5 week old fry dying?

[Hooked]

Hi Gang,

I have some five week old fry and over the last week I've lost about ten. I just found another on its way out with two bulging eyes.
The ph is 6.5 and I'm doing 50% water changes per day. Its actually 25% in the morning and 25% in the evening. Its a 400lt tank with two mature Eheim 2217's. The pick ups have two large cube sponges wrapped in white filter cloth. The spray bars are drilled out and wrapped with heavy duty filter material so there is very little current.
I started with live brine shrimp for about two weeks (weeks 2 and 3 of their lives) then frozen brine shrimp ( from weeks 3 up to now) with the odd feed of beef heart mix (started about week 4 for a week, just occasionally) similar to Merrylins recipe, with vegies, garlic etc. When I started getting a death or two over the last week I stopped the beef heart as I thought it may have been to much for their small stomachs, causing blockages. Out of the roughly 8-10 that have died about 2 had ruptures in their sides, one with what looked like an intestine hanging out of the rupture with food in the tract. I now just feed with frozen Brine shrimp and I'm adding some squashed thawed peas to help with some possibly roughage. They eat them.
The other tell tale sign is that they have popped out or bulging eye sockets. It doesn't look like "pop eye" the bacterial illness that I've seen pics of. Just the eyes are bulging out severely and a couple of dead had an eye actually hanging loose.
I have been adding aquarium salt at the rate of two teaspoons per 20lts as recommended by a friend that's a breeder for the last couple of weeks. I have now started to use epsom salts (as of today) instead of Aquarium salt to possibly help with the what seemed intestinal blockages.
After research I think possibly part of my problem is that I'm pouring the change water in to fast and causing the gas build up problem (forgot what its called) due to to much aeration? I have been tipping the water over my free hand to break it up and there are a lot of bubbles.
I should have said my water is aged for about 48hrs, treated with supa chlor (like prime) and three teaspoons of seachem acid buffer to get ph 6.5. I'm going to carefully syphon the water in as from tonight and hopefully that helps.
I've only seen a couple of young "flashing" from time to time, so hopefully not related in any way to flukes.
I appreciate any advice, as I'm obviously doing something wrong.

Cheers

[giorid]

Sorry for your loss, I know how it feels, the only thing I can suggest is that you check your filters and see that you keep them very clean, eg, change the filter wool or wash the pads, contamination from the filter can be a real headache, disconnect and wash the cannister and hoses if necessary, check that your food isn't off or contaminated by bacteria, keep in fridge, someone else might have more ideas, good luck.

[Hooked]

Thanks giorod,

The filters are really quite clean (I hope!) One was cleaned at day one, hoses etc too. The other was added about two weeks ago, very clean at start. I checked one the other day and it seems the pre filter cube sponges over the intakes are stopping a lot of the food/waste from getting in. I clean the cube sponges about every four days, vigorously in a bucket. I vacuum out the water morning and night and go over the sponges with it also. There never appears to be much of anything on the sponges. I try to clean/wipe the glass daily, sides and base. I do get a brown thin algae build up on the base glass in patches that also gets an extra clean off about the same time as I do the pre filter sponges (4 days) when/if noticeable.
I go through the food fairly quick. I have a bout 25 Discus in a display and they are real pigs! : )

I just realised also that I have been feeding some live black worm, mainly for the parents but the fry do eat it also?

Thanks giorid, have a good night

[swifto]

Hi Hooked,may b u should try syphoning the changed water in from a bucket i know its longer process but worth a go.Sorry the c u have lost some u were going gr8 at raising them.By the way Marlon got me a gr8 deal on my new 4x2.5x2 set up,order a Dal-barb through his company and saved hundreds,the mans a legend.Cheers Rob.

[Hooked]

Hey Swifto,

Yes mate, it was almost going to well! Almost forgot I was rearing Discus : )

I did exactly that mate as of last night, syphoned from a bucket slowly. Yep took a while but managed to create way less, if any aeration. I had put an air stone in the tank a couple of weeks back and I removed that also just in case. I've gone back to just having my return/spray bar wrapped in filter cloth about 10mm above the water. It creates a gentle curtain of water along its entire length that should be oxygenating the tank enough.
There's been no deaths today to wake up to today. Fingers crossed!
I managed to count them late one night when they were settled and counted 93, give or take. I've had about 10 die over the last week.

