Questions about choosing discus (pics)

[Bass]

Hi guys, fantastic forum you got here =)
First of all, im new to aquariums.. always been a dream but never got to it until now.

Right now i have a Juwel Vision 260L, but the pump sounded like mad, so i ended up getting an external filter Eheim Pro3e 2074.
This is how it looks

http://bassel.se/diskus/260L_4.jpg

I started the tank 3 weeks ago, but had to do a complete water change 2 weeks ago, so its not that old.
Right now i have 30 small cardinal tetras, and yesterday i added 8 small Sterbai into the tank.

The 10th november (11 days) i got the opportunity to get some discus.
Im thinking 4 Red Turquoise (8cm), and 2 Leopard (9cm).
These are the fishes:
http://www.bassel.se/diskus/K1.jpg
http://www.bassel.se/diskus/K2.jpg

Ok, my questions:
I know its a bit early for the tank to let them in when its only 11 more days for the bacterias to get strong. But i was hoping that i can be extra carefull when feeding the first week or so.

1. Do the stripes go away more in time? The black ones, (stressbars?)
2. Im not sure how old these are, but at what size/age do you see if you got a pair that is going to try and mate?
3. Can a leopard and Red Turquoise make pair and mate?

Any other tips for a soon to become Discus owner =)

Regards Bass

[Mr Wild]

Ok I will be the baddy here. The truth is, it is WAY too early to be adding discus to that tank. Of course if you have money to burn go right ahead and when they die I can yep thought so.

The truth is discus like a mature tank and some knowledge of their requirements would be a good place to start. The tank looks go as far as furniture goes but there would hardly be any good numbers of beneficial bacteria built up so far.

With 240 litres you are right in thinking 6 discus but you have taken up water with furniture in the tank and other fish. An experienced hobbyist could manage it but honestly, if you have to ask if the stripes will go away you are not experienced enough for discus yet.

Do lots of reading ask heaps of questions and read this site, WAIT until you AND the tank are ready.

Sorry but you did ask!

[Bass]

Hi and thanx for the reply!
Yeah im a total noob and im reading hours a day to try and learn lol.
Still dont know if the stripes go off or not.. ;)

About bacteria, i thought that a month would be enough for the bacteria to have matured. I been using Sera Bio Nitrivec since the start to jumpstart the bacteria culture. Got some water from the tank that the cardinals where in before they came to my aquarium.


With 240 litres you are right in thinking 6 discus but you have taken up water with furniture in the tank and other fish. An experienced hobbyist could manage it but honestly, if you have to ask if the stripes will go away you are not experienced enough for discus yet.

Do you mean that 6 discus is to much in 260L cos of the decoration and kardinals + Sterbais?

Im planning to do WC a few times a week, get leftovers from feeding out of the tank every time i feed.
That was the plan ^^

Im thanxfull for you replies mr Wild.
My main problem is that i got this shot at getting discus at prices i can afford from a private breeder that is taking the train up to where i live thats in 11 days, then the tank has been running for a month.

[Hollowman]

OK, I am also going to be a baddy and add to what has been said....... but, please take the advice in the way it is meant, we want you to make the right decisions before killing all your fish. We see it happen time after time when noobs have a whim to keep these majestic fish.
I will say this right off the bat....... BE PATIENT

Ok, so you are a total noob, what do you know about the nitrogen cycle? what do you know about cycling your filter? Sounds like nothing yet, BUT you NEED to know this. REMEMBER this : water does not hold any good bacteria! I hear this so many times, it drives me nuts!! Your filter is the thing that contains your helpful bacteria. Keeping old water does nothing, nowt, nada, zippo. We change water to get rid of waste and DOC's (dissolved Organic Compounds) nothing else.

More pointers:

You need a good set of test kits.

