Hole in the head, Hexamita and L.L.E. Updated 10.2.2007

[luisprado]

I have a blue diamond with hole in the head and I have a few questions.

1. Is it contagious to my other discus?

2. If I do not have a quarantine tank is there a way to treat it without harming my other fish?

3. How bad is Hole in the head? Will it eventually kill her? What does this disease do, besides the holes in the head?



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[Merrilyn]

Hi Luis, Your fish is showing early stages of the disease. Treatment is quite effective at this stage.

It can be transmitted to your other fish, possibly thru contaminated droppings, although little scientific work has been done in this area. It is believed that the pathogen responsible for Hole in the Head (also known by a variety of other names such as Hex, head and lateral line erosion and wasting disease) is Spironucleus Vortens.

An infected fish may show one or several of the following symptoms:-

Skin lesions around the head area.
Turning dark.
Refusing to eat.
White jelly like droppings.
Muscle wasting and pinched appearance above the eyes.

The best drug to use is Metronidazole (Flagyl) which you will need to get from your local vet. Ring first to see if he will prescribe it after seeing a photo of the fish, or if he insists on seeing the fish himself.

1. Do a 30% water change.
2. Set the temperature to 30 degrees, no higher.
3. Add 250 mg Metro per 10 Litres of water. Crush tablets to fine powder and mix with water to form a paste before adding to the tank.
4. After 48 hours, do another 30% water change and repeat the dose. This should be done for a total of 3 treatments.
5. During treatment the tank lights should be left off. Metro is affected by light. And turn off your UV unit.
6. A variety of good quality, high protein food with added vitamins and minerals should be fed several times daily. Include prepared dry food, beef heart, brine shrimp, green vegetable matter and blood worms in the diet. Remove any uneaten food and keep the water very clean.

Further reading can be found in the excellent article from Discus Page Holland

http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml#1.%20%20Introduction%20–%20Comm on%20Symptoms

Hope that helps. Keep us posted on your progress.

*Admin Edit* Post edited to reflect the latest findings on dosage rates for Metro.

[Officerlungy]

The best drug to use is Metronidazole (Flagyl) which you will need to get from your local vet.

This is an effective an inexpensive drug for this type of problem
But get onto it , dont leave it till next week ... :shock:

Generally comes in tablet form , to which is best crushed into a powder
and diluted with tank water ... :wink:

Don't do what i did and try to hurry the process by putting the powder
directly into the wound :oops: .... I killed a nice Uaru with my ignorance
:( It wont happen again ... :cry: ...

The rest as per Lr said ... :)

Good luck , hope all goes well ...
Andy...

[endless]

Just a quick question. When using metro to treat hex do you continue treatment for 3 days or 5 days? Some post say 3 days some say 5. Not sure which is correct.

[piranha-discus]

when i first braught my small discus they were healthy, now 2 months later, he hids goes abit dark but on the fins on the top it has 2 ear pirce size hole whould u able tell me whats the problem, because my other fish are bright in colour never hiding all eating normal but ear pierce size hole on the top fin,,,,, do u have any opinion what's the problem? are they have some kind of bacteria? I'm just wondering what's the hole on the top of the pin.. thanks

[Merrilyn]

There is an excellent article to be found here on Hole in the Head disease. Well worth reading.

http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml#1.%20%20Introduction%20–%20Comm on%20Symptoms

[petros]

Hello guys! I have a discus with HITH problem. I first noticed the prob about a month (or more) ago and since then Im trying to cure him with no results till I read the treatment from this forum. I use 1000mg metro (finally I found a drug store to supply it) every 12 hrs with 30% water changes. I apply the treatment since the 21th of March and the discus seems to be recovering. He is eating OK and the color of his poo is OK. I should notice that I have added at the prescription some salt cause the discus was also plague infected. The ques is If I have to continue the treatment for at least ten days as many recommend or to reduce the dosage. The bad thing is that the discus is still hiding at the corner and he is not coming out very often only at "lunch" time. Any comments? Thanks!

[Merrilyn]

Hi petros, from what you are saying, I'd continue to treat for the full 10 days. This is one disease that can be very difficult to cure, and if you cut the treatment short, you risk it coming back again.

It's pretty normal for him to be hiding during treatment. I think metro makes the water taste pretty bad. Now that he's eating again, try mixing some of it with his food, then it will go straight into the gut, where it will do the most good.

[petros]

Thanks laryred. At the morning dose I mix vitamins and at the night dose the metro. I think that Im doing OK and I ll carry on the treatment. I would appreciate any recs!

[petros]

Hello there! The treatment of the HITH is finishing on Saturday (more than the 10 days). What should I do next? Im thinking of daily vitamin enriched food. Any recs? What about water changes? Thanks!

