What is ideal body shape and size as discus grow out?

[Xerxes]

I read in the "Discus Critique" forum about
1) football shaped body being underfed,
2) "pinched" head being underfed (I have no idea what pinched is),
3) eyes too big for body (understand this one easily enough) as underfed,

i) Does anyone have a link to a photo for "pinched" head for an example?

ii) Is there also a growth chart for knowing how many months at what body length, just to know if my fish are under the curve?

iii) I suppose also that at some point in a discus growth, the body is more football shaped than at other times: can someone tell me when this football shape is ok? And what other tell-tale signs are of discus being underfed or slow in grow out?

iv) I would think some bloke has a series of photos online that does all this. Any one know of a link?

v) lastly, I have two runts in my school and an empty breeder tank continuing to cycle with some cardinal tetras and rumy nose for when I do get a breeding pair. Would separating the runts and feeding them separately in my free tank, for example, help their growth? I read a lot here about hobbyist members rescuing badly cared for or abused discus to good states. Is this a possibility with the runts? My runts really are active and eat well, but just don't have the growth of their much bigger siblings.

I would separate them if I thought it would help the runts, even though the whole school I got now are really sweet together: they greet me when I come in from a long day and practically side up to the the glass as if asking for a rub through the glass and they're all practically touching each other when the lights go out and they "sleep" for the night. This batch of my kids are friendlier than some dogs I know. I swear they'd roll over and do tricks if I asked them to. And, they always stare at me with those big eyes, as if begging for some food or company.

I think if one of em dies, I'll be in deep depression for weeks. *sniff* I just feel this huge responsibility as if I should provide for them like I do my human daughter and wife. Know what I mean?

[giorid]

Hi xeres,
I really admire your concern for the runts, unfortunately discus whether captive or wild are part of the cycle of nature, that is, survival of the fittest, in the wild the runts would probably get chased away by the more dominant and bigger and stronger discus, being on their own and away from the protection of the school, they would endup as a meal for a predator. In an aquarium we take the role of nature in a small way, as your discus grow they will decide who's top dog, but we can save the runts if we want. A runt we always remain a runt. Out of millions of fry some are bound to grow into normal healthy discus while some won't. Btw, a pinched head on a discus means that the fish is very skinny behind the eyes, making the eyes appear abnormally large, if it shows these signs, it's not eating, and therefore it's either very sick or it's starving and needs to eat something desparately, if it, still has the energy to eat it might grow into a healthy fish if not it will probably die because it is too sick to recover.

[Xerxes]

Hi xeres,
I really admire your concern for the runts, unfortunately discus whether captive or wild are part of the cycle of nature, that is, survival of the fittest, in the wild the runts would probably get chased away by the more dominant and bigger and stronger discus, being on their own and away from the protection of the school, they would endup as a meal for a predator. In an aquarium we take the role of nature in a small way, as your discus grow they will decide who's top dog, but we can save the runts if we want. A runt we always remain a runt. Out of millions of fry some are bound to grow into normal healthy discus while some won't. Btw, a pinched head on a discus means that the fish is very skinny behind the eyes, making the eyes appear abnormally large, if it shows these signs, it's not eating, and therefore it's either very sick or it's starving and needs to eat something desparately, if it, still has the energy to eat it might grow into a healthy fish if not it will probably die because it is too sick to recover.

I figured as much for the runts, but they're just so good natured and friendly: he'll just stand there talking to me while his sibs are pigging out right next to him. He'll swim around and poke at stuff thinking about the weather and such, but not minding the feeding frenzy going on everywhere around him.

Thanks for the info on pinched head. I wouldda never guessed. I have googled info about this sort of ideal configuration for discus with no real luck, nothing quantitative anyway. If you have a link?

[Merrilyn]

It's a long believed theory that dominant discus in the tank produce pheremones in the water which retard the other fish from growing. This is why the asian breeders will weekly remove any fish from a tank that is not growing well, and put them in with smaller fish, where their growth rate will match the others in the group.

If you want to do the best by your 'runts', then by all means remove them to the spare tank and feed them well. Their growth rate will improve without the competition from other fish.

Only problem being, once the time comes to return them to the main group, they may or may not fit in quite as easily.

[Nev]

Good info merrilyn never knew that.
So at the moment l have a batch of juveniles, definitely growing at two speeds. If l separate them the others will catch up or at least improve?

[Xerxes]

Maybe the remaining group will grow at two speeds? I have two browns I'm willing to let at bottom of both rungs, but just curious if the remaining will split into two growth groups too, making bottom rung holders a good idea to have around. Lets me maximize growth for the lot. Thanks in advance and sorry for asking so many questions, Merrilyn.

I've googled and searched but no growth chart versus months aged yet either.

[Xerxes]

I've googled and searched but no growth chart versus months aged yet either.

Ahem, I'm not joking, I've googled and searched in many different search query words but no quantitative growth chart versus age (in months). :(

Not even just a quantitative anecdotal account: at three months, this length, and six months, this length. I think something across the board is best but I'll take someone's anecdotal estimates too, I guess.

Christmas must be gone and past since it don't seem like I'll this last question answered. :roll: Something about what the ideal body shape is would be cool too. (I can't believe some competition criterion for discus fish body shape isn't available somewhere; that would be great too).

[swampy1972]

I think you'll find that an "ideal growth rate" chart doesn't exist due to the number of variables that effect the fish's development..

Temp, water quality, diet, tank mates, tank size, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc = the list is almost endless.

As for "ideal shape", I'd suggest trying to get in touch with a Discus Society (possibly O'seas) and see if any of them has a judging guide for competition. Personally I'd be looking in countries like Germany that have a strong reputation in Discus breeding.

[Xerxes]

I found one judging guide for ideal shape here (http://aquarama.com.sg/pdf/ifc-form.pdf), but it gives the criteria categories but not a description of ideals in each category. I really tried the search (and I couldn't find the Discus Society O'Seas even of various different spellings I could guess at).

About the discus sizes, I know there are a lot of variables but the judges in these competition have to have some guide for judging fish size, I would think.