You should be testing for Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and Ph
Have you read about water parameters? What are your current water conditions?? You should know this before you go any further. You should be testing every day and recording your readings so that you know when the tank is mature....... you cannot rush this bit.
To cycle a filter will take between 6 to 10 weeks depending on how you do it. It is never good to mature a tank with live fish as they will just suffer and die early.
What has been said about your water volume is also correct, you have to allow that you have reduced the total capacity of the tank due to the things you have in there, sand, ornaments etc. Discus need at least 40 to 50 litres per adult fish, so consider this.

The fish you have chosen look fine, but ...... you need to read about how to keep them happy. Being small, they will need lots of good food and a variety of food, lots of information here on that. They will also need regular large water changes with aged heated water, how do you intend to do this? are you prepared?

As for the stripes on the fish, they will come and go depending on several factors. They will (generally) get less as they get older, but they can show all the time if they are not happy.

Reading material: I recommend both of Andrew Soh's books
Discus, The Naked Truth and
Discus, Problems and Solutions
What Andrew doesn't know isn't worth knowing, many people will back me up on that.
I am sure I will think of more things to add to this thread as you ask more questions.
Good luck.............. but be patient OK!!

[Bass]

Hi and thanx!
Ok ill try to answer ;)



Ok, so you are a total noob, what do you know about the nitrogen cycle? what do you know about cycling your filter? Sounds like nothing yet, BUT you NEED to know this. REMEMBER this : water does not hold any good bacteria! I hear this so many times, it drives me nuts!! Your filter is the thing that contains your helpful bacteria. Keeping old water does nothing, nowt, nada, zippo. We change water to get rid of waste and DOC's (dissolved Organic Compounds) nothing else.

I started with empty tank and added a little fishfood (dry) in the tank to start the cycle, got this advice from someone ;)
Then i also added Sera Nitrovec on advice as well to help out with getting the filter bacterial(ized) :)
I know that overfeeding will make leftover food go bad, and eventually turn the water bad with nitrite.
So im trying to feed them as little as possible but still enough for them to be happy.


More pointers:

You need a good set of test kits.

You should be testing for Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte and Ph
Have you read about water parameters? What are your current water conditions?? You should know this before you go any further. You should be testing every day and recording your readings so that you know when the tank is mature....... you cannot rush this bit.

Ive been testing my water everyday since i filled it with water.
This is todays reading:

NO3 mg/l = 10
NO2 mg/l = 0
GH = >6d
KH = 3d
PH = 7.0




To cycle a filter will take between 6 to 10 weeks depending on how you do it. It is never good to mature a tank with live fish as they will just suffer and die early.
What has been said about your water volume is also correct, you have to allow that you have reduced the total capacity of the tank due to the things you have in there, sand, ornaments etc. Discus need at least 40 to 50 litres per adult fish, so consider this.

This part is what i feel most lost with. Need to read up more about it.


The fish you have chosen look fine, but ...... you need to read about how to keep them happy. Being small, they will need lots of good food and a variety of food, lots of information here on that. They will also need regular large water changes with aged heated water, how do you intend to do this? are you prepared?

I have been asking around alot and been reading alot about food, and also my choice of other fishes has been picked with discus in mind.
Im going to alternate with a few things. D50+, Marinemix, red/white worms, some of Stendkers own food.

The tetras came into the tank after 2 weeks and and the Sterbai after 3 weeks old filter.

About waterchange. Been reading and hearing alot of different stuff about it. My waters Ph is 7.0 so in that matter its ok.
The fishes im looking to buy have been breeded on tapwater, so they are used to it i guess. Many says that they are doing just fine with getting close enough heated straight from the tap to the tank.
I got a big bucket that i can fill with water 24h before change if i want too.
Havent decided 100% but ive been thinking about this tho..



As for the stripes on the fish, they will come and go depending on several factors. They will (generally) get less as they get older, but they can show all the time if they are not happy.
Thanx, i fell in love with Red Turks that i saw once. I really want those, but the one i saw long time ago didnt have those stripes. Thats why i asked.

Thanx!

