First discus setup

[mdj131]

I just got a decent sized aquarium for a song and I figured I would post my plans here and hopefully learn something in the feedback!

I am no expert, no way no how, but I have been running aquariums from 5 gallons to 55 gallons for about 25 years now, for the last 10 or so focusing on planted tanks except for a brief stint breeding guppies. I figured this would be a great place to air out my ideas for the new tank before they are set in stone so to speak, let some real pro's who know more than I do share their wisdom so the fish I end up getting will be healthier and happier.


The glass is 4'L x 21"T x 18"W, I expect the water column to be about 18-19 inches after soil is in. I was told it is a 100 gallon tank, I am too lazy to do the math.

Substrate: First time using vermiculite soaked in Blood Meal, a high nitrogen, zero ammonia zero phosphate fertilizer. I am hoping the Blood meal wont discolor the water. It will be under sand, about 50% of which I will be removing from the eco-complete in a seasoned 55 this tank will replace. The sand only, no gravel, will be 2-3 inches deep, the vermiculite mixture under it less than 1 inch. Almost forgot, I added about 4 handfuls of Canadian sphagnum peat moss (couldn't find bog peat around here) to the vermiculite. I doubt I will ever have to add black-water extract because this has worked well for me in other aquariums keeping the tannins a nice natural black-water color all the time, for years at a time. My 55 gallon has a vermiculite /peat/sand mixture and the plants have done well for years, so I am hoping the addition of Blood meal will improve on whats been working for me. Seems like Blood Meal would be high in iron, right? It is very high in organic nitrogen. Is it possible too much iron/nitrogen could leech from under the sand and hurt the fish?

There will be a medium amount of driftwood arranged as a center-piece, also seasoned for years. Due to the sinfully soft water here I add natural mussel shells here and there, doubt it helps much but every little bit counts. I know discus like soft water but ours is extreme.

Chemistry... as noted the water here is super soft. I also will have to deal with the insanely high ph. After 3 days in a plastic tub, water here measures 8.0. I intend to let the discus adjust to the water rather than trying to "fix" this issue. Water changes are done with water that has has 3 days of airing out.
Ammonia will be at zero, nitrites and nitrates well under control. I will be using canister filters, 1 of which is fully seasoned and I will be using 50 gallons of seasoned water from the old tank as well.
I expect the new tank to have a very short, if any, breaking in period, since all but 50% of the water and sand will be from an established 10 year old tank. Due to the high ph here, I intend to buy young discus and let them adapt, will this be helpful?

Plants: Medium to almost Heavy density. I have an assortment of plants doing well now in the old tank and more on the way... I hope the old plants do well when I move them, they should as they have been moved before and survived, even thrived. I use a store bought DIY type co2 system where the yeast sends bubbles up a cool ladder.... not exact but it gets the job done. I have 5 x 4' long fluorescent tubes @ 40 watts each, in a spectrum my plants are loving. Every 6-9 months I give away a 5 gallon bucket of trimmings to a friend with turtles in a pond.

Fish:
I recently decided NOT to put my dwarf Pleco's in due to concerns they might attack the discus. I have 2 Siamese Algae eaters who do a wonderful job with any hair algae that pops up, a large colony of Malaysian Trumpet Snails to do cleanup and aerate the sand, and I have about 30 Neons. I would prefer Cardinal Tetras but I find them too expensive/hard to find, plus they are are slightly bigger bio-load.
I intend to buy 2 pair of German Blue Rams, (right amount for tank? )and an undetermined number of Discus, strain undecided as of yet. Help me decide how many to get :) I want them happy and full grown, even if it means I can only get one.

I don't buy into the 10% water change every week theory. I change 90% every 2 months and my fish haven't been diseased in years. (darned guppies lol) I guess the plants growing so fast helps. One of them is a fast growing floating moss that I have to scoop out 20% of weekly to keep it small. Nitrates don't get bad enough to have any noticeable effect... right before a water change it measures around 20 ppm Is this too high for Discus? I am guessing my water change habits will have to change with the larger tank and more sensitive fish so your thoughts are welcome.


So, now you know most of what I am planning to do and with what equipment. Any suggestions or ideas?
I have some questions too... will 2 pair of Rams co-exist in this tank? I'm thinking yes but not sure.
How many Discus will grow to full size in this system, considering the water column, other fish, and plants?
Where is a good place to buy Rams & Discus online?

Thanks in advance for your time and advice :)

[BigDaddyAdo]

Too lazy to do the math? How long does it take? You need to know what volume of water you are dealing with.

You havent bought into the 10% weekly water change theory? More like 50% per week. More if you are growing the fish to adults yourself.

Going by your initial post I would suggest sticking with the guppies. ;)

[swifto]

I have to agree with BigDaddyAdo discus are like a Beautiiful woman if u don't take care of them u run into problems

[Merrilyn]

Welcome to the forum mdj131. It's good to ask questions before starting with discus. Saves so many problems down the track.

