Breeding Angelfish

[mitsui]

Hi everyone

I have been doing a bit of research on breeding Angelfish. It seems that most of the info that I have read says that angel fish should reach maturity for spawing inbetween 5 & 7 months?

I have 3 angle fish that are about 14 months old, and nothing is happening, they don't seem to have paired or anything like that (I might just have all female or all male fish) but I thought I might see some action. :roll: . I did have 5 but 2 became sick and died. They are getting quite large now and I guess you could say I expected a pitter patter of little fins by now :lol: but NOTHING!! lol.

I have read that there is no way to sex them unless they have their tubes down, is this entirely true?

Any helpful info would be great about trying to get these guys to spawn wether it be from personal experience or something that you have read.

I really would like to have a go at breeding these guys

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Mitsui,

If you can post some pics that would be good, especially if you have some head on shots taken from either level or slightly below the fish. The sexes can be identified but it usually can't be done with a casual glance.

Regards,

Bob

[mitsui]

Thanks bob I will try to get some tonight and post them up after dinner

Thank you

[Mattzilla]

yeah pics will help

try to get them one at a time and side on

[mitsui]

Sorry it took so long to get the pic and a bigger SORRY for how crappy they are.

Hope some one can give me an idea

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0309.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0321.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0316.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0311.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0307.jpg

[Red Tail Shark]

Sorry it took so long to get the pic and a bigger SORRY for how crappy they are.

Hope some one can give me an idea
GIRL
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0309.jpg
POSSIBLE GIRL
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0321.jpg
NEED BTTER PIC
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0316.jpg
POSSIBLE GIRL BUT NEED BETTER PIC
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0311.jpg
GIRL
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0307.jpg

[Red Tail Shark]

best i can do with pics mate as matt said need side on pics this is the easiest way to pic them

cheers Caleb

[BobbyBruce]

Hate to disagree guys,

Easiest and most accurate method I have found for sexing angels is from in front and slightlhy below the fish. In a male fish the area in the vicinity of the vetrals will be noticeably convex while the female will be concave. Note, do not attempt sexing using this method directly after feeding.

Regards,

Bob

[Red Tail Shark]

depending on the varient bob that is generally harder to tell and is only 100% when there breeding which doesnt help our friend now if i could sex angels like that i would have any troubles sexing them at almost any age .
the problem is till the vents drop some males in that area can ba as big as females :) [/b]

[BobbyBruce]

Sorry if it is not working for you RTS,

Every time I go to get some Angels that is the method I have used. Yet to fail and many of the Angels (Scalare only) we get locally are bloody small.

Regards,

Bob

[Red Tail Shark]

i only breed half a dozen different varients of angelfish and supply half of sydney but what would i know must have got lucky upto this point maybe i should stick with cichlids

cheers RTS

[Mr Wild]

RTS

Can you explain what you look for with a side on pic that might help us identify what we have in our own tanks?

Kath

[Red Tail Shark]

Hi Kath

nice to meet you :) joe speaks highly of you

the 2 main things i look for is

1- a definate hump which indicates male but depends on shape some females just have big heads

2- plump bellies to indicate a female full of eggs

but in truth its still a educated guess have been breeding angels for number of yrs now i generally get it right, for me i can normally pic wether they look like a girl or a boy in my tanks, photo indentification is harder you cant see there behavior, the way they swim and sometimes none of this helps.....lol

All i can say is the more you keep them the more of a feel you get for picking them

Im more than happy to try and pic the sex of anymore pics that come up with my educated guess work ,lol

cheers RTS

[Mr Wild]

Hey thanx for the reply, well I will have to spend more time looking at them eh?

What foods do you feed to get them conditioned for breeding?

[Red Tail Shark]

mix of there normal food pellets and flake and frozen brinshrimp 3-4times a week ,joe has me trying a homeblended food problem is it smells so good i want to eat it my self :lol:

[Mr Wild]

LOL

Oh I doubt I will ever get to that!

Cheers!

[ILLUSN]

dont you dare eat that food mate It's way too good for you.

