Discus with worms

[axl]

Hi,
my discus appear to have worms by the white poo coming out of them. Two weeks ago i treated them with prazi and on Tuesday i gave them there first dose of Big L. There are plenty of white string poo coming out of the fish so is this a good sign that they clearing there stomach isn't it???. They have been off there food lately and wont even touch beef heart. I will give them another dose of Big L in 7 days times but this good that the worms are coming out isn't it??? Hopefully they don't get re in effected with worms and is this why there not eating at the moment??

[boxters]

I sorry to say the white poo are not worms. They are caused by intestinal bacteria which is why your fish are not eating. If left untreated your fish will almost certainly die. It is very hard to cure and prazi and big l will not do anything. You need metronidazole powder from your vet. Do not get metro liquid as it's toxic to fish, bust be powder

[axl]

Are you serious???? Your saying all my fish have got Hex??? There eating flakes and frozen dried black worms. There just not eating the beef heart and all the fish are showing good color. These are your fish i purchased them of Danny in Melbourne. There only been in the tank 1 month and the tank is completely new. I can get metro from my vet here but is it really required????

[boxters]

What other fish are in the tank. Hex is very contagious

[axl]

There are rummy nose tetras, bristle nose catfish, cory, there all going well and were put in there on the same day as the discus. There were no fish in there to start with.

[boxters]

Many fish Cary hex parasites, which is why we never recommend mixing other fish with discus. In saying that hex is very common with discus. Personally I have never had it as I observe strict rules with my fish. Is this a brand new tank or did it have other fish in it before

[axl]

Its a brand new tank and everything was setup form scratch. I purchased the discus from Danny between Christmas and new year. I spent $500 on discus with him and now i have got hex.
Im going to have to treat the whole tank because all the discus have got the white poo. Is it possible to treat 7 discus with a small hospital tank????

[boxters]

How did you cycle the tank

[axl]

Dont worry it was done the right way. I used prawns to create the ammonia because the smell was unbelievable. Everything was cycled right, there would be ammonia in the tank and next morning there would be nitrite then nitrate etc. I know how to cycle a tank and this disease has come in the discus. Im pretty p***** off right now they haven't eaten well since i got them of Danny and this probably why because have got HEX

[boxters]

I can guarantee not. Honestly you are the first person to say the fish came with hex. We do not ship any fish with white poo or not eating. Realistically the bacterium could have been introduced by what you used to cycle your tank. Personally I would not use prawns. I would have used pure ammonia which is bacteria free. The rotting prawns would have caused much bacteria. If your water is not 100% your fishes immune system is lowered allowing the bacteria to take hold. I work very closely with a fish vet and we have done many studies on this. All that aside, you need to reduce the bacterial load in your tank. Contact your vet ask for metronidazole powder.

[axl]

I couldn't get pure ammonia as you wouldn't post it to me. There is no where to find pure ammonia and I talked to a lot of people who said prawns are fine to use. There is a fair chance that the hex come with Danny's fish as they didn't eat right from the start.
Is the vet able to give me 250mg per 10ltr of metro with my tank being 410ltr and i have to give it 3 treatments.

410ltr tank 250mg per 10ltr

41 x 0.250 = 10.2 tablets (is this correct)

30 tablets needed for 3 treatments. Correct????

[boxters]

There is no way it came from Danny like that. I will guarantee it's in your tank, but I'm not going to get into that. You vet will give it to you. If you don't take it from me that it's in your tank in 12 months time you can add a new fish and I guarantee it will get infected. We need to get it out of your tank.

[axl]

Ok how do i fix the problem then. You said i need to lower my bacteria levels is that right???? Whats the next steps to getting my fish tank right??? Im just very frustrated right now and i don't wont to loose my beautiful fish. I thought i did everything right

[boxters]

Everyone out there is an expert and they all blame the fish when things go wrong. You need metro powder and you need it quick. Treat as per vets recommendation, but do not use liquid metro. Put some powder in their food and treat whole tank. I imagine you don't have uv on this tank

[axl]

Yep there is a uv on the tank a 36w and do most vets keep the metro powder??? I have only ever got it in a tablet form. Is it best to mix up the tablets with there food if i cant get the powder?? What sort of food is best for this???

How do i treat the high bacteria problem which you think is causing this??

[boxters]

With your uv we need to be sure you have a sterilizer not a clarifier. If you have a clarifier it is not strong enough to kill bacteria. If it's a pond 1 it is definitely a clarifyer which will do nothing but algae. Beef heart is best crush that tabs to a fine powder. You will need to treat the water to

[axl]

What are other peoples thoughts?????