[Merrilyn]

How is the fish acting now Petros. Is he back to normal eating, and are the droppings back to the normal colour? If so, he can be safely returned to the community tank.

You might like to leave him in the isolation tank for a few more days, so you can concentrate on feeding him those vitamin enriched foods. It will help to get his strength back after his illness.

Move him back into the main tank when you are satisfied he is fully recovered.

[petros]

Thanks for the advice laryred. He is eating OK but his colours and behaviour are not totally OK, so Im gonna keep him at the quarantine tank for some days as you suggest. Thanks again for the advice!

[petros]

Hello there! I do believe that Im HITH cursed. I recently bought a discus who acted and looked very normal at the pet store. Unfortunately the store didnt have strong lights, so when I brought him home and settle him at the tank I noticed tiny tiny holes at his head. The next day I put him at quarantine tank with the other patient, who was at the recovery stage, (no drugs used at the moment). I carried out a 3 day strong curement with metro as recommended by this forum, which is very effective. The prob is that both them are eating and produce wastes OK but time by time they shake like they are hited by electricity. Do you know what this is?? Im sorry so the long text but I badly want to put them back at the large tank. Ah! I have to notice that when I added the second discus at the quarantine tank the first one become more happy and energetic. I do believe that they might be a couple:) Thanks for your time

[RedcarDiscus]

I have a blue diamond with hole in the head and I have a few questions.

1. Is it contagious to my other discus?

2. If I do not have a quarantine tank is there a way to treat it without harming my other fish?

3. How bad is Hole in the head? Will it eventually kill her? What does this disease do, besides the holes in the head?

Luis,

1. Is it contagious to my other discus?
Yes,
2. If I do not have a quarantine tank is there a way to treat it without harming my other fish?
Best to treat the whole population in the same tank as this will reduce
stress in all the fish and make the condition easier to treat as stress
plays a very large part in the HITH condition. Also keep the tank
exceedingly clean by w/c and gravel cleaning between doses.
3. How bad is Hole in the head? Will it eventually kill her? What does this disease do, besides the holes in the head?
Depends on how strong she is and how far the condition has spread
before you start Metro and heat treatment.Bacteria and skin problems, internal bacteria/parasites, it can sometimes cause all sorts.
Luis, have a look at this 7 yr old RSL i recently lost, he was a perfect
breeding male and a dam good dad in the past, he always suffered from HITH but it was always an indicator to me of stress in the tank. After some time of stress free living he was back to normal .He didn't suffer from the white excretia as some HITH cases do, but on this occasion he started to show and within 36 hrs and a 50% w/c he was dead. this was HITH but with a bacteria infection which spread so rapidly that Metro etc would not have caught it.Hence the answer in 2.There is a growing feeling in the UK that all Discus fish have the condition and that it is triggered by stress

This is him pictured below half way through.

http://www.discusfishuk.com/discusfishforum//index.php?showtopic=1037
This is a link to one of the UK sites with a further explanation.

These are just my experiences and thoughts, but i hope she pulls through as this what makes discus keepers wonder why the h**l we bother.
Good Luck
Colin


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[Darth_discus]

poor fish

well all the best to your fish and you luis

Good luck :cry:

[RedcarDiscus]

Luis,

Apologies for the last post i gave i didn't get the quote,copy and paste parts right so i have re posted .

1. Is it contagious to my other discus?
Yes,
2. If I do not have a quarantine tank is there a way to treat it without harming my other fish?
Best to treat the whole population in the same tank as this will reduce
stress in all the fish and make the condition easier to treat as stress
plays a very large part in the HITH condition. Also keep the tank
exceedingly clean by w/c and gravel cleaning between doses.
3. How bad is Hole in the head? Will it eventually kill her? What does this disease do, besides the holes in the head?
Depends on how strong she is and how far the condition has spread
before you start Metro and heat treatment.Bacteria and skin problems, internal bacteria/parasites, it can sometimes cause all sorts.
Luis, have a look at this 7 yr old RSL i recently lost, he was a perfect
breeding male and a dam good dad in the past, he always suffered from HITH but it was always an indicator to me of stress in the tank. After some time of stress free living he was back to normal .He didn't suffer from the white excretia as some HITH cases do, but on this occasion he started to show and within 36 hrs and a 50% w/c he was dead. this was HITH but with a bacteria infection which spread so rapidly that Metro etc would not have caught it.Hence the answer in 2.There is a growing feeling in the UK that all Discus fish have the condition and that it is triggered by stress

This is him pictured below half way through.

http://www.discusfishuk.com/discusfishforum//index.php?showtopic=1037
This is a link to one of the UK sites with a further explanation.

