LH gill "stuck"

[Ghoti]

One of my original discus never seems to have grown. He doesn't hide, eats well including fom my hand, doesn't hide and isn't bullied-he will happily chase fish twice his size. Yet some time ago he lost his colour and is now in poor condition. .

Having recently lost a fish I have been watching him closely and he seems fine except for colour and weight loss. This evening while feeding him I noticed his left gill hardly moves in comparison to his right. Almost as if it's stuck.

Any ideas? I'm guessing QT and perhaps PP and or salt bath.
All other fish look fine although the pearl pigeon has been hiding only coming out for food.

EDIT: water parms are ph 6.5, temp 29c, gh 3 Kh 1, ammonia 0, NitRITE 0, nitRATE <10ppm, 20% WC once or twice weekly if can get time, 534 litre planted tank with 8 discus, 20 Cardinals, 7 Rasboras, 3 Rummy Nose, 3 BN, 4 SAE.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

I would treat with pp first if you have done it before.

[Ghoti]

Thanks for coming to my rescue again Kath. Did the treatment yesterday and his left gill was still stuck (i take it is what they mean by clamped). Still dark but on the positive side still feeding well.

How long before I should notice an improvement?

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

I would have expected him to use it by now. Try upping the wc and see if he comes good on his own you would have knocked the parasites he should be able to recover even if there are still some left.

Let me know, good he is eating.

[goodoo]

maybe Tri sulpha double dose would be good .

[goodoo]

Its not as harsh as pp. You could chuck that in with the waterchanges .ie double dose 24 hours later water change

[Ghoti]

Well it's a case of good news bad news.

Good news is he has started using both gills. Bad news is he has stopped eating. Last night he refused beefheart and tetra bits. Refused again this morning. Also tried frozen bloodworm with no response.

Don't like the way this is heading. He is still dark, browny/grey with black stress bars. But he's not hiding and is swimming normally so perhaps there is hope.

Cheers,
Scott

[karisdiscus]

Sorry to hear about your fish at least it is not hiding and its using both gills thats a good sign! Does it have normal feces or is it white?

[Ghoti]

Sorry to hear about your fish at least it is not hiding and its using both gills thats a good sign! Does it have normal feces or is it white?

ummmm.... doesn't seem to have passed any so I have added some epsom salts to hios tank water to try and move things along.

[Mr Wild]

Scott
What are the water params of the tank he is in now?

[Ghoti]

Got home last evening to find him floating on his side at the top of the tank battling for breath. Didn't resist when I lifted him from the tank. A quick brain spike and it was all over.

How effective is this hospital tank caper? The little experience I have shows 100% failure (3 out of 3 died). I can't help but wonder whether the constant water changes, lack of shelter and isolation leads to increased stress and ultimately their demise.

Oh and I had emptied the tank before reading your post Kath. All my tanks are filled from a 5000lt rainwater tank which consistently tests at ph 6.5, Ammonia 0, NitRITE 0, NitRATE <10ppm, kh 0, gh 2. The water is tannin stained due to the relentless onslaught of gum nuts on our roof. Thinking about it perhaps ammonia is an issue as the tank I have been using is only 20lt with a hob filter. On setup I throw in some noodles from my main tank trickle filter but perhaps this is insufficient in spite of daily 50% WC. He was a 6cm fish. Biggest one treated in here was 10cm.

I am picking up a 90lt tank tomorrow and have a sponge filter on order. Perhaps I should take photos of my remaining discus and post them to make sure I haven't missed anything else. So far in the big tank i have lost 6 discus in 5 months but other fish seem fine.
Cheers,
Scott

[goodoo]

that tank is to small. You need a minumum 40 cent front to back for them to feel secure 60cm better.

[Ghoti]

that tank is to small. You need a minumum 40 cent front to back for them to feel secure 60cm better.

I assume you mean the 20lt tank. The tank I am ccollecting on the weekrnd (90L) is 38cm front to back. I take it the 2cm difference while less than ideal is not a critical defect.

Cheers,
Scott

[goodoo]

I probably should of said the reason fish are miserable in that tank is its to small. I wish I was getting a 90 litre tomorrow is it 2x18x18 if so set it up sideways so there is more front to back depth.

[goodoo]

3 dead discus in that tank. See if you can extend it by 2cm. I would say that is your problem.

[Mr Wild]

Sorry to hear but discus need 40litres per fish to be happy and healthy that does not include plants and ornaments. Now I can hear the groan by some that will read this post but if you want happy healthy discus that you do not have to isolate and treat and you want them to grow to their potential you have to provide the right conditions.

Clean treated water ie not straight out of the tap = better to have storage and have it aerated and heated.

Check your TDS if your tank is not cleaned the TDS will slowly rise with waste, then if you do big changes with fresh water with very low or no trace elements and minerals this could send the fish into osmotic shock and yes that is a killer.

At 6.5 your water is acid and soft with no trace elements or minerals your PH may be dropping with the ammonia produced by the fish waste. can you check your PH from your main tank b4 the next wc? This will answer that question as well. You may be having swings in your PH causing stress to your fish.

where does the water flow b4 it reaches your rainwater tank? Over gal roof ? Zinc may be an issue so there is much we can go through to try and help. See if you can answer some of these questions and we might be able to come up with a solution for you.

Re the QT tank, I agree when they are bad enough to be separated things are pretty gloomy, best to keep them well in the first place.

[Ghoti]

Sorry to hear but discus need 40litres per fish to be happy and healthy that does not include plants and ornaments.