[BigDaddyAdo]

With your uv we need to be sure you have a sterilizer not a clarifier. If you have a clarifier it is not strong enough to kill bacteria. If it's a pond 1 it is definitely a clarifyer which will do nothing but algae. Beef heart is best crush that tabs to a fine powder. You will need to treat the water to

I'll bite I guess. How is a 36w sterilizer more powerful than a 36w clarifier?

I thought that they weren't eating beefheart.

[boxters]

back in the day when i started keeping fish i fell into the same trap. I was led to believe that uv was uv. Over the years i realised that is not the case. Uv light functions at different frequencies or wavelengths. i forget now the technical name. However the cheap units are only strong enough to kill algae. You then get more expensive units that do bacteria, and even more expensive high output units that do protozoa. There is a huge amount of material on this subject on the net. Its worth researching, because i tell you the local aquarium stores are misleading people in my opinion to think a clarifyer will do the same job as a steraliser. Infact i have a large range of steralisers and clarifiers at my place, you are all invited to come see the difference.

[axl]

That's right there not eating Beef heart. So i will treat them i a 70ltr tank all at once. i just wont to know how come they have all got Hex when my water is perfect. I reckon they have come in the fish

50% 3 x week

ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
ph 7.5 (it has always been at 7.5)

[boxters]

you are the only one that has it from our fish. Danny sends fish every week to other people all around australia, none of which have said anything about this problem. Now im trying to help you here and blaming the fish is not going to solve this. There are few things you needt to try understand

1)Discus are very sensitive fish
2)Your ph is much too high for our fish
3)all discus to a degree carry bacteria as do humans and other animals.
4) These bacteria only become an issue when the fish get sick and their immune system is compromised.
5)Accept when i say your water is not perfect. Please test the following parameters for me. GH, KH, temp
6)what do you use for water changes please explain in detail
7) Im trying to help you here, but you need to help yourself too by listening to the advice

[axl]

Don't worry i appreciate all the help i get on here and i love this site. I'm still only learning and want to keep learning. A stable ph is more important than what ph of the tank is at. I have had a lot of experienced people on here say that ph of 7.5 is perfectly ok for discus.
My kh is very soft around here it is 1 to 2 and my wc regime is the following. I know i should have aged water but this is the way i do it and have been doing for a lot years now.

50% wc min 3 x week
vac sand every time
Fill back up with adding 7.5ml of macs Aquarium Water Conditioner Water Ager SupaChlor

Makesure the temp is always on no lower than 28 most of the time its on 30 when i finish the wc.

[lpiasente]

What are other peoples thoughts?????

All fish do carry disease and it seems to get to them when they are stressed. So if they have gone from one place (o/s) to another place (marlons) then to another place (dannies) and then another place(yours) all with different water conditions being exposed to all sorts of things such as shipping temp drops other fish and so on then it is possible for this to happen. It isn't anyones fault. It's just a bugger. I hope you can get them through this.
Leanne

[boxters]

if other people on here want to keep their fish at a ph of 7.5 thats upto them. There fish will never thrive at such a high ph. I always say to people, you can take a polar bear ant put him in a rain forest, he will survive, but will he be happy. I would like you to trust me and lower your ph to 6.5 over a period of 3-4 days. If you do it straight away in one go the fish will get more stressed, so day 1 aim for 7.0, day 2 aim for 6.8 and day 3 aim for 6.5. I want that to be your new ph. I can asure you im not an amature discus keeper we have our own hatcherie overseas where we breed a lot of our own fish and supply other countries. Now just to be clear some discus that come from europe do like a higher ph because of their breeding, but malaysian discus are mostly bred in very acidic water, which keeps bacteria to a minimum

[axl]

Im going to do everything you say and get these fish better. First thing im going to do is take all the 7 fish and put them into a 70ltr hospital tank and treat them with metro. I got some metro this aro and are going to do the following:

2 heaters in 70ltr tank and temp is 34

3 x air stones going

Treat metro at 400mg per 40ltr of water every 8 hours for 4 days with 50% wc daily.

Then I'm going to slowly drop the temperature back over a week and give them no food for 3 days to make sure everything comes out.
How does that sound????

Next issue Ph whats the best way to drop your ph down to 6.5????

Thanks for all your help Marlon i really do appreciate it
Cheers Axl

[boxters]

Moving all those fish into a 70 litre tank is not a good idea. It will cause more stress and the problem will still be in your main tank. Treat them in your main tank.also don't play with the temperature keep it at 30 and leave it there. Drop the ph straight away as I mentioned. This will kill of a lot of bacteria and help the fish recover

[axl]

What rates of metro do i need to use??? The tank is 420ltr and i have only got 48 tablets of 200mg strength. Not sure what to do about the rates??? Also how do i drop the ph to 6.5 ???? I'm going to need a lot of tablets and what is the best way to go????

