Sump setup for 6x2x2 need assitance

[axl]

Hi Guys,
Im building new house and are going to put a 6x2x2 tank in the wall and having a sump as the filtration.

Im going to have a drain built into the bottom of the cabinet and get a tap put in there as well for automatic water changes but not sure how to plumb all that as well???

My problem is I know only a little bit about sumps and need some help on how to set it up. My questions are as follow:

Do i need a overflow made for the tank?
What media do i need for the sump? i.e bio balls, ceramic noodles
How am I going to plumb it for automatic water changes???
sump size: 1300 x 360 x 460 (is that big enough???)
eheim 1262 return pump

Here are some pics of whats its going to look like and help would be appreciated

Cheers Axl

[Exotic Aquatic]

Hey Tim!

i was thinking a lot about this, and i came to realise a few things...
1, 6 X 2X2 (2 ft wide>?) how wide is the wall going to be?

2, how a float style refill system will work if you are running a sump? (which i think is a great idea, sumps rock for oxidisation of loose anions and nasties).

3, how as i get older, i also get dumber.

In essence, when it doubt, ask ILLUSN!!!

He smart more me, make you fix on problem and design good!

[axl]

basically there will be a hole cut in the wall to fit the tank and cabinet with a false wall up the top on 1 side and then you will be able to view it from the other side as well.

[Exotic Aquatic]

i gathered that, but 2ft wide, is far wider than a standard wall, so its going to need some more thought than just a hole in the wall. May need a cabinet maker and a structural engineer? Most wall tanks you see are VERY narrow to cater for a standard cavity, as they sit flush on both sides.

Just something to think about.

on another note, a customer of mine has just finished building a 6X3X3 island bench tank in his kitchen. with a top trickle sump, hidden by a routed out butcher block style benchtop, looks GREAT with a set of knives on it!!!

[axl]

yeah i have shown my builder what im after and he is working on it at the moment

[swampy1972]

Hi Axl.

It sounds like an amazing project. I look forward to seeing it come together.

Sumps are a great option for your setup. Easy to maintain and lots of bio capacity.

You can use just about anything in terms of media, from bio-balls to plastic pot scrubbers or plastic onion bags.. :)

You can either use a stand pipe on it's own or weir in terms of return water. Either way, they'll determine the water level and how much water will flow into the sump if you have a power outage. Look up Durso stand pipe and use one of these - great for reducing the noise of a weir/standpipe and very easy to DIY.

Unlike canisters that are a closed loop system, sumps are a gravity return meaning the return pump pushes excess water into the tank and the excess overflows to the sump. When the power goes out, any excess + what ever amount of water is in the pipes will flow back into the sump, so it also needs to have the capacity to accept it. That's why you always see at least the last chamber running at a low water level when running.

Your proposed sump size should work. Just have a look at some different designs to get maximum effectiveness. Hollowman once posted a good pic of one of his new sump designs = very well laid out and well worth a search.

The 1262 should be a good start. Be sure to consider the loss of flow due to head height, but 4x times per hour tank volume turnover is a good start. You're trying to strike a good balance between turn over and contact time for water to filter media. Too much turn over = too little contact time for the bacteria to do it's work.

You also need to determine which style of sump. Wet sump or wet/dry..
Wet = all media fully submerged. Wet/dry is pretty self explanatory. There are benefits to both. Wet systems work on anerobic bacteria only, whereas the wet/dy systems also have the benefit of aerobic bacteria too. Some say the wet/dry are overall more efficient, so less media required = smaller sump, but they are considerably louder as the water falls through the media. Wet sumps are much quieter but require more media for the same size tank.

Clear as mud? :lol:

[Nev]

Hi axl,

Have given this a little thought even though l'm also a newbie to sumps. And whilst I know what I'd change in mine, I'm probally better at telling you what not to do.

Firstly, not sure how you're going to manage to get an auto water change happening. I've seen saltwater setups with a float valve to top up the water level, but they have a lot of evaporation due to the open top combined with extra strong and hot lighting. They don't water change straight from a tap usually R/O water in a holding tank.

While I think of it, if your getting a tap plumbed in there also have a drain (if you haven't already thought of that). I'm sure you have but nothing wrong in pointing out the obvious.

Ok, back on track now. You've obviously researched all the plusses of a sump V canisters so I won't rehash that for you. Sumps do have drawbacks too that you'll have to work around and from my limited experience the main one is you won't get it right the first time, so you've got to design some flexibilitity into it. The best way of doing that is to go bigger rather than just right. Have ball valves on the outlet and inlet lines, be prepared to experiment with different return setups.

The return is where you get to experiment a lot, poorly set up and water over the weir will sound like a waterfall. The water returning into the sump will sound like a toilet flushing and filling constantly. You can make it silent but its not something you can just design and make and then have working perfectly first time.

Don't copy a saltwater design as they have different needs to you. Salt water sumps all have bubble traps to eliminate micro bubbles causing cavitation in the return pump. Refugiums and live rock sections. All unnessasary for fresh water.

Get it right and life will be a lot better, you wont need to do 50% water changes because you've got so much more water so it won't fluctuate anything like a normal setup. You'll have unreal biological filtration, planted tanks are fine just don't pick the hard to grow stuff that needs co2 injection if you go the wet/dry route.

Arrgh ......

I'm way too negative!
Have a look at who posted the pics of sumps in my help post. they were awesome and designed and made by someone who knew what they were doing.

Wow I never type this much, beer break time :thumb

[Nev]

Ok fresh beer next to me.

By the way did I happen to mention I've got a pair of discus in my sump fanning eggs as I type? I didn't but just though I'd slip that in.

Monolicious is the man!
To save you looking back at his pics I'll copy them to here, hopefully he'll reply and send you some drawings.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/PeterMizzi/My%20Fish/8x3x2Update008.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/PeterMizzi/My%20Fish/8Footer005.jpg


My favorite, note the two inlets one return.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/PeterMizzi/My%20Fish/FTS005.jpg

This is the one to copy if your designing one from scratch. Just can't see a spot for my pair to lay eggs.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/PeterMizzi/My%20Fish/P2190001.jpg


:wave

[axl]

Righto guys thanks for the info, i will run this design of sump as it looks excellent for media capacity and looks simple enough.

Why has he got two pumps going in that sump????

What size pipes do you use for the inlet and outlet??? 1 inch do you use??

Is 2 return lines needed to reduce noise???? like in this setup if so i will put 2 lines in.

Would you guys put a weir in??? or just get 2 holes drilled for inlet and outlet

That sump would be a wet sump wouldnt it???

Cheers Axl

[Nev]

He has only one pump, the return line is the flexible one in the middle.

One inch min inlet, 1/2 inch min return.

Weir is good, other options are too but I can't speak about them as don't know enough about them.

That sump is a wet/dry sump.
Look at the water levels and flow path through the various weirs, the bio balls are not submersed if you look closely.

[axl]

Yeah ok

Would use that design if you were going to make a sump but make it a wet sump instead of a wet/dry.

Illusn said that a 750 x 500 x 350 would be enough capacity as that holds 30ltr of media.

I will go i think 900 x 500 x 350 which should give me plenty of room for media.

Cheers Axl