Phosphates in Water

[benanddebbie]

Hi we are relatively new here but hoping someone can help us out.

We have huge phosphate levels (ie 2) that will not come down. We have been doing 50 % water changes everyday now for almost a week with no chane in the levels. The new water has no phosphates in it.

We have thoroughly cleaned the tank and the filters were cleaned a couple of weesk ago.

How do we get the phosphates down?

Regards

Ben and Debbie

[Merrilyn]

Hi Ben and Debbie, and a big welcome to the forum. Can you give us a few details about your setup, and the area you are from.

First, how big is your tank, and what sort of gravel are you using. Do you have any rocks or driftwood in there, and ornaments.

I need to know all the details about your water, so please test your tapwater, after it has aged for 24 hours, and after it has been in the tank for 24 hours.

If the phosphates are not coming from your tap, then it has to be something in the tank, and we may need to try a process of elimination.

Do you have an algae problem, or are your plants rotting. Some dry fish foods are also high in phosphates, so check your label.

What test are you using to measure phosphates.

[shrimp paste]

I too am having the same problem with the added unwated side-effect of an algae bloom. I have been fighting it for about two weeks now with daily 50% water changes and little impact.

Over the weekend i took a sample of water to the LFS and we tested phosphates at off the scale. All else at 6.8,0,0,0

So where is it coming from? In my case there is little food waste or decaying plant matter as I am running bare with a few potted plants and some drift wood.

Inspection of the agents I use to treat my water (namely to reduce alkilinity), I think it's called PH Down, is actually phosphate based.
So my massive water changes seem to have been loading my system with massive levels of phosphate, which algae seems to be partial too.

I am now using a product from SeaChem that is phosphate free, but time is yet to tell if this is\was the cause... It was very expensive but if it fixes the problem great. The LFS did say cheap chemicals, cheap results...

I also purchased some phosphate removing media (3 small satchels) that I have placed in the filter to try and remove the phosphates. This was pretty resonable at under $20 for approx 3 months active.

I have also heard phosphates may be found in tap water, and some activated carbons.

I guess the lesson here for me, is to pay more attention to the agents I use in treating my water.

Give me a week or so to see if my changes have had the desired effect.

I must get that crystal clear water back.....Arrrrrrrrrrr :(

[Merrilyn]

I agree shrimp paste, it it's not coming from the tap water, then it has to be something we add to the tank. Please keep us posted on how the SeaChem stuff works.

[benanddebbie]

Here are the details of our set up:

We have a 6'x2'x2' aquarium with river sand, plants, two largish pieces of driftwood, and a number of small rocks. They have all been used for a long time.

The tank is lighted by 3 metal halides and is stocked with 6 disucs, ~30 cardinals, 10 black widow tetras, 10 rummy noses and 6 bristlenoses.

The tank is filtered by 2 Fluval cannister filters and runs at about 32degrees. Both filters, all the gravel, and plants have been cleaned thoroughly recently.

We usually use RO water but because of the large quantity of water we have been changing daily we have been usung tap water. Here are the specs:

RO water: Ph: 6.8
PO4: 0

Aged tap: Ph: 6.8
PO4: 0

Fresh Tap: Ph: 7.0
PO4: 0.1

Tank after 24 hours: Ph: 6.4
PO4: 2+

WE do have algae in the tank which allerted us to a problem with the phosphates. Like I said we have cleaned gravel and plants thoroughly. No rotting plants they are all healthy.

Don't know whythe phosphates are up or why we can't get them down.

HTH

Debbie

[Merrilyn]

Hi Debbie. I have a few suggestions for you to try. First, drop your temperature back to 29 - 30 degrees. We try to keep the higher temperatures for the hospital tank. In your situation, any uneaten food will go off really quickly at that temp, and cause an increase in phosphate levels. Higher temps also increase the fish metabolism, meaning more food, more waste and more phosphates.

The quick drop in pH from 7 to 6.4 within 24 hours is pretty dramatic. For the time being, remove the driftwood and the rocks and see if the tank holds stable.

I'm doing some more research on this, so I'll get back to you with any further ideas.

[Merrilyn]

Just a final thought, are you using any plant fertilizer or putting any additives in the water.

[Rgoganj]

Hi Ben and Debbie,

The main culprit in any phosphate problems is fish food, Ph down powder (as most ph down powder is a Bi-phosphate chemical) and plant fert’s.