Good to hear about the new tank. Marlons a good man!

[swifto]

93 fry that means Dinning the Misses,a big bunch of rose so u can get more tanks :lol:

[Hooked]

Ha ha!

The amount of time that goes into the cleaning and water changes, morning and night, probably means I'll be lucky to still have the Mrs when they are finally grown! : )

[swifto]

Mine wishes she add gills :lol:

[iro11a]

Ha ha!

The amount of time that goes into the cleaning and water changes, morning and night, probably means I'll be lucky to still have the Mrs when they are finally grown! : )

I hearing you there mate. with a full time job running my own business plus raising discus fry not much free time.

[Hooked]

Hi iro11a,

It's amazing how much time it sucks out of your day! Maybe its best suited to a retirement pastime. : ) I think anyone that's wanting to make money out of selling Discus would be much better off buying them in and on selling them. I'm doing this for the satisfaction of hopefully raising a good batch. I just hope the deaths stop and they grow up free of peppering and I'll be stoked! The parents arrived here free of any peppering but now have a bit. I hope its just the darkening that goes with raising the fry? We'll see.
I'm lucky my wife is understanding.... to a degree : )
I remember what free time use to be like : )

Cheers

[phil56]

Hi Hooked,raising Discus is time consuming only if you make it that way or so i keep telling myself.Baby discus often have bad reaction to water changes even if the water going in is only slightly different.If you can't overcome problems(discus getting sick after water changes)Treat the water used for the change with Potassium permanganate for 24hours than neutralize with Hydrogen peroxide,adjust P.H and temperature.Baby discus actually all Discus thrive in this treated water.
Dropping the P.H to 5.5 will help with bacterial infections,use a U.V and if you don't overfeed you don't need to do a water change for 2weeks.
watch the P.H and adjust with Bi-carb.Feed live brine shrimp then discus flakes and pellets ground to powder,grab a pinch hold under the water and sprinkle over baby discus,remove uneaten food later.Some baby discus will eat themselves to death so limit the amount of food.
Food mixes pollute the water faster than anything else creating bacterial booms that nail your discus.Mixes come later.warning I am a great believer in garlic but too much in a food mix for baby discus blows up their stomachs like a balloon.
Jack wattley use to throw copper sponges into his tanks to control most problems,works very well,but in acid water you have to be careful or too much copper leaches out and can kill all the fish.I use U.V probably because im too lazy to do copper test all the time,although their may be times when copper is necessary as many diseases can be transmitted from the baby brine shrimp.Some people soak Problem( some brands are noted for carriers of velvet disease) B.B in medication before use.
Hope this helps good luck.

[ILLUSN]

I remember reading the PP treatment of water in a an aging drum back in the days of discusworld in queensland, anychance you could give a step by step Phil, might just be what i need to get my altums to go.

[Hooked]

Hi Phil56,

Very interesting. A step by step would be great. Yep, I need to get a UV and perhaps not change the water so much and often. Give it time to settle down a bit.
Things were going ok the last couple of weeks until I spent the last week shifting my home and business. All my fish are now stressed due to the relocation.
Yeah, I hear you when you say "only if you make it that way". In all honesty I know I have tended to over feed. Also its usually late by the time I'm free of the work day and have been syphoning buckets in and out instead of running transfer pumps etc to keep the noise down which takes forever.
I appreciate the info, thanks mate,

Cheers

[phil56]