[Hollowman]

Alarm bells are ringing already. When I cycled my system, I was feeding pure ammonia each day to keep it at 4PPM, this was reduced to zero in less than 24 hours. What is your ammonia reeading?? this is most important. I see you are showing no NitrIte, I dont think you have enough going on in your tank to give you a reading. You know many people throw in a few dead prawns in the tank to rot and produce ammonia to start to feed the nitrifying bacteria. It is all wrong so far, you are putting the cart before the horse already.

Test for ammonia now, you are not doing enough to cycle your tank!!!

The fishes im looking to buy have been breeded on tapwater, so they are used to it i guess. Many says that they are doing just fine with getting close enough heated straight from the tap to the tank.
I got a big bucket that i can fill with water 24h before change if i want too.
Not good to take your water straight from a heating system as copper can be present and affect/kill the fish. Also what about de-chlorination? do you know about that?

You cannot afford to guess at anything when setting up, it will cost you lots of $$ if you get it wrong. Many people keep fish, many people have to keep buying more fish after they kill them because of poor skills. Try to avoid making mistakes, DON'T RUSH ANYTHING

[Bass]

Hi!


Alarm bells are ringing already. When I cycled my system, I was feeding pure ammonia each day to keep it at 4PPM, this was reduced to zero in less than 24 hours. What is your ammonia reeading?? this is most important. I see you are showing no NitrIte, I dont think you have enough going on in your tank to give you a reading. You know many people throw in a few dead prawns in the tank to rot and produce ammonia to start to feed the nitrifying bacteria. It is all wrong so far, you are putting the cart before the horse already.

Test for ammonia now, you are not doing enough to cycle your tank!!!

Hi, yeah.. i havent tested for ammonia. Gonna get some tests tomorrow and see. Would it be a good idea to throw in a dead prawn at this point?



You cannot afford to guess at anything when setting up, it will cost you lots of $$ if you get it wrong. Many people keep fish, many people have to keep buying more fish after they kill them because of poor skills. Try to avoid making mistakes, DON'T RUSH ANYTHING

Alright, makes sense.
Lets see if i got this right.
First see if im producing ammoniac, this is a natural step to feed the bacterials? Ammoniac will turn into nitrate and thats when i need the bacterials.. so they work against the ammoniac before it turns into nitrate?

EDIT: de-chlorination
Yeah ive been using it! I used Sera Aqutan
_________________

[Merrilyn]

Hiya Bass and welcome to the forum. I'm pleased to see you are asking all the right questions before you get your discus.

Okay, let's see if I can make this easier for you. The nitrogen cycle is a mystery to many people (and some fish shops too) so I'll explain it in simple terms.

Fish produce ammonia, simply from living and breathing. Their waste produces ammonia and even any left over food will decay and produce ammonia. Now, ammonia is deadly to fish. Make no mistake, they can't tolerate even a little bit for any length of time

Fortunately, there is a bacteria that will eat ammonia and turn it into nitRITE. These bacteria live in your filter media, and also some on the walls of your tank, and in the substrate. Very few are in the water. They prefer a solid surface. We need to look after these little guys. They do a very important job in the aquarium. NitRITE is also toxic to fish. Not quite as bad as ammonia, but still pretty bad.

Fortunately nature provides us with another type of bacteria (names are unimportant at this stage) that will eat NitRITE and convert it to nitRATE (ain't nature wonderful). Notice the difference in the spelling of the two. Lots of folk get them confused.

Now fortunately nitRATE is harmless to fish in low quantities and easy enough to remove with water changes.

That little colony of two types of bacteria living in your filter take time to grow. (Think of an ant's nest). It starts out small, very small, and will double in size every two or three days. But we need millions of the little guys, so that's going to take 6 to 10 weeks. The size of the colony will be limited by the amount of available food (ammonia) that's why we like to use powdered ammonia, or a nice rotting prawn, or even a half a cup full of fish food. We need lots of ammonia to feed our little colony, and rotting food or prawns will provide lots of ammonia, but even with lots of food, things can't be rushed. Remember that bit about only doubling in size every two or three days. Well, it's going to take a set amount of time.