The main tank is 179x58x60 and contains a measured 537lt after DW, substrate etc. and now contains 8 discus varying in size from 5cm to 11cm. There is also 20 Cardinals, 5 rummynose tetras, 2 golden panchax, 10 harlequin rasboras, 4 juvenile SAE's, 4 juvenile clown loaches (only added yesterday) and 4 small BN around 4-5cm. Filtration is one OTTO 350 cannister (1200lph) and an overhead trickle filter fed by 2 800lph powerheads.


Clean treated water ie not straight out of the tap = better to have storage and have it aerated and heated. Water is from 5000lt rainwater tank. During winter I used to decant into 200lt storage drum to heat and add Seachem Replenish and Aquasonic carbonate hardness generator, though stopped treating the water after reading a number of forum threads on the subject suggesting such chemicals only served as a profit opportunity. As the water is 20C+ from the tank I have dispensed with decanting over summer.


At 6.5 your water is acid and soft with no trace elements or minerals your PH may be dropping with the ammonia produced by the fish waste. [\quote] This is why I used to boost the carbonate hardness to around 3 (approx 60ppm).

[quote=Mr Wild]Check your TDS if your tank is not cleaned the TDS will slowly rise with waste Is this General Hardness? If not, is there a TDS test kit or is there a range of tests to do?


where does the water flow b4 it reaches your rainwater tank? Over gal roof ? Sure does. The roof it flows over (and guttering) is approx 5 year old and is constantly laden with gum nuts from next door's trees.


I agree when they are bad enough to be separated things are pretty gloomy, best to keep them well in the first place. Agreed. I've not lost another fish in this tank other than four Kuhli loaches. One of the discus that died seemed to die of no apparent reason though at that stage I was running the tank at 30C. Must admit I'm wondering if I was too ambitious in swapping from Africans to Discus.


I probably should of said the reason fish are miserable in that tank is its to small. I wish I was getting a 90 litre tomorrow is it 2x18x18 if so set it up sideways so there is more front to back depth. The new QT tank is roughly 30x14x14. Not sure what you mean by setting up sideways... Even in a corner only one of the long sides are covered and I gather that unless the two long sides are covered then the depth is no different.

Will run some tests on the tank this evening and report back.

Cheers,
Scott

[Ghoti]

Water in main tank tested this evening as follows:

ph 6.5
Ammonia 0
NitRITE 0
NitRATE 20ppm
Phosphate 0.25ppm
Gh & KH - zero (Indicator colour achieved on forst drop)

I would expect ph to be unstable with such a low KH so will have to test at different times during the day. Tank is planted but low light and no CO2.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mr Wild]

The main tank is 179x58x60 and contains a measured 537lt after DW, substrate etc. and now contains 8 discus varying in size from 5cm to 11cm. There is also 20 Cardinals, 5 rummynose tetras, 2 golden panchax, 10 harlequin rasboras, 4 juvenile SAE's, 4 juvenile clown loaches (only added yesterday) and 4 small BN around 4-5cm. Filtration is one OTTO 350 cannister (1200lph) and an overhead trickle filter fed by 2 800lph powerheads.

Personally I think this is too crowded. Clown loaches while a fascinating fish do not do well with discus they like to swim fast and are often about when discus like to rest, you might find you have darting discus and when this happens they can really hurt themselves.
Clean treated water ie not straight out of the tap = better to have storage and have it aerated and heated. Water is from 5000lt rainwater tank. During winter I used to decant into 200lt storage drum to heat and add Seachem Replenish and Aquasonic carbonate hardness generator, though stopped treating the water after reading a number of forum threads on the subject suggesting such chemicals only served as a profit opportunity. As the water is 20C+ from the tank I have dispensed with decanting over summer.

You should heat and aerate your water for at least 12 hours prior to use, this degases the water as well as limiting the temp shock to the fish, I only allow a <1 degree difference doing a 30% wc.


At 6.5 your water is acid and soft with no trace elements or minerals your PH may be dropping with the ammonia produced by the fish waste. [\quote] This is why I used to boost the carbonate hardness to around 3 (approx 60ppm).

I boost mine with Aquasonics TropicalConditioner or Tropic Marin Discus this does not only add hardness. Every living thing needs minerals and trace elements, to allow our bodies to work so do fish over time with almost nil in your rain water your fish will lose condition and can get sick then you will find opportunistics bugs that normally the fish could overcome themselves can be deadly.

[quote=Mr Wild]Check your TDS if your tank is not cleaned the TDS will slowly rise with waste Is this General Hardness? If not, is there a TDS test kit or is there a range of tests to do?

GH ans KH combined - I use a TDS meter and adjust to 100ppm.


where does the water flow b4 it reaches your rainwater tank? Over gal roof ? Sure does. The roof it flows over (and guttering) is approx 5 year old and is constantly laden with gum nuts from next door's trees.

OK well this could be a problem, I would suggest getting onto the Dept of Ag and asking about the gumnuts they should have aquaculture information to help - are they comming off eucalypts? I have started using Supa Chlor as it also sheilds the fish from zinc and I had thought for sometime that may have been an issue with my fish - I can only tell you that the fish have never looked better.


I agree when they are bad enough to be separated things are pretty gloomy, best to keep them well in the first place. Agreed. I've not lost another fish in this tank other than four Kuhli loaches. One of the discus that died seemed to die of no apparent reason though at that stage I was running the tank at 30C. Must admit I'm wondering if I was too ambitious in swapping from Africans to Discus.

They are different to care for and I found I had to learn more about water and care than I had previously required.