darting and twirling discus that scratches

[giorid]

Hi,
Wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms with their fish at some stage, can you help please.
Fish tends to rush from one side of tank to the other than goes round and round as if its trying to shake something off and it then settles in one of the conners of the tank, I had one that died after a few days of this and I don't want to lose anymore, please help. Just finnished worming and currently using white spot cure but the fish, one only, the others are ok, seems to still be doing this darting and twirling as if something is irritating it. Any advice will be greatly apppreciated, thanks. Ps all water parameters are normal for discus, and the other discus are feeding normally.

[bruceau]

normally when a fish gets to this stage its really near death...

id start with seperating it from the others, to prevent it spreading id also make up some fresh water in the new tank for him and add 1 tablespoon of epson salts per 10/11gallens of water... roughtly about about 37 lt...

id also give him a salt bath to get things rolling ....

10lt bucket of water, add about 10 tablespoons of salt, leave him in there fora while dont leave the fish unattneded give him 5/10min if the fish starts to float pull him right out put him into the other tank and make sure water is crossing over his gills...

epson salts imho is alot lower impact then treating the fish with copper, but epson salts may not even get you out of trouble here

if the epsons salt in the other tank is working it will be quite quick you should seen a turn around with in a few hours and with in 24/48 the problem should be gone 100% if not the treatment isnt going to work at all...

is the fish dark? is it eating well? does it have a swallon belly?

epson salts will be great for infections and also blockages in the fish, it will help it pass its bowls and get rid of basic infections...

you may also want to post your water readings rather then just saying 'they are fine'

what is the ph ni/na/am?

whats the GH and KH? and temp of the water?

what have you been feeding them how much?

i should also say if you said you are treaing them, is it possible you have Od'd a little and one fish is more sepsectable to it? a water change might be a good idea to treat for white spot you dont need to use copper you can just rise the temp of the tank to 31+ and it will kill it off over 14 or so days. with low impact to the fish.


PS: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=680080#post680080

[goodoo]

to many meds ?

[giorid]

Hi All,
Thanks for your replies. After I did the worming I did a water change of about 300L, tank is 432L, I used aged water from the storage tank that is used only for this purpose, water was of the same ph and temperature ie. 6.5 and 30'c. Storage water is filtered through a filter that contains water softening pillows, used for 2 days than removed and replaced with ammonia and carbon chips I let the change water filter through this media for about 2 to 3 days before adding to tank as topup water or water change. I also add aquarium salt to the change water at the recommended dose ie, 20gm per 40L, and prime. The white spot medication contains no copper, It only has formaldehyde and malachite green, I only added it after doing the water change because of the problem with this fish chasing its tail, the fish seems to be feeding normally but it seems to have attacks of this behaviour and then it calms down, I'm feeding them a variety of food, eg, sera discus granules, frozen blood worms, frozen brine shrimp with spirulina, and home made beefheart at regular intervals throughout the day, all food is consummed completely. The fish looks very healthy, no swollen belly, its colour is normal and it swims normally, sometimes it tends to stay near the surface in one of the corners. There is no ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, the other discus seem to be behaving normally, please help I don't want to lose another fish to this. I'm wondering if it could be due to genetics or or psycological, due to stress of some sort which I haven't identified.

[goodoo]

lots of water changes and she will be right.

[Merrilyn]

Hi giorid. Why are using white spot cure? Did you see some white spots on the fins or body of your fish?

I think part of your problem is using white spot cure straigh after using a worming medication. As you know, most meds are low dose of poison, and you need to give your fish plenty of time to recover from one session before adding another medication to the water.

Okay, now I think you should do a rather large water change, add some carbon to your filter to remove any remaining medication. Whitespot is very rarely seen in discus tanks because of the high temperatures we run them.

You said your water is fine for discus, but what exactly are your readings. pH, nitrite and nitrate, temperature and normal water change routine.

Clean water is our first line of defense against just about all discus ailments..

Next I want you to empty out your water storage drums, give them a good scrub and refill them using just tapwater and prime - nothing else, no aquarium salts, no ammo chips, no water softening pillows - nothing. Just water and prime. Age for 24 hours, no longer, then perform your water changes. Sometimes we work a bit too hard at trying to get things perfect, where the simple route is the correct one.

[giorid]

Hi Merrilyn,
Thanks for your advice, I already cleaned the storage tank before doing the water change, I always do before aging the water, I wash the inside with hot water and let it dry out in the sun, I will follow your advice about just using prime but I think I did that before and it didn't help because I lost the first discus with the same symptoms, I just have this gut feeling that the fish looks irritated by something biting him and he's trying to scrape it off, if it is ick, by the way I did see some white spots on the fins of another discus who suffered with the same symptoms, the white spot med should help shouldn't it. If the water was the problem the other discus would have suffered too, but they look fine. Also I usually use chemi-pure but took it out of the filter because of the meds. tomorrow I'm due to add the second dose of the white spot med, so I'll do the water change and put the chemi-pure back in the filter and watch, if the fish still looks stressed or gets worse I'll add the second dose of the med and take the chemi-pure out and hope that it will help the fish recover. By the way I check the water values daily to make sure they are all within the normal range for the discus and the tank is clean and the filter being a minireef filter has no problems handling the load plus I add cycle once weekly at the recommended dose to keep the filter operating at its maximum capacity especially now that I've used the meds, thanks everyone.

[Merrilyn]

You're doing everything right giorid. I've seen this whirling disease before, although usually with my wilds, and it's a bugger to cure.

Sometimes it's responded to a gill and body fluke treatment, and other times it's responded to a salt dip. Don't think I'd do the second white spot treatment. Try a salt dip instead. There's a sticky here with recommendations from fish guru Andrew Soh about doing a salt dip.

Found it - in part, it says:


The safest and the best method is to use long bath with salt. The dose is 2 ppt(200gm per 100liter of water) for one month and by the next month, every one of the oodinium will be gone forever....believe me.
Whenever you change water, add back the same dose or concentration.

HTH

[giorid]

Hi merrilyn,
Thanks for taking the time to help me I really appreciate it, I will up the dose of salt in the change water to the dose that Andrew soh mentioned, it seems like a very high dose and for such a long time too, do you know if I can use this dose for more than one month if I need to in case the oodinium becames resistant to the salt, since the white spot cure seems ineffective, I hope it dosen't kill all of the fish in the tank since I might as well treat them all in case they're infected as well but show no symptoms, anyway thanks alot, I feel so sorry for them, I really don't like to see them dying so easily when they look so healthy, its such a waste.

[Merrilyn]

Andrew is talking about a treatment for Velvet Disease, but it also works for body flukes and white spot. At that dose it will kill your plants, so treatment is best done in a bare hospital tank

Right now I'd do nothing but the water changes and play a wait and see game.

Let's see if lots of clean water can help the fish to help themselves. Give it a week and see what happens.

Oh, meant to ask, do you have a UV on that tank?

I'm a big fan of UV and have it on every one of my tanks.

[giorid]

Yeh I do use a uv sterilizer that's connected to the backup cannister filter but I think the light needs to be changed, I was supposed to change it every 6 months or so I might do that tomorrow, by the way I did read what Andrew Soh wrote about the frozen foods ie, fbw and fbs and I must admit that I agree with him 100% I think I'm going to stop feeding these foods even though the fish go crazy for them, they're not worth the trouble especially with discus and I do seem to have problems when I feed these foods on are regular basis, from now on it will only be flakes and granules and home made beefheart. Oh sorry to say but the sick fish has just died, it took a couples of breaths at the surface then sunk to the bottom and froze that was it, what a loss I can't believe it