Now, you've jumped the gun a bit by putting fish in your tank before the cycle is complete, because your colony can't eat all the ammonia your fish produce, so it's going to stay in the water and eventually poison your fish. You need to keep the levels low by doing water changes, but that also removes the ammonia your filter needs to feed on to grow, so it's a two edged sword. It's much easier to do this without any fish in the tank. That way you can fill up the tank with ammonia, and build a strong bacteria colony, so that when you do finally add fish, all the ammonia will be converted to harmless nitRATE and your fish will thrive.

There are a few things that you can do to be ready for your discus arriving in a week or so.

Do you have any friends living near you that have nice healthy fish tanks? At a push you can ask at the shop where you bought your fish, but it's better from a friend. What you need is some used (nice and dirty) filter media from your friends filter. That will give your bacteria colony a kick start by adding some already mature bacteria and the cycle time will be very much shorter.

Hope I've explained that well enough. Think of the ant colony again. You've only got around a hundred ants now, you need millions. Filter media from your friends tank will give you, say, an extra ten thousand ants. Every time they double, you closer to getting the million you need.

We test the cycle in our tanks by using test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The cycle goes like this. First you will test for ammonia. It could spike as high as 4 or even 5 or 6 at it's peak. Even a tiny amount of ammonia will kill your fish. Next, you will see the ammonia level begin to drop and the nitRITE level will start to rise as those first bacteria eat the ammonia and turn it into nitrite. Nitrite will kill your fish too, although a bit more slowly than ammonia. Nitrite levels begin to drop as the bacteria begin to convert it to nitrate.

Near the end of the cycle, the ammonia level will be zero, and the nitrite level will be very high but soon the nitrite will drop and nitRATE levels will begin to rise.

What we need is zero ammonia, zero nitRITE and a good level of nitRATE like 20 or 30 or even 60.

That means the cycle is complete, so we do a water change to bring the nitrate levels down to around 10 and then it's time to add fish.

Get some used filter media into your filter as soon as possible, and start testing your water. If your post your results here daily, we'll let you know how you're cycle's going.

[Bass]

Hi Merrilyn and damn... thanx!!!
That was the best explanation ive read, and its really crystal clear what i need to do and why. Im really thankfull.
I guess my best bet is to ask the store to get used media.. but then again, they are the ones that told me when it was time to get the tetras, and when it was safe to add the Sterbais..

They also adviced me to empty the bag of water the fish came with into my tank to transfer the bacterias.. but if they just live in the filter and substrate.. then that was useless, and also risky doh.

It seems like that here in Sweden, its not that many that do fishless cycling. What i read here is that you have to get the fish first to start the process.

Anyways, thanx! Im going to try and find that filter and also some ammonium tests to see where i am in the process.

Regards Bass

[Hollowman]

Great explaination Merrilyn, even worth making that one post a sticky.


Now Bass, read carefully ....... Merrilyn said the spelling is important. We test for AMMONIA .... not ammonium ok

As you have already said, your local fish shop has given you bad advice already, please don't rely on them as it seems they dont have a clue. Ask here and save yourself doing the erong thing again. :wink:

H

[lpiasente]

yep agreed this would make a great sticky

[Bass]

Ammonium, ammonia, its a languish thingie =)
Im swede lol

Todays reading:
NO3 mg/l = 25 (went up)
NO2 mg/l = 1 (went up)
GH = >6d
KH = 3d
PH = 7.0

Have to wait until tomorrow for the ammona test

[Hollowman]

Ammonium, ammonia, its a languish thingie =)
Im swede lol

Sorry Bass, there is a difference, it is not a language thing. Ammonium is different to Ammonia

Ammonia is NH3 and can be lethal to your fish in small amounts in water around a Ph value of 7.

Ammoniun is NH4+ which is the form Ammonia takes when it takes an extra positve ion, when the PH value is around 6. Ammoinum is not as toxic to the fish, but with a good filter system any free ammonia should be nitrified by your good bacteria.