I did have a problem about 3-4 months ago with phosphates reaching 40ppm (Nitrates were 180ppm) but with frequent water changes and changing to a none phosphate ph down powered I’ve managed to reduce the phosphates down to .5ppm – 1.0 ppm

If the tank is new (less than 6 months) you will find it’s still cycling, planted tanks tend to cycle slightly differently to fish only tanks. I’ve read some research that a planted tank can take up to a year to cycle. (That’s to use and convert phosphates and nitrates) :shock:

[shrimp paste]

I have had very positive results in reducing my phosphates and consequent algae bloom over the last 4 days through:

Placing 3 bags of Hagen Green - X Phosphate remover in my filter media.
Using non-phosphate PH Down from SeaChem - Acid buffer,

and perofming 50% water change every 48hrs with the aged and treated water (Seachem Acid Buffer).

Its is far from perfect but at least i can now see through my tank length - wise. Previously was lucky to see half way through it.

Will keep up the regime and should be back to perfect in another week or so. :D

[Merrilyn]

Good to hear that shrimp paste. Keep us posted.

Debbie, have you seen any reduction of phosphates in your tank yet.

[benanddebbie]

We will try to answer a couple of posts in one here...

Firstly, Fish Food .... we feed our fish frozen food either community dinner, discus dinner, brine shrimp and blood worm. They get 6 cubes a day. Occassionally we feed them disucs bits. There is nothing on the label to say if they do or don't contain phosphates although it does say "does not pollute water".

So we don't think overfeeding or food going bad or rotten is an issue. Forgot to add in one post that the tank also has two clown loaches in it so any food at the bottom soon gets demolished.

Secondly, water treatments...we have nothing in our tank. No ph up or down, and no plant ferterlizers. Once every so often we have used Stress Coat or Mela fix but that was a while ago now and with so many water changes and the quantity can't see how that would still be in the tank.

Thirdly...we took your advise and have dropped the temp. We have been running at 29 degrees since Monday.

We are still doing 50 % water changes, along with cleaning the algae. Ph is at 7 and not dropping overnight but PO4 is still above 2 ppm. So no change yet in phosphates???

We are off to the city this weekend (4 hours away) so maybe we will look into the phosphate removers to put in the filter media.

On the up side with all teh water changes two of the fish are "trying/practicing" to spawn :)

Regards

Ben and Debbie

[Merrilyn]

This is a real puzzle. I'm still hitting the books to come up with an answer.

Are you on tank water or bore water by any chance, or on town water.

Anyway, at least the fish are loving it.

[Merrilyn]

One last thought - do you use activated carbon in your filter. Some carbons can leach phosphate into the water.

[Proteus]

I know you answered this before, but are you certain there is no traces of phosphates in the tap water???

this is quite unusual...

usually when you get phosphates in the water, good chance the source water body is very old.

recently Sydney water had higher than usual phosphate levels, after making lots of enquiries it was established that the water was being accessed from levels that have been untouched for 30-60 years (dams have very little water movement).

Carbon will help, as will reverse osmosis.

[kalebjarrod]

how old is your test kit?

lets check the tester first off :wink:

[benanddebbie]

As far as phosphates in tap water - we thought the same so have tested a number of times on separate days returning near zero readings every time.

Phosphate test kit is now three weeks old, brought new dupla kit.

We also have activated carbon as part of the filtration media.

We would expect to see change at some point given the amount of water changes occurring.

[faewyn]

The substrate could be a leaching phosphates. I have had substrate that gave off phosphate for a while.

Just a thought :)

[kalebjarrod]

completely baffeled?


:?: :? :?: :? :?: :? :?: :? :?:

[Merrilyn]

Hi Ben and Debbie - how are you going with your phosphate problem. Any improvement yet.

[benanddebbie]

Well sorry we haven't posted recently we have been busy leading up to and over easter.

Our phosphates are down to 1 ppm. Not fantastic but better than before. We are continuing with water changes. Hopefully we will keep getting lower readings although not sure what is causing it.

Thanks for all you suggestions everyone.

[Merrilyn]

Well, at least it's heading in the right direction :?

One of our fellow forum advisors from America had some thoughts on the subject, and I will post her reply here:-


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Frozen foods are potential external phosphate sources. External as in, the things that "you" bring into the tank, not what actually develop naturally). Phosphate is the biproduct of the process of converting into a mineral, as a bone or a plant........dead matter from dying plants, or pieces that have been broken off, slime from the fish, poo, uneaten food, just about any type of algae are all internal contributors. Phosphates can also come about through water changes using tap water..( this is what I found has been a major factor. I have just recenlty gone through the "Phosphates issue" myself in the last few months, not because of tap water, but other issues... Phosphates are often associated with algae growth...And I had algae from ****. Not much fun.Usually planted tanks are suppose to have the advantage that plants are capable of storing and consuming phosphates, but with my high nitrates ( test kit went bad), it induced the algae and so forth.



Hope this helps.

[benanddebbie]

For those of you who are interested we have finally got on top of the phosphates by frequent 50 % water changes. We are still none the wiser to what set them off so high but fish doing well now. We have just posted some pics in the Photo Album forum.

Thanks again for all your help.