[Mattzilla]

This might help with sexing in the future

Males tend to have a bigger 'hump' and smaller more pointy breeding tube

Males tend to be bigger in overall size.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2487/3709008223_e0bab1cd28_z.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2567/3709007907_93531f62c6_z.jpg

Females will have no hump or a small hump and a fatter more blunt ended breeding tube

Females tend to be smaller in size and when they reach sexual maturity and find a partner will get fat in the belly with eggs

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2675/3709008345_c48bf8ebd1_z.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/3709008065_beeb351998_z.jpg


These are INDICATORS of sex, that means the only 100% way of telling is to see them spawn.

I have been wrong a few times when i was 100% sure!

hth
matt

[Mr Wild]

LOL Matt

Yep I get ya there "wrong when you have been 100%"!

[mitsui]

Thanks for that Matt  now i understand a lot better

[Red Tail Shark]

are you sure matt comon really how lon have you been breeding angels :wink:

cheers lol

[Mattzilla]

i still have much to learn from you 'oh wise one' hahahaa

[Red Tail Shark]

dare you to try some of joes food matt dble dare you lol you cant tell me after smelling it you werent a lil bit curious , surely the mouth was starting to drool just a bit

cheers RTS

[mitsui]

Well one of the girls finally layed eggs last night!!!!!!

I will post a vid when I cam upload the stupid thing!!

[mitsui]

Here it is excuse me in the background lol

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0473.mp4

[Exotic Aquatic]

nice!

are they meant to stick like discus eggs?

i have no idea about breeding angels

[mitsui]

Yeah they are this is the first time I have seen her lay eggs so I'm guessing she may need so practice lol or maybe some one else can suggest why they weren't sticking?

Now all I need to do is find a male (anyone got a proven male they wish to part with??) as I'm pretty sure they are all female as discussed earlier in this thread

[Mattzilla]

I have a nice big male that u can have

His parents were a dark zebra and a blushing blue so he carries some good genes. With that female they souls probably produce mostly silver zebras and silvers. This male has nice iridescent blu/green through his body. He has nice body shape and red eyes.

Hasn't bred before but he has never shared a tank with a mature female.

Let me know when you would like to pick him up if u r keen

Matt

[Mattzilla]

Ps I have never seen eggs not stick before..... Google it and see what you can find


Maybe with some practice she will get it

[mitsui]

Oh Matt thank you I will pm you and see if we can work something out, did you see in the vid how the eggs didn't stick? I thought it was really strange, but she was defending the leaf from 7 discus and 3 other angels maybe that was the reason

[Exotic Aquatic]

i once read something about higher ph and hardness playing a role. Apparently too much dissolved mineral can have an effect?

Best google it for more info, but from what i read (cant remember quite where but i will try to), lowering ph and softening the water will help them stick.

again only a vague membory but worth reading into.

[mitsui]

I have a heap od drift wood in the tank last time I tested it was at about 6.2 so I don't thing that is the problem have googled it yet

[Mattzilla]

Pm replied.... Sorry I thought u were in Sydney

U should update your location in your user profile

Cheers
Matt

[Mattzilla]

I read a little online about eggs not sticking.

Some said it may be dietary deficiencies..... Make sure you feed a wide variety of foods and include frozen brine shrimp and blood worms

Another train of thought was that it sometimes happened the first few times an angel spawned. So perhaps a maturity thing. They said it will correct itself quickly


I would suggest letting it spawn a few more times before you worry about it.

If you have 3 other angels in the tank chances are there is a male there. Give them some time and she may choose a male from your tank

Good luck with it all

Matt

[mitsui]

The other angels in the tank are discussed in this thread pretty sure they are all female.

They get fed blood worms, brine shrimp, community dinner and pellets oh and veg so they get a pretty varied diet, I think it might just inexperience will soon find out.
Matt you have a pm

[mitsui]

Well here is what I brought today :) hoping that you guys are going to tell me it's a male, it looks male to me

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/401775a5.jpg

[Mattzilla]

Looks like a male. Time will tell

Good luck!!!!

[mitsui]

Well he has a bump so that's a start lol

He is already fighting with the female zebra which is good????

Thanks Matt for all your help

[Mattzilla]

No worries

Yeah they might fight a little before pairing. It's like they are testing the other to see if they are strong enough to be a good mate

I have had pairs that will pretty much bash each other before spawning... So much so that I have been worried about fish being killed!