[Bass]

Thanx Hollowman

Now, sorry for repeating these questions, still wounder about this =P

2. Im not sure how old these are, but at what size or age do you see if you got a pair that is going to try and mate?
3. Can a leopard and Red Turquoise make pair and mate?

[Hollowman]

Thanx Hollowman


2. Im not sure how old these are, but at what size or age do you see if you got a pair that is going to try and mate?
3. Can a leopard and Red Turquoise make pair and mate?[/

2, Ok, the fish you have been looking at look like they are probably 5 - 6 months old. You will see some activity as they get towards 8 - 9 months, but this can vary. At that age they are now termed as sub- adults. You might see fish jockeying for postion in the tank, a bit of bullying. You may even see a pair of fish start to hang around together. From my experience if you see a pair forming, keep them apart. If a female gets tempted into laying eggs when too young, she will put all her energy into producing eggs at the cost of growing to a good size. I have also noticed that males, even though paired up, mature several months later than females. But there are no rules, sometimes you will get a pair of fish that turn out ot be two females. For now, you don't need to know too much about getting a pair, just concentrate for now on keeping the fish healthy and well fed and watered.

3, Yes Leopards and RT's can make a pair, but I am an advocate of breeding same to same to get an even better fish. There are too many mongrels out there already, no need to inflict more onto the unsuspecting public.

[Bass]

Hi and thanx Hollowman!

About ammonium. I tested today, read 0
Hmm.. expected some at least?

[Bass]

Forgot to add.
I went to the store, and they helped me with sqeezing the filtermedia from a healthy tank to a plastic bag. So i got a few litre of water from that taks filter that i poured into my Eheims media.
Might help a little =)

[Merrilyn]

That will help a lot Bass. :P

[Bass]

Ammonia still at zero
All values are still great? was expecting something to happen, im sure it will come.

Starting to get algies, the glas is getting dirty on the inside, hard to remove.
Also see some really green growing on the roots and stones.

http://bassel.se/diskus/alger.jpg

[Bass]

Hi guys
Ok this is where i am right now
Readings are:

Ammonia 0
Nitrate 10mg/l
Nitrite 0
KH 3d
PH 7

Its alot happening, everyone looks great seams happy. Plants started growing like mad as well.

This is whats in the tank now:

30 cardinal tetras
8 Sterbai
2 Ancistrus (4cm)
2 Butterfly cichlid
1 L-200 Catfish (5cm)

Dunno, should i expect a nitritespike to come or do my tank seem to be cycled already?

[Bass]

Hi guys
Just thought id share now that they are here!!

http://bassel.se/diskus/diskus_nex.jpg

And a video =)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_IlE6Jfnos

All water values are the same. Nothing has changed yet :D

[olliesshop]

Beautiful !!! :D

[Merrilyn]

Hi Bass, good looking fish you've got there !

It's important to test for ammonia spikes daily. Your tank is cycled yes, but your colony is still small. You've got both of those good types of bacteria in your filter, but not many of them yet, so it's important to keep testing so those little guys don't get overwhelmed by the amount of ammonia they have to process now that you've added several big fish.

More fish means more ammonia, so if your bacteria colony is getting behind and leaving ammonia in the water, you'll need to give them a hand and remove it yourself by doing waterchanges.

Feed lightly, remove any uneaten food after 30 minutes, and keep testing your water.

Good luck :P

[Bass]

Hi Merrilyn
Thanx! Yeah ive been testing every day and ill keep doing that. Im thinking of starting making regular WC now. To early?

Yesterday i had another suprice in my fishtank :D

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7CINrsf4OQ


http://www.zoopet.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=39229&d=1289945970

[olliesshop]

I just read this thread ... boy there is still a lot to learn !!! I think I still have a few months of just reading / learning before I jump into it slowly. As you've all said ... be patient. :D

My first step is to change my RO filter in my water tap and see what quality I have to start with. I'm also thinking about getting my smaller 20 gal tank going again to test my "water skills". Then it sounds like I could use that bacteria to get jump start the bigger tank when I get it. Boy do I feel like a newbie !!!