussels don’t work., if this happen strong Epson salts will work. This is valid for all trichlorofon treatments.
Also a UV sterilizer will help control fluke in your systems

Ok now if you have a different opinion please just be constructive about you opinion.
We are all here for the expansion of knowledge.

[syxx]

It's great to see so many replies to this thread.

[mistakes r crucial]

LoL you mean the ones made 4 years ago.

[syxx]

Whoops, I don't often take note of when posts were made, but even so this posts holds quite a lot of good info.

[mistakes r crucial]

For some reason this place was far livelier back then but it's still full of very knowledgable people and what was said 4 years ago is, in the main, still relevant today.
cheers
MAC