my experiments with water, food,growth rates etc.

[phil56]

Hi everyone As requested this is the start of my experiences with Discus on water,foods and growth rate.Too much to write all the once so I'll keep adding as I get the time.I realize not everyone will agree with me and these are only my experiences nothing more, the golden rule of the more you know the more you realize you don't know is very apparent with Discus. I just don't want it to turn into a debate of right and wrong and lose sight of the meaning.
Growth rate,resistance to disease,breeding etc are all directly tied into water quality,They will breed in bad water,but maybe only a few will young survive.It doesn't matter how good our food is,if the water quality is bad its only a matter of time before our discus get sick.
I believe Discus are easy to keep its peoples failure to keep them in proper water that kills them.I always treat the water with Potassium permanganate to kill off bacteria.Then add hydrogen peroxide,this eliminates most disease problems after a water change.I know breeders that use dam water with great success.They have had no problems at all,(this always really annoyed me HaHa as I had to go to so much trouble).
P.H. Ideally should be 5.0,this helps stop bacterial infections,unfortunately not parasites.(I have taken the P.H to 3.0 with no effect on Ichthyobodo) I usually go for 5.5 with my breeders.One thing i noticed which surprised me was on a system of 12 pr,(usually the hormones from one breeding pr triggered the others to spawn)At 5.5,Nine out of the 12spawns had an excellent hatch rate the other 3 were completely infertile.To experiment later on I raised the P.H.to 6.8,the three I thought were infertile produced large batches of fry.Yet the other 9 spawns all failed.And for a month or so after I lowered the P.H back to 5.5. P.H is very much an individual thing for Discus,although my best results by % are at 5.5.Although for wild heckels 5.0 may be better.This may also be because most breeders around the world use a P.H. of 5.5.Jack wattley recommends large scale breeders should use a P.H of 5.0,And no doubt would have a good reason(maybe to prevent bacterial infections spreading around the world through the importation of discus?,or not,only he knows) I would follow his advice more so than mine. We once rang an exporter of Discus in the Amazon,He told us where he catches them in the wet season the P.H was 5.5 in the dry season 3.0. Food for thought.
I was going to go through my experiences on water parameters,than food,this may bore the more advanced Discus keepers out of there brains,so if I'm going down the wrong path please say.

[scoob]

Hi Phil,

Thank for the info, how much Potassium permanganate add hydrogen peroxide would you add to a 200L barrel.

Cheers
Mike

[Klawz]

Hey Phill,
I reckon you have made a great start and personally thank you for the time you have spent (and hopefully continue to do) sharing some of your experiences. Like you have said a couple times these are your experiences, opinions and ideas and im sure the people who are interested will read your thread and those who arent, disagree or otherwise wont. Keep it up!

A question straight up;
How do you get your water to 5.5ph, keep it that way and test it accurately?
I find with my ph test kits once the water is at low 6ph and with my tester it turns yellow the difference between the shades of yellow i get i cant accurately say if its 5.0ph 5.5ph or 6ph.
My tank stays at about 6.5ph as i use a kh stabiliser consistantly following instructions. Im happy with it so far as in the tank i use it in ive been lucky enough to have not as yet lose a Discus or have a disease outbreak.

[ILLUSN]

I think i can answer this one for Phil.

go buy a digital tester and CALIBRATE it.

i couldn't live without mine, much faster then liquid kits and reads down to 3 without problems.

[Discus Planetarium]

+1 ILLUSN but you get what you pay for spend the money and get a good one same as tds pens

[phil56]

