Rapid breathing relapse?

[Bill T.]

Hello everyone.
I'm new to this site - since my local aquariums don't give me adequate support, I am hoping you guys can help.
This is my third attempt at keeping Discus - have suffered some wipeouts in the past, but I can't help but try again.
I have a 240 litre tank with plants, wood, rock & four discuss that I inherited from a brood by a couple of red turquoise.
I got the first two about 6 months ago & they have grown like anything with good color in an 80 litre tank. Then I got two more from the same brood but they were very small. These I put into a new 240 litre tank & they "helped" with the cycling. Post cycle I moved the first two to the new 240litre tank about 3 months ago & all went well initially

About three weeks ago I woke to a very sick looking discuss, loss of balance, poor color, rapid respiration. It recoverred during the day, but I noticed a fair bit of scratching amongst all the fish, so I commenced a 10day treatment with sterazine (assuming this to be gill flukes) which seemed to fix everything.

Three days ago I thought one of the initial discus had some discolring at the base of the tail fin (my partner said it looked grey-I'm a bit color blind so am at a disadvantage) so I have been treating with melafix.

This morning I find all four discus to have rapid breathing & the smaller of them is spending a bit of time at the surface. I also notice infrequent scratching.

I'm preparing to do a 25%water change & see what happens, but I think we have a relapse of the initial problem. I did put some new plants in the tank from a "trusted" source about a week ago? Did I fail to eradicate the bug first time or have I reinfected? Or have I missed something?

Water Chemistry: 0 Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. pH=7.2 & I buffer with kH = 5dkh currently.

[Merrilyn]

Hi Bill, welcome to the forum. Let's see if we can make your third attempt at discus keeping successful. :wink:

Now, a couple of things concern me. First, you say that the smaller discus were used to help cycle the tank. Discus are very sensitive to ammonia and nitrite, and are not an ideal fish for this kind of job. The high readings can irrepairably damage the gills during cycling, so that may be part of your problems. If they then contracted gill flukes after that, it's going to compound the problem.

The other thing that bothers me is that you say you have no nitrate reading. A cycled tank should have no ammonia, no nitrite and at least some nitrate. Can you check your readings again?

I hear from fellow hobbyists that there is a fairly resistant strain of gill flukes in Melbourne at the moment, so you may need to try a different treatment, like Aquamaster gill fluke and tapeworm tablets or Wardleys Para-ex.

At this stage, I'd like to see you doing 25% daily water changes, and also add an extra airstone to the tank, to help increase oxygen. During treatment, your water temperature should not exceed 28 degrees.

Hope that helps.

[Bill T.]

Thank you for your reply, Ladyred.
I do feel guilty about the small discus during the cycle process, but I didn't have anywhere to put them. In retrospect, I should not have accepted them, because my original two were going fine, so I do think part of the reason for the latest aquisitions being so small might be they were unhealthy anyway (remember they were all from the same brood initially).

I did a 25% water change on Sunday morning & respiration reduced for a while but increased during the day, so I have strarted another course of Sterazin. By today they look a bit better. Still eating, breathing a bit hard but not as hard as yesterday.

I have two spray bars discharging onto the water surface (eheim canister filters one each end of the tank) which I thought would allow sufficient gas transfer/O2 levels. I don't have an air pump at this stage, so I will have to get one. Is there a relatively quite model you could recommend?

As for the Nitrate reading, it could be a bit higher than 0 - I'm a bit color blind and am at a disavantage here - but it's not as high as 5ppm. Water temp. is between 28 & 29 oC, so I will turn it down a notch.

Do you think it's wise to do daily water changes whilst treating with the sterazine? Wouldn't this dilute the medication?

Also, is it conceivable that gill flukes (etc) have been transported on plants?

[Merrilyn]

I agree with your comments that they were probably unhealthy when you got them, if they came from the same batch but were very much smaller. It's possible they were already carying gill flukes, but going into an uncycled tank could haved stressed them enough to allow the fluke population to explode.

I think a lot of fish carry a light burden of gill flukes and other parasites, but it's not till they are stressed that it becomes a problem. I guess it's possible they could have been carried in on the plants, but I think the usual method of contamination is direct from fish to fish.

There are lots of good quiet air pumps available at your lfs. I find sitting one on a piece of foam rubber reduces the vibration, and hence the noise level.

Not sure about Sterazin, so can't comment on the water changes when using it. I use Aquamaster and you can still do your daily water changes between treatments. Flukes are almost impossible to eradicate completely, so treatment every 3-6 months is a good idea to keep the population down to safe levels.

[Bill T.]

Thank you Ladyred for your advice.
Further improvement noted today with day 3 of Sterazine.
Also, I have some little white bugs growing on the glass - sometimes they break away and swim about. The Discus are happily chasing them and eating them. I'm not sure if the Sterazin has caused these bugs to come off the glass & be more available, or if they have bloomed bc I have turned off the U.V. whilst treating with Sterazine.
Have you encounterred these bugs before? Are they a health risk for the fish?

Whilst my fish look healthier, I have succumed to a bug of my own, so have time to lay around watching them for a few days - I don't think Sterazine is helping, and it stains the tongue!

[Merrilyn]

LOL sorry to hear you're under the weather Bill. Errrrr no I don't think sterazin will help you :lol: Better to give it to the fish.

Very pleased to hear about the improvement. Keep up the good work.

The little bugs attached to the glass, ans swimming in the water are planaria. Fairly harmless, and good food. They come from the water supply.

[Trebs]

I've used Sterizin to treat for gill flukes without success. I found Aqua Master 'Fluke and Tapeworm tablets' worked really well for flukes. Some people swear by sterazin, other's hate it. Have a look at my older thread in the emergency section under 'headstanding discus'. Lots of good info about my experience treating for gill flukes.

[Bill T.]

Treb:
What ever happened to that headstanding fish? I looked at the picture - not good!
I am at day 4 of a second course of Sterazine & breathing rates seem O.K. I notice one of my discus however has periods when it hides away, stays in one spot with head down (not head standing). Does this indicate a disease problem? I'm tempted to stop the Sterazin & go for the Aquamaster treatment.

[Bill T.]

Regarding the discus that hides away, etc.
This evening I have noticed something unusual with this fish - it has a bilateral depression/cavity on its body, just behind the midpoint. Has anyone seen anything like this? What do you think it means?

[Merrilyn]

Bill can you post a photo of that fish.

[Bill T.]

Hello Ladyred.
Unfortunately I don't have a digital camera as yet (all pocket money goes on fish!) but I will ask a friend to take some pics for me.
The fish in question actually looks quite well today. It's body has filled out, swimming & eating well. At the advice of the guys from Bell Street Aquarium I added some extra aquarium salt late yesterday - don't know if this has anything to do with such a dramatic recovery?
Perhaps my fish had a bad stomach ache, or a blockage?
I remain hopeful - I've had this fish for about 6 months & watched it grow from a tiddler - so I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with it.