Good luck, keep us posted


I'll try to post some pics soon of my angels that are breeding at the moment. My pc blew up so I have to wait for it to be fixed

[Red Tail Shark]

looks like a definate male to mate well done all the best with your upcoming spawns (fingers crossed) make sure you are familar with hatching brine shrimp you will need them for when they free swim

cheers RTS

[mitsui]

Ok so now my platinum has started cleaning a leaf as well she picks at it a bit then swims off for a while and goes back and starts cleaning it again, but she seems to be doing it to 2 leaves as if she can't decide which one?? Any ideas? It's the exact leaf the other female tried to lay her eggs on.

Also the female which layed eggs the other day she only layed about 20 any reason why? Inexperience? Dud?


Looks like a definate male to mate well done all the best with your upcoming spawns (fingers crossed) make sure you are familar with hatching brine shrimp you will need them for when they free swim

cheers RTS

Thanks RTS

Have never hatched brine shrimp before but have read alot about doing it lol

[Ghoti]

Hatching the shrimp is easy mitsui. I've only done it a couple of times but pretty much mix up the solution, bung it in your DIY hatchery, pop in half a teaspoon of eggs and 24-36 hours later voila!

A syringe (from the chemsist) with a bit of air tubing on the end makes it easy to harvest them.

As for the baby angels, I left the first lot in the community tank and lost the lot. This time I caught the swimmers and transferred to the QT tank, but only 1 made it through (about the size of a 5c coin now).

Next time I think I'll try moving the plant and parents before the eggs hatch and see how I go.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mattzilla]

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21504

Check the above link if you haven't already

[mitsui]

I knew it wouldn't be to hard.

Thanks Matt for the link I looked at it when you first posted it but have now saved it for future reference :)

[mitsui]

Woo hoo I have got eggs!!!!!

They are doing a fantastic job of chasing everyone away and catching the ones that fall off and putting them back on occasionally eating one but hey it's their first time I don't expect much. I'm tossing up on wether to run out to bunnings and getting some perspex or not? Or do I just leave them be for their first time?

[Mattzilla]

Your best bet would be to give them a 2ft breeding tank of their own.

In the community tank the eggs or wrigglers would get eaten by the other fish...eventually it WILL happen

If they have small tank of their own (2-3ft) the fry have a good chance of survival and you can even grow the fry out to a stable size

You only need a large sponge filter and a heater

A piece of slate is a great spawning site

[Mattzilla]

Oh and congrats on the spawn!

[mitsui]

Thanks Matt, I'm kinda wishing I didn't buy that 4 footer last weekend! I know these eggs will get eaten but at least it's good practice and a hell of alot better than the first effort lol.

Going to head out to bunnings to see if I can
Find a piece of slate tomorrow for next time

[Mattzilla]

Cool

Scrub it well then boil it to steralise it

Good luck with everything, it's so much fun getting the first successful spawn

[mitsui]

It would be nice to have a successful spawn this time but I don't think it's going to happen cos of all the other fish. I'm really kicking myself for buying a 4ft tank if I had of known they were going to go so well I wouldn't have bothered with a tank that big.

[mitsui]

Oh and how should I go about feeding them just as normal or try to feed the others up the other end of the tank? I'm worried that if I put food into the tank it will turn into a feeding frenzy including eggs.

If I eventually manage a successful spawn will the fry look like mum & dad as they are both zebras or could there be a hidden gene?

[Mattzilla]

Just feed as normal. Perhaps feed a little at both ends of the tank for safe measure.

If u leave a lamp on over night near the tank the parents will have a better chance of protecting the eggs.

It's important to see after 24-48 hours that u have wrigglers. That is the only way to tell u have a fertile pair,

I'm not a genetics man but pretty sure u would get pretty much all silver zebras.

[mitsui]

Yeah I've been doing alot of reading and alot of ppl advise to leave the light on and that's exactly what I am planning on doing

When is the earliest I cam move them if they survive?

I would really like to keep as many as i cam

[Mattzilla]

i move them after 24 hours toa small tank and dose with mth blue. place an airstone close to, but not on, the eggs

if they are fertalised they will hatch in ther 24-48 hr period, and go fre swimming on day 7

note you will have to start brine shrimp off on day 5 and 6

if you leave them where they are you can syphon the wrigglers into a smaller tank any time. the longer you leave them in the main tank the more they will get eaten

[mitsui]

I might try to move them today I've got a little 1ft tank that I can put them into after some shuffling around lol it's going to be a bit tricky tho as they are on my home made filter, time to do some more reading about how to move them I think.