[boxters]

What strength are the tablets? Yes start to drop ph. Use seachem acid buffer

[boxters]

I also want to know your gh.

[axl]

the tablets are 200mg strength and im going to have to buy the seachem acid buffer next week as horsham doesn't even have a LFS

Im going to do the following on the main tank (410ltr) and leave the discus in there

2. Set the temperature to 30 degrees, no higher.


3. Add 250 mg Metro per 10 Litres of water. Crush tablets to fine powder and mix with water to form a paste before adding to the tank.

4. After 48 hours, do a 30% water change and repeat the dose. This should be done for a total of 3 treatments.

5. During treatment the tank lights should be left off. Metro is affected by light. And turn off your UV unit.

6. A variety of good quality, high protein food with added vitamins and minerals should be fed several times daily. Include prepared dry food, beef heart, brine shrimp, green vegetable matter and blood worms in the diet. Remove any uneaten food and keep the water very clean.

DO NOT USE LIQUID METRO. IT CONTAINS SUGAR WHICH WILL CAUSE A BACTERIAL BLOOM IN YOUR TANK AND SUFFOCATE YOUR FISH. ONLY USE METRO IN TABLET FORM.

How does that sound, I have got enough for 1 treatment and i will get more tablets from the vet tomoz. Wife is a vet nurse there so there cheapier

[boxters]

Use 1 per 40 liters no water changes. Crush tabs to a fine powder and desolve in warm water and pour into tank

[axl]

i will do 2 tablets per 40ltr will that be fine to cure this disease. You reckon no water changes??? When do i treat again with these rates???

[boxters]

Use 2 if you want to kill your fish

[axl]

i don't want to kill my fish but how would that rate kill my fish??? do i only need to treat the tank once???

[boxters]

I would treat them now, then in 3 days do a 50% water change and treat again to full strength

[axl]

No worries will treat with 1 tablet per 40ltr now and then 3 days later with a 50% wc.

With the 3rd dose you say to treat full strength you mean treating 250mg per 10ltr of water?? Is this right????

Thanks Axl

[boxters]

Never more than 1 per 40 litres and I said 2 nd not 3 rd treatment

[axl]

ok no worries and you reckon do 2 treaments only??? Keep the 2nd treatment the same rate as the first dose???

[lpiasente]

Drop the water level in your tank then you will use less metro.

[axl]

Treated the tank last night with 200mg per 40ltr and will re dose in 3 days time with a 50% wc first.

Will this rate work and cure my fish as i thought you needed 250mg per 10ltr??????

[BigDaddyAdo]

I wouldn't use an acid buffer to screw with the Ph. It will just end up bouncing around all over the place. Do you have access to rain water?

[axl]

No I don't sorry just town water and the ph of that is 7.5 hence why i haven't played around with the ph to much.

Would white vinegar work as i have heard it would as its a acid product. I might see what vinegar does in a jar to the ph.

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Axl,

I wouldn't be putting vinegar in my tanks even though it is a mild acid. I feel the other stuff in it is going to cause you some sort of problem.

If you were to get yourself an RO unit (I can give you a contact), you will be able to produce water to the standard to feel best fits your fish. They are available with a variation control so that you determine the hardness of the water.

My water has a hardness of over 300 according to my TDS (total dissolved solids) meter and a very high Ph. I use the RO unit to take it down to 10 (the maximum it will take out) and add RO right. Many people run the variable control at around 60 and get a good Ph value. If I leave it at 60 I still get a very high Ph reading.

The initial outlay for the unit I found to be quite reasonable and if the fish are happy it will save you heaps on medications, treatments and so on.

Regards,

Bob

[axl]

Hi Bob,
the town water is pretty good around here with the ph being 7.5 as i said earlier and the hardness of the water is very soft like 1 to 2 KH. Would an RO unit help with my water?? Where do you attach them and how do you use your Bob.

What is this RO unit like how does it read??? i dont know a lot about them and what benefits do they do????

http://www.thereefshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=36

[ILLUSN]

a few things here dont sit right with me.

pH discus NEED stability, stable pH is much more important then any given value although a lower pH is better (I like 5 for breeding) 7.5 will be fine.

metro. latest testing show spironucleus (the believed causitive organium for hex) is INsensitive to metro at doses below 10mg/L, at 25mg/L lethality rate is as close as possible to 100% using a low dose of metro is wasting your time.
similar info on simply discus and other sites worlwide will back up this statement.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17130

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/hexamitiasis.shtml

metro is most efective in food at 1-2g(metro)/100g(food) fed 2x daily for a week or so.