These are just my experiences and thoughts, but i hope she pulls through as this what makes discus keepers wonder why the h**l we bother.
Good Luck
Colin

A useful dose of 500mgs per 10 imp gall at a temp of above 90degC is the recommended, with a w/c after 12 hrs then redose as above . This should take 7 days then full w/c and a redose if required,but remember that Metro efficiency is reduced considerably the higher the temp. If the fish is eating try and get Metro into it via its normal food as this will make the Metro more effective.





Let us know how things are going.

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for the comments RedcarDiscus, but I think you'll find this post is about 12 months old.

The discus belonging to Luis that were mentioned in this thread, have long since recovered.

Sorry to hear you lost your fish. This can be a terribly hard disease to cure. At best, I think we keep it under control.

[redmelon]

HITH hit my big white swan really hard, and sad to say it passs-way few days ago, i can not find the medicine - Metro, where can i buy this without any prescription?

[Proteus]

Just an FYI.

A few so called wanna-be experts on other forums are recommending that Prazi is the best treatment for HITH, LLE (Spironucleus vortens).

This is so far from the actual truth it is dangerous.

Metro is the best medication that can be used for such instances.

[gro]

have rung around a lot and starting to get HITH myself!..and getting the sense that vets really don't want anything to do with me....does anyone have any ideas where to get Metro...or do i have to go "underground"!!

[gro]

oops.....just saw the other sticky post about where to try and get it

[gro]

has anyone had luck treating hole in the head with pimafix? spoke to a vet, would not give me metro but said to try pimafix???


anyone??

[flaggy]

apparently octozin also treats hith - do a search for "octozin" and "hith" in this forum and google. Octozin is readily available (from our sponsors online, etc)

[sammigold]

I cant see that Pimafix would fix it but hey! you did say it was a vet that said this. Shouldnt he know? Maybe it can work for early symptoms as it is meant to be a natural antibacterial medication.

[fishgeek]

primafix claims effects against fungal infections
not sure of the natural source and any scientific literature to support it , i would guess that said vet didnt want to get involved in prescribing to fish

andrew

[sammigold]

I have a bottle of pimafix here and it says that it treats "mouth & body fungus;cottony growth;fin & tail rot; redness of skin & body" Active constituents: Pimenta Racemosa (Bay oil) 9.8 g/L

It claims on the front of the bottle the following,

quote: "All natural antifungal remedy for the treatment of aquarium fish diseases"
"Rapidly treats funal infections on body and fins
Also treats internal and external bacterial infections"
end quote.

There is a web address www.aquariumpharm.com where I assume you could probably find out more.

cheers
sammi


I have used it with success on guppies and tetras suffering columnaris but havent tried using it on my discus ever.

[gro]

thanks guys,

still early stages but not really impressed so far as last night some more very small spots have started next to the original spot - not looking great.

he goes very dark everytime i put it in and then comes good. He was eating better before i started the pimafix, now holds back from food. he was eating like a trojan last week even with the HITH. (the other discus seem fine)

-the other smaller fish seem to be swimming irregularly (but i could be being paraniod)

any suggestions how long i trial it for as the vet said it could take some time to heal..(months?).....kinda don't want to find out it doesn't work after a month and lose valuable time as i recognised it pretty early.

For those that have fixed HITH how long in your experience did it take??

[sammigold]

I have never had a fish with HITH so cannot advise in that gro.

Some people say that it can be reversed with excellent water regimes and cutting down meat in the diet. (i am not advocating this just mentioning what I have read)

good luck

[Merrilyn]

The craters in the head are thought to be due to a dietary deficiency which is often associated with other symptoms, such as white jelly droppings when it's termed Hexemita.

Holes in the head doesn't necessarily mean that your fish has hex, but it certainly has one of the symptoms.

In this case, we treat the symptoms (the holes) while waiting to see if the fish develops the full blown disease.

In the case of your fish, it seems to be developing fairly quickly, so I would treat on two fronts. One with diet and clean water, and the second with metro.

I would add some vegetables to the diet, either in the form of spinach or green peas or beans in the beefheart mix, and at the same time, add a small dose of fish vitamins, or childrens liquid vitamins to the mix.

Clean water is terribly important during the treatment, so I'd be changing water at least three times weekly.

If you can get hold of some metro, I'd be using that too at the recommended dose, to prevent the disease getting any worse.

[samir]

Just an FYI.
A few so called wanna-be experts on other forums are recommending that Prazi is the best treatment for HITH, LLE (Spironucleus vortens).


it seems to be the new wonder drug for all types of worms as well :roll: can't believe the cr@p i read sometimes.