Okay, let's start with the substrate. Your Malaysian Trumpet snails are going to have that mixture messed up pretty quickly, so you may have problems keeping it looking clean and neat. Discus love a sand substrate. They like to 'blow' into it to stir up food. Not sure about the blood meal. I've never used it. I'd be worried about it polluting the water.

Trying to maintain a heavily planted tank with discus is a bit of a trade off. You either have a gorgeous tank with full C02 system, and very few discus, or you go for a sparse tank and healthy, well grown discus. Juvenile discus do not grow well in a planted tank. They need heavy feeding of high protein foods and this of course necessitates frequent, large water changes. And by frequent, I mean twice a week, at least 30%. You can't compromise on this. They simply won't thrive on anything less. Nitrates of anything over 10 before a waterchange are way too high. We try to keep our nitrates between 5 and 10 and waterchanges are the only way to ensure this.

The reason we're so adamant about clean water is because it works. Time after time discus keepers try to buck the trend, and reduce their water changes, but it always ends in tears. These fish come from some of the cleanest waters in the world. The bacteria count is almost zero. Obviously we can't replicate that in a captive body of water like a tank, but we need to try if we are to have our fish grow well and remain healthy.

I'd like to suggest that you select larger discus, rather than juveniles, and only have say, 4 or 6 of them in your planted tank. They will still look gorgeous, and be much easier to maintain than youngsters. Adult discus require a minimum of 10 gallons per fish, but in a heavily planted tank, I'd probably keep it at 20 gallons per fish.

Your pH of 8 is not ideal, as you probably already know. I'd prefer to see it at 7, but as you're not trying to breed, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Better to have stable water rather than 'perfect' water.

I'm sure others will drop in with more suggestions.

[mdj131]

Thanks for reading my post Merrylin :)

I knew going into this I would have to increase the water changes, the info you gave me on just how much nitrate I will be able to live with is priceless, thank you. I will do a 50% change whenever it hits 10 ppm... let me know if you think that is not enough.

I hate the ph here, but as you said, keeping it stable where it is is likely to benefit the fish more than constantly adding chemicals to adjust the ph.

I was very surprised to see the number of Discus recommended so high... I was hoping for 3, maybe 4.

4 Rams, a MTS colony, 2 Siamese algae eaters, and the Discus. I won't be placing 8 discus in there with them, so I guess I need to know about how small groups of Discus will be ok... say 3 of them? Any behavior problems with 3 or should I go with 2 pair?

[BigDaddyAdo]

Either a single pair or 5+.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Do you have access to rainwater?

[mdj131]

Interesting ... I guess I will go with a single pair if 3 is a no-no and 4 is a no-no.

We are in a drought here so I can't rely on what I would be able to collect on my property... Thanks for the idea though I may supplement the water when I can with rainwater... my baked enamel on tin roof gathers quite a bit of clean water when it rains.




I dumped the entire bag of blood meal in a bucket of water and stirred it up well... only stained the water just a bit... it settled fairly quickly leaving a light brown stain. I think I can use it.
Time will tell :)

[Merrilyn]

Discus are very difficult to sex even when adults, and juveniles are almost impossible. Anyone who tells you they can sell you juvenile "pairs" is not quite telling the truth.

These guys are cichlids, despite their exotic shape, they still have all the aggressive traits of cichlids and will set up a pecking order. If you only have two fish, unless they are actually a mated pair, one of them is going to be the underdog and constantly picked on by the stronger fish. With three fish, you spread the aggression a bit more, and with 4, even further. Based on those numbers, I'd suggest you keep a minimum of 4 fish in your tank, either juvenile or semi-adult.

As you know, my recommendation is adult or semi-adult fish. These will cost you more in the initial purchase, but I'm sure you will be happier in the long run.

Good luck. It's all sounding good.

[mdj131]

Ahh ok, I figured they would behave somewhat like Rams do, both being S.A. Cichlids.

Based on your explanation I think I might go with 4. I will get the largest ones I can afford. If I can afford it I will buy a mated pair instead of 4.

I haven't touched on food yet... During all but 4 months of the year I can easily catch grasshoppers, crickets, and creepy crawlies under logs here on my property. I am making the assumption they will enjoy the live food and benefit from it. I can produce brine shrimp, I have a lifetime supply of what I need for that from the guppy breeding a few years back. I figure this will make a nice snack for them but don't plan on giving it often, I think the nutritional value is more for fry than adults.
What would you say I should use as the main diet, live snacks aside?

[Nkemjika]

I agree with going by your initial post I would suggest sticking with the guppies all the way.

[mdj131]

Thanks for the encouragement... I feel so warm and fuzzy.

I was wrong about the blood meal, no big deal just removed the nasty substrate and went with what has been working for me so long I cant remember... clean sand over vermiculite. If anyone was curious, blood meal experiment = fail.