If you want to argue with me boxters go right ahead but sugesting a 200mg/40L is just plain neglegent.

RO units: ro units attach to your tap and create purified water, these use a series of membranes and cartriges they create excellent water for fish but have a rejection rate of up to 95% (ie 100L of tapwater give 5L or ro water and 95L of waste) not really enviromentally friendly or sustainable.

if your tap water is soft already maybe just a table spoon of discus or acid buffer/100L in your aging drum wil be enough to drop your ph to low 6's

UV's: massive difrence between sterilizers and claifiers, mostly due to the distance between the quartz sleve and the bulb and the distance between the quarts sleve and the housing. clarifiers are best suited to knocking out algae, they wont get enough radiation in contact with the water to take out protozoa. (I aim for 60000-90000uw/cm2 way higher then most sources would).

[axl]

Sent you a pm mate, but would you suggest i do with metro rates etc. Should i transfer all my fish into the 70ltr tank or treat the whole tank with metro. I need urgent help on this 1


Cheers Axl

[boxters]

well a very well know fish vet that i have worked with for a number of years has sugested a lower dose of metro and treat for a longer period. Metro seems to be very hard on fishes liver. Not arguing with you mate, just sugest a less agressive course of treatment. I have treated over the years at the lower dose which has always worked, but you need to treat for longer.

[boxters]

for those that dont actually keep discus ,here are the facts. discus are a large fish, thus have large organs. They therefore absorb drugs a lot quicker than smaller fish which is where issues with organ damage come in. as per Dr RE Wolke comparative pathologist of the university of Rhode Island the recomended dose for most fish to limit liver and kidney damage is 250mg per 80 litres, so even at 250mg per 40 litres which is what i suggested as the fish are not eating is still twice the reccomended dose for large fish. So tell me who is being negligent

[axl]

So your saying lower doses more often is better and is 2 treatments of 200mg per 40ltr enough to cure the fish???? I

[boxters]

3 days and then redose for 3 days is almost 1 week worth of treatment. In some cases hex is not treatAble. You need to accept this. Hex is almost certainly curable if you catch it early while the fish is still eating as the medication is more effective through feed. There are other ways to administer it once fish have stopped eating, but I will not recommend for beginners, so I'm not going to go into it. Fish should not be given any less concern than your kids or dog or cat. They are all living creatures and should be treated as such. With care and respect and they will give years of enjoyment. I'm not going to continue this post. I have told you my thoughts it's unto you now. Good luck

[axl]

sorry trying to under stand you mean so i dosed last night and i should re dose in 3 days time then another dose in 3 days??? Or your saying dose everyday for 3 days and then do another 3 days treatment I think is what you mean???

[lpiasente]

Oh Axl I feel your pain. I just went through the same thing a few weeks ago. There are soooo many different variations on metro treatment that it did my head in. You need to pick someone who you trust and go with their treatment and not take notice of everyone else. Just like raising kids I think ;).

[ILLUSN]

no worries boxters I'm a trained microbiologist/molecular biologist who worked with multi drug resistant forms of TB in people (now I've moved into genetics much happier enviroment).

All organiums will absorb all substances at the same rate, having larger organs just means they accumulate at higher levels. Metro degrades quickly its systemic effects and mimial at best, but i take the point that it will put stress on the liver.

Discus are tough and livers heal VERY quickly (fastest regenerating organ in the body), in the case of hex the reduction in immunity is the primary killer, biopsys I've done on my own discus with advanced uncurable Hex infections show massive numbers of opertunistic protozoa, anerobes, and flagellets.

IMO knock out the infection as fast as you can, if you loose weaker fish so be it. Better to loose some to a quick death rather then slowly to ongoing chronic infection that re infects new stock(cold i know but thats life I have no hesitation in culling fish i think i cant save).

lower dosages over longer periods of time leads to antibiotic resistance this is fact. The US is the worse country on earth for this problem (due to the non regulation of antibiotic use) in hospitals the drugs we use in oz as "last resort" for people are fed to chickens to promote growth. I'd take US advice on disease and infection management with a grain of salt.

Last thing I'll say on this topic.

Use the dose you need to kill the infection, you might not save all the fish but atleast when you restock you wont have lingering pathogens around to infect the new fish.

[boxters]

I can't argue that the pathogen needs to be eradicated, but I don't agree with sacrificing fish. It's like saying if you can't cure your child just put it down. I like the more subtle approach.