Hi guys
Here in Hervey Bay you can be sure your Discus will get sick after a water change,never see so many bacterial infections pop up from nowhere,At first I tried R.O water which involved a lot of waste and took to long for the amount of water I needed.Another Discus breeder 18years ago who was a retired chemical engineer(this guy came in handy)advised of this method of De bugging the water,which solved most of my problems with water.All you have to do is fill a tub with tap water which will supply your needs.I used 500 to 1000lt tubs,don't declorinate,as this will also neutralize the potassium permanganate,add about one sixth of a teaspoon,so the water is a medium purple than leave for a minimum of 24hours,once i tried it in 12hours and the results were catastrophic,sick fish everywhere,no shortcuts.If the water turns brown within the 24hours the P.P.is spent and not working,this means there is too much organic waste in the water,and a solution needed(may be filtering through carbon etc)although most tap water is satisfactory.After 24hours add about 30mils of Hydrogen peroxide(3or6%)sold in coles,chemist etc.) like magic the water will turn crystal clear.At the start Use a airstone or power head to circulate the water.
Than adjust the P.H. using hydrochloric acid.(concrete cleaner,you can buy from bunnings)Add about 40mils,this may drop your P.H. to say 4,the next day it may be back up to 7,add more until it stays at about 2,than using Bi-carb raise it to 7,do this procedure a few times up and down stopping at 5.5,this will help stabilize the P.H.otherwise once in the tank a P.H. of 5.5 could drop to 2 overnight in crowed conditions.The more you play with it the longer it seems to hold at 5.5in the tank.so don't worry if you cant get the exact measurements right for a while.
Add a heater,when right pump to tank.
This may sound like it takes a lot of time,but it doesn't each procedure takes no more than a few second once your organized.
I hope I explained it well enough,I'm terrible at trying to get the message across typing.It never sounds like what i mean.
good luck.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks phil56 for posting the procedure, did you find any ill effects from the increased TDS from the acidification / neutrilisation cycle or did the extra TDS give the water the needed buffering capacity?

NaHCO3 + HCl = Na+, Cl- = salt correct (simplified version)?
as the H2O just forms more water and the CO2 is released in as gas?

or is the equilibrim more slanted towards the formation of CO3 2- (kH)? or H2CO3 (carbonic acid) in the presence of excess hydronium ions? either of these senarios will give the water some buffering capacity

sorry for the chemistry talk just trying to picture in my head how the water is changing chemicly as this something I want to try to do to get my Altums to spawn.

[Hooked]

Hi Phil,
Thanks mate for taking the time. I'm sure there's a lot of crew here getting a lot out of your recent posts. Especially newbies such as myself,

Cheers, mate

[phil56]

Hi Illusn,I've always assumed it was the TDS,although the other reactions could play a part,no real tests were made to check each chemical reaction as this method hes been so widely used for so long with out any problems.All were considered to miner to worry about,as is the buffing action,I found raising and lowering there was a longer period the P.H. held,but I'm talking only a few days instead of hours.This also may have also been because my tanks were so crowed.
The TDS though never rose above 150ppm. I think its a good idea to circulate the water a few days or so to let things settle chemically before use.
One thing to watch.To save on costs we bought hydrogen peroxide in a large drum at 50%,(what you buy at is woolworths 3%)One of the employes added the same amount of H.P.as usual but it was now 50% not 3% about 2000 Discus stomachs blew up like balloons and died.I tell the story so you will think before you add some extra H.P.
If your using the water for altums,which i'm very interested in,you may like to use a peat bomb to further lower the TDS.
A friend of mine use to breed them.He was very clear that the P.H never went above 5.
I hope I answered your Question at least to some extent.
Thanks Hooked,Glad I can help,I'm hoping if more people spread the right info the more people will keep them.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks Phil, I'll try and squeeze in another 500l drum and give it a go I have PP h202 HCl and peat on hand.

[Hooked]

Hi all!
Thanks to Phil56's recent posts my young discus are looking great and well on the road to recovery. I had a good look at what I was doing recently and I realised I had been overfeeding a little and this was feeding a bacterial problem which young Discus are very susceptible too.
I've done a few Potasium Permangenate baths so far over the last 12 days and as of tomorrow I will also be using the treated water that has been suggested by Phil in this and his other posts on the site.
I'm sure the young ones will further benefit from the treated change water and I'm hoping it may also do good things for the adults in my display tank. My Brown Spotted Butterfly parents have been peppering up over time in the display tank and I'm keen to see if they benefit from the treated water also. I'll let you know how I go.

Cheers