The "grow up" tank is a 46 gallon is set up with only about a half inch sand. I decided to use a grow up tank after reading up more on planted Discus tanks and the "hard work" involved in keeping it clean. I don't see the big deal if your doing the water changes, but so many agree on this that I will not try to make a path where there is none.
This aquarium is cycled and I have kept the nitrates under 7 in spite of feeding the 44 Neon's quite well. There are no live plants, just a few plastic ones and a sponge filled hang over the back type filter. Temp is 82f atm, still working my way up to about 86f. The water changes are every 2 days at 50% w/ aged water. If / when the nitrates creep up I will increase that to every day.

I feel this tank is ready to grow some Discus up... It's clean and easy TO clean. I went and bought frozen blood worms, I can raise my own brine shrimp, and I have been looking at various beef heart recipes... not sure how I want to go with that just yet.

The 100 gallon, it is still cycling after my experiment that proved too much nitrogen in the sand is a bad thing torched both filter cultures with sulfur from the sand. Hey sue me, I had to try... :) No fish were harmed because I was watching and waiting for problems. The Valisnera is taking off like the weed it is, the Amazon Swords took some minor damage, my other plants are all doing well after their short stay in the 46 bow-front.

When it is done cycling I might go ahead and buy the Rams.. see how they do, then go for the Discus and start the raising fun in the 46... How big should I let them get before I go ahead and put them in the 100?


A little dig at the folks who think raising guppies makes me unqualified for much else... First, I have kept MANY species over the last 25 years. I figured since my Rams in my other 55 can't seem to stop spawning maybe I was ready to graduate to a larger S.A. Cichlid... The Kribensis I had spawning about 15 years ago seemed to agree with the Rams on this one.
Second, if you think a grow operation for guppies is simple, or less work than a Discus tank, you might want to rethink that. When you have 30 fairly pure strain pairs you end up with about a litter every day or two. Soooo... when you have 40-60 or more new guppies every day for a few months, come tell me why I should avoid something "hard" lol.

I guess if the first discus keeper had said, no I've only been keeping fish of various types for 25 years, I better not try this awesome new species we found... well then we wouldn't have this forum eh?

So anyways, still open to advice and suggestions, links to good articles, anything else in the helpful category.
I will be back when there is more to tell, assuming I am still welcome here after having been associated previously with the evil Guppy League of Discus Killers 8^)~

[rburrowes]

Hey Mate,

Welcome to the forum, completely agree with swifto, "discus are like a Beautiful woman if u don't take care of them u run into problems". I actually think that applies to all women. Once the discus bug sets in, time to start spoiling the wife a little bit extra now and then.

Like its been said before Adult discus are ALOT easier to look after than Juvi's, and if you do get Juvi's, lots and lots of clean water, with my Juvi's I was cleaning my tanks every second day, with about 35% changes every time and they looked aresome. That applies to adults as well, but i do 35% every third day. The day you decide, the water looks fine it can miss a day, you might get away with that once or twice, but the third time shit hits the fan, they stop eating, go dark, become malformed and then you spend the next week pulling your hair out. So the answer is look after tank, lots of water changes, and if you can find the cash buy a nice pair. (Have a look around the forum on how to distinguish a nice pair from a crap pair).

Stay wide away from frozen Blood worms, easiest way to introduce nasties into your tank, yes discus appear to love them, but I love KFC to, but thats not good for me either. I feed mine a few different types of food, Sera Discus Granuals, Sera Vipan Flakes and when I feel like feeding them something special I go for Brine Shrimp. Looing into beef heart at the moment, but i'm a bit reluctant to move away from a working system.

Anyway thats my thoughts, go forth and concur.

Rob

[Hooked]

Gday mate,

Welcome to the forum, you are in the right place for good Discus info. Clean water and good balanced diet and you will give them a great start. Get use to how to tell a quality Discus from a poor specimen before buying and you will save yourself a LOT of grief. Oh, and develop good quarantine habits. Hope it helps,

Cheers

[Merrilyn]

If you're raising the fancy guppies with success, then I take my hat off to you.

Years ago, I grew up raising guppies. They were tough little critters back then. Today, I can't raise them past two generations. These new strains are really, really difficult to raise, so anyone who thinks raising guppies is the easy way out, doesn't know what they're talking about.

With your experience, you'll have no trouble growing juvenile discus into magnificent adults :P

Keep us posted.

[mdj131]

Sorry so long since I could get back online.

I went BB on the 46 after doing some more reading and remembering the old guppy tanks...

I will go without the bloodworms, no need for nasties no matter how much they like them. They do love em tho!

I bought the Discus about 6 days ago, all are gorgeous except one who refuses to turn from black to the color he should have. He is acting normal in all other ways. Actually he is pretty high on the pecking order, but black as night.




I went ahead and populated the larger tank, I forgot how much I love Rams. :)

The increase in heat is taking a toll on the Val's, but all the other plants are pearling more if anything...


Will try to remember to update now and then.

Peace

[mdj131]

The last of them has his colors and is eating now. Everyone seems fine.
They grow so fast!

[rburrowes]

Lots of Good Food + Clean Water = Happy Discus, growth and colour

[Merrilyn]

Sounds like it's time for some photos :P