So far only 13 have gone white and they are all still there woo hoo!

[Mattzilla]

Move the part they are on if u can

Otherwise wait till they are wrigglers and siphon them off

[mitsui]

I can't just remove a piece of the filter I will have to remove the whole thing. Here is a pic of the filter the container is what they have layed on it's a bit smaller than a container that you put your spaghetti in it doesn't look
Pretty but it works lol

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0316.jpg

So you said they should turn into wigglers today, should I siphon them off today or wait until tomorrow?

[mitsui]

Oh also where is the best place to buy BBS eggs? I'm going to have to buy them online as the lfs here doesn't stock them.

Sorry for all the questions

[Mattzilla]

Ageofaquariums.com.au

I think that's it anyway

[mitsui]

Thanks I will have a look now

[mitsui]

Well a BIG thanks to Matt for his help

Here is a pic of the babies


http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/1c0652a3.jpg

[Mattzilla]

Well done!

What day are they at now?

Got your brine shrimp hatchery reday I hope?

I have a spawn at about 2 weeks old and another spawn at about 48 hrs old

Keep us updated

[mitsui]

Thanks Matt

I had to order online for the BS I'm hoping they will get here thurs thats the earliest I could get them


They layed the eggs on sat arvo so I'm not sure if they are 3 or 4??

[ILLUSN]

get some frozen BBS ASAP you want to feed them as soon as they free swim.

[mitsui]

Hi illusion

Friday is the quickest I can get them the local doesnt sell them tried the other lfs 2 hours away they have ran out so I'm out of options :(

I can only get adult frozen BS until next week prob thurs so I have to go with what I can get :(

[Exotic Aquatic]

maybe you could mush it in a pessle and mortar?

!! i wish you so much luck! how exciting!!!

[Exotic Aquatic]

now we just need you guys to breed those Altums!

[mitsui]

Trust me I have thought about putting a frozen block through the pocket rocket lol... I've done it before lol if the baby brine shrimp arent ready by the time they are free swimming thats what I'm going to have to do

[Exotic Aquatic]

well i wish you the best of luck!

[ILLUSN]

now we just need you guys to breed those Altums!

lol if it was that easy we'd all be keeping altums

[Exotic Aquatic]

:D I know!!!

Well if anyone can do it!

i hear its a TDS, huge water change after a stretch of no waterchanges and massive overkill bio filtration thing (got a spare massive sump and a million canisters?).

But who knows, there arent many altum breeders around sharing secrets lol

[Mattzilla]

Fingers crossed the eggs arrive early!

[mitsui]

Woo hoo they are swimming!! I looked in the tank this morning at 7am and about 3 were swimming, then I looked at 9am and about 50 were swimming, hopefully after I finish driving my boss around I will be able to go home for lunch and check on them again :) so excited!!

[ILLUSN]

great to hear mitsui


:D I know!!!

Well if anyone can do it!

i hear its a TDS, huge water change after a stretch of no waterchanges and massive overkill bio filtration thing (got a spare massive sump and a million canisters?).

But who knows, there arent many altum breeders around sharing secrets lol

i think i got the filtration under control

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21875

should be right to move the altums in next weekend they seem to have adjusted to their new pH (5.5) now i just need to rig up an auto RO feedin for the tank.

[Mattzilla]

Great news

Now that they are free swimming they need food asap

If you don't have any food yet this spawn might just be a learning spawn, and you could focus on the next one which wouldnt take long

A lack of food or not enough food early on leads to deformities in the fry like shortened or bent ventral fins.

I just had another look at my most recent spawn and it's a huge one! Gotta be 500+ easy. Only 3 eggs weren't fertilized!

Looks like my tanks will be full of angels again pretty soon

Pics to come when I get my pc back from getting fixed

[mitsui]

I haven't got my brine shrimP yet and I'm devastated :(

Can I try normal bs through the blender to make them small enough for them to eat? I know it's not ideal but it has to be better than letting them starve

[ILLUSN]

Try crushed colour bits instead I don't think you can blend brineshrimp

[Mattzilla]

Yeah crush some tetras bits or flake.... It has to be super fine powder

[Exotic Aquatic]

great to hear mitsui


:D I know!!!