Hi everyone,thanks for the support,Before using Hydrochloric acid I struggled with P.H.most P.H.down you buy from a retail shop only go about as far as 6.7 or so,and are a phosphate which you don't want in your water anyway,Don't put Hydrochloric acid In your tank only the water for water changes.I wrote an Article on Discus for Aquarium keeper Australia magazine,I gave the same advice and received a lot of phone calls from people all over Australia saying they had almost kill there Discus by pouring the acid straight into the tank.(even though I told them not to do that in the article)so please only water for the water for the change,than if you put too much in it is easily corrected.
For a 200L barrel,use one eight of a teaspoon of P.P.Leave 24hours than 8ml of H.P.3%,As for P.H.testing what Illusion and Discus planetarium said,the cheaper digital testers don't last long you need one of the more expensive ones to do a good job,you leave the probe in the tank so a constant reading is available.when the P.H. drops too low I placed a bag of coral rubble in the tank as a stabilizer.
TDS can be a problem in some areas,I've found anything below 150ppm is ok,but the lower the better,many people use Peat bombs to do that.My experiments with peat have not always been good,some Peat raises the P.H.and TDS,I have also noticed what would amount to the effects of chemical poisoning.After I removed the Peat and did a large water change the fish returned to normal.so be very careful what type of peat you use and monitor the results before using the water.Most people recommend Canadian Peat which I have used and noticed no real benefit at all maybe perhaps people think the tannin released in the water is going to do something,I know I did, unfortunately I have noticed it has changed nothing,no response to behavior,breeding,young etc,This may also be the peat I tried could have been contaminated,tetra sold peat some time ago,perhaps if you wanted to try peat I imagine theirs would be alright. Unless you have really hard water I don't think you have to worry about trying to correct it.wild Discus may be different.I do believe though some parts of Australia it could be a problem,than perhaps water softening resins may be useful or RO.
Many people are using almond leaf, as yet I have only used it once and not tested the results,If anyone has had clear results and can give us the before and after water changes please let us know.

[scoob]

Thanks for that Phil, got a question how would you saftely reduce the ph of rainwater to ph 5.5 since there is hardly any hardness in it.
My rainwater is normally ph 7.0
cheers
Mike

[Nev]

Thanks for that Phil, got a question how would you saftely reduce the ph of rainwater to ph 5.5 since there is hardly any hardness in it.
My rainwater is normally ph 7.0
cheers
Mike

Add some tap water to raise the tds or half a cup of Perth bore water to 500 lt rain water. lol
Only guessing on amounts
Or as stated earlier use crushed coral to stabilize it.

[scoob]

Thanks Nev I will try that.

[Merrilyn]

Phil, I'm making this post a sticky as I believe it holds a lot of valuable information. That way it will stay at the top of the forum and you can add to it whenever you have the time.

[Hooked]

Hi Phil,
Im starting the treatment of my change water tonight as you have recommended. I have had trouble with bacterial infection in my fry grow out tank. I have been using Hcl for a good while now to adjust my ph after getting the tip from Illusn. It is definitely cost effective compared to some of the other methods.
I've just filled my barrel from the tap and have added the half of a 1/4 teaspoon of PP. Am I right in saying that I should leave it for 24hours with the air stone to move it around, then add my preferred chlorine/chloramine/metals etc remover (Supachlor) after that 24hr period so as not to interfere with the PP? Then also add the usual amount of Hcl to adjust my ph? Probably leave another day with the heater in it to bring it up to temp and then add the hydrogen peroxide to the barrel shortly before doing the water change? Is that right with the hydrogen peroxide, I add to the barrel just before the water change?
What I had been doing is fill my barrel and add the Supachlor and Hcl at the start, aerate, leave for 24hrs and then use after coming up to temp. My breeders are back in the display tank now and generally still lay weekly so seem fairly happy (except for being put back in the display). Its just my fry seem so susceptible to bacteria despite 50% daily changes and a good cleaning regime. The addition of a simple bacterial treatment to the water at the start seems a great idea.
Thanks for your time Phil, very much appreciated,

Cheers

[phil56]

Hi guys,Look I'm very sorry but I can't continue with this thread unfortunately I have a bad habit of telling the truth,unfortunately in the real world that always seems to lead to legal prosecution which I have been threatened with.
I'm just not very good at negotiating this legal minefield.
I have 44years experience and mountains of data I wanted to share as done right Discus are very very easy to keep.Again I'm very sorry I wanted to do this too,but if I continue I know where it will end up.
so again sorry,but its out of my control.