Bullying

[Loach]

I'm new to the forum so I haven't really gone through to see if there is another thread regarding this matter - please link it if there is and I'll read through that :)

Are there any ways to stop bullying? I've had bullying in the past amongst discus, but it seems to fade away when a hierarchy has been established... But it doesn't seem to be happening with one of my discus, could this just be a temperament? Is there anything I can do? I know for a fact the whole dynamic of the tank changed when she was added to the tank - but she is beautiful and a guest favorite, so I want to try avoid removing her.

Cheers

[BigDaddyAdo]

Any details on the set up and stock levels?

[Loach]

It's a 220L cube tank... 60x60x60 (cm)

It's got a few temporary inhabitants that are still young.. i.e.: Black Ghost Knife, a few Clown Loaches & an albino rainbow shark (or "golden" shark).

Currently there are 4 discus in the tank - I keep getting different opinions on stocking so I'm not sure how many more (if any) I can get!
All 4 discus are different sizes... however the conflict happens mainly with the 2nd biggest... she bosses around the 3rd largest whenever she wants.. My largest discus is a male (the rest are female) and only bullies the 2nd largest when she bullies the 3rd largest... meanwhile my smallest discus doesn't get bullied by anybody... I'm worried about my #3 as she doesn't get much of a chance to eat and I haven't taught her to hand-feed yet so I can't really get the food right too her...

Also a Bristlenose Catfish in there somewhere :P

Let me know if there are any other specific questions you need answered.

Cheers

[Exotic Aquatic]

stocking is a little high for the footprint of the tank isnt it?

I would remove all the other inhabitants and rescape the tank in a dramatically different way. (or remove EVERYTHING barr a single driftwood w/ anubius).

That might help, generally though establishing a pecking order is completely normal practice for discus, and it will subside eventually when they are ready. They shouldnt damage each other like say africans or larger central/south american guapotes, its simply a common formality to establish rank.

[Loach]

I receive so much different input about stocking... it frustrates me that there isn't a general rule of thumb that everybody caring for discus follows.

A rescape of the tank was planned for mid this month - which might force #2 to redraw territorial lines and stop bullying, worry more about the tank itself.
But at the same time you say to remove EVERYTHING, can't REALLY happen - Mature tank... the substrate is weaved with various plants, although I can move around the driftwood and a few of the less mature plants, some of the bigger ones aren't coming out...

I figure it's just natural, but I just don't want her to stop feeding.

[Exotic Aquatic]

things will almost always sort themselves out
, so dont fret mate.

Just try to remove as many of the other tank mates as possible whenever possible and keep up big frequent water changes.

[Loach]

They are in impeccable water conditions :) All should be fine, just fretting over my babies (as I'm sure a lot of people do...

But since we're on the topic of me (vain much?), a friend of mine that keeps discus said that introducing more discus could even distract the #2 and de-stress the #3.. but to time it with a tank re-scape so that it's almost like a new tank for all of them

Thoughts?

[Exotic Aquatic]

his right in some respects, but id be hesitant in recommending more fish for that tank size, (even though im a discus seller!). It is of course up to you at the end of the day, but may i recommend getting some other opinions here first? Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable older members or site advisors may post?

[Loach]

Yeah I'm not going to jump into getting any new discus just yet - thanks again

[BigDaddyAdo]

4 is not a good number to have IMO. 5 is better but your tank is not big enough.

You should reduce your stock levels. The BGK will have to go.

What filtration are you running?

[Loach]

As mentioned earlier: BGK, loaches & shark are all TEMPORARY additions to the tank...

I've received advice saying I could keep up to 7 to max 8 in this tank... coming from an experienced aquarist..

I keep my water in pristine condition...
I'm running a Fluval 305

Personally, I believe my tank IS big enough for 5 max 6 with the temporary inhabitants gone... and right now all of the temps are adolescent and have no conflict with the discus.

[BigDaddyAdo]

5 is manageable. 6+ and I think you will have issues.

[Loach]

What kind of issues do you mean? 6 is the max number I'll put in this tank - and only with the temp inhabitants moved to another tank...

[ILLUSN]

You have a 2x2x2 cube which gives you ~200L with change, thats enough for 4-5 discus (40-50L each) your filtration is fine (305 will handel 200L ok, with dilligence, maybe concider the aquaone 1200 or an eheim 2217 if you want a little safety extra margin)

Once you move on the temps I'd add another discus to try and bring down the bullying, make sure its the same size as the bully or bigger.

[Exotic Aquatic]

Well there you have it Dylan, These two gents CERTAINLY know what they are doing, cant get better advice online! Good luck with your endeavors:D

[Loach]

Thanks for all the advice - the Fluval 305 is built for 300L so it's handling my tank with ease.

Should probably mention that this is not a permanent housing for these fellas.. when they reach a certain age I'll be trading with a mate of mine that has a 10ft tank and several breeding pairs, he'll then give me juvenile ones to care for until once again they reach that certain age.

Again Thank-you for everything.

And keep a look out for me EA ;)

[ILLUSN]

Thanks for all the advice - the Fluval 305 is built for 300L so it's handling my tank with ease.

WRONG the 305 is RATED for a 300L tank under ideal conditions.

Generally real world capacity = RATED capacity/3 so your 305 is fine for a 100L discus tank, the reverse flow of the Eheim classics with lower flowrates and huge media capacity (for their size) greatly improves their biological effectivness. So the real world capacity of an eheim 2217 is closer to 300L then 200L (but still way less then the 600L that eheim rates them at).

Keep on top of your maintence dont let uneaten food or fish waste hang around and your 305 will do the job, Remember the filter isnt there to keep the tank clean, thats YOUR job. The filter is there to help you inbetween cleans by breaking down ammonia to nitrate so your fish dont die.

Appologies if this sounds harsh buts its a really important point to make.

[Loach]

Not harsh at all, I don't take offense to that because I maintain my tank at impeccable conditions.

I do regular gravel vacs and water changes to boot..

Thanks again for the info.

[maxpayne40]

Quote: "Keep on top of your maintence dont let uneaten food or fish waste hang around and your 305 will do the job, Remember the filter isnt there to keep the tank clean, thats YOUR job. The filter is there to help you inbetween cleans by breaking down ammonia to nitrate so your fish dont die. "

That summed up really well a lot of things I have been trying to understand. I think I was in the mindset that the filter does the work, whereas you have pointed out that is not correct. More summations like that I will start to understand the whole concept.....thanks

[swifto]

hi,i would allow about 70ltr per discus to b safe as it gives room for growth.