Well if anyone can do it!

i hear its a TDS, huge water change after a stretch of no waterchanges and massive overkill bio filtration thing (got a spare massive sump and a million canisters?).

But who knows, there arent many altum breeders around sharing secrets lol

i think i got the filtration under control

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21875

should be right to move the altums in next weekend they seem to have adjusted to their new pH (5.5) now i just need to rig up an auto RO feedin for the tank.

OMG!!
Jothy, when are you in Melbourne next?
Can you build me one for my shop?
Is there a way of doing it without sulphur (just mechanical?)
PLEASE get back to me, im blown away!

[mitsui]

Try crushed colour bits instead I don't think you can blend brineshrimp

I do it for my guppies when they have babies

I got some fry flake today and my eggs have finally turned up!!! Going to make a brine shrimp hatchery tonight

[mitsui]

Oh craP I didn't realise that the brine shrimp needed to be heated!! How am I going to do this I don't have a spare heater??

[mitsui]

A quick pic of some of them

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/75985695.jpg

[ILLUSN]

you dont need to heat them they will hatch cold it just takes longer (36-48hrs ve 24-36)

[mitsui]

Agh ok thanks fir that

its pretty warm in my house I'm like a reptile I HATE THE COLD lol so hopefully they will hatch

I wish I was better prepared for this I didn't expect it to happen so quick

[Ghoti]

If you have the room,pop them on top of your tank...heat rises 8-)

Cheers,
Scott

[Ghoti]

If you have the room,pop them on top of your tank...heat rises 8-)

Cheers,
Scott

[mitsui]

Great idea scott

[Mattzilla]

I put a small lamp between the 2 hatcheries and that gives both light and heat.

Pm me your email address or phone number and I'll send you a pic from my phone. My pc is out of action at the moment

[mitsui]

They have layed again well currently are laying again

[mitsui]

hey every one!

Im not sure if you guys are really interested but I thought I would share that I now have two confirmed pairs!!! :):) I now know I have a golden female and a male plaitnum! althought they arent very good parents the female keeps fighting the male off while he is trying to fertalise the eggs lol Im guessing these guys wont be as good parents as my zebras they got it right from the start.

The golden female layed (dropped) eggs every where about two weeks ago, she just swam around and the eggs fell out at least this time she managed to lay them on a leaf so that in itself is an improvement...

I will have to say on closer inspection thier "bits" are really different hers are HUGE to his!! LOL!!

Now all I have to do is manage to keep the babies alive im not doing a great job of it *embarrased*

Well I thought i would just share I'm really excited!!

[Ghoti]

It's a learning process. I only saved one out if the last spawn buts it's infinitely more than I've saved previously. Next time I'll do better and I'm sure you will too!

Cheers,
Scott

[Red Tail Shark]

good to see your still having fun mitsu sorry havent posted for awhile always lots to do when you get your brine shrimp going try not to over feed them and what ever you have left put into a ice cube tray and freeze that way if you ever get caught out for whatever reason you will be covered if the babies are not fed twice a day for the first week unlees your lucky they will die if you miss a feed if i figure out the technology i will try and post some photos of my new koi marble veils best ive seen in the country for quite some time

ohh and if you want to give them a good place to hatch 25mm to 50mm pvc pipe with a piece of perspex silconed to the bottom is what i use this is good for the ability to remove the eggs and place them in another tank and you can put another pole straight back in but if your not removeing them they dont actually need anything to breed on when ready they willl breed on the side of the tank ive even had a pair lay eggs on the bottom of the tank lol


cheers RTS

[mitsui]

Hi all

Just thought I should update this thread for any one that is still interested.

after finally getting myself a decent filter, I have managed to raise these guys. The photos are them at 4 weeks :)

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/a6ae1436.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/97f143e7.jpg

Sorry they are not the best shots I could only find my phone.

[Mattzilla]

looking good

nice fat orange bellies

[mitsui]

Yep just had a big feed of BBS :) they are slowly looking more like angel fish

[mitsui]

Just another update for those who are interested.

6 weeks old :) Finallly starting to look like angels

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab158/tanksgalore/IMG_0916.jpg

[Exotic Aquatic]

Nice one! COngrats... i should update some of the shop discus babies, we are on 4 pairs with fry now!

[mitsui]

Thanks Adrian :)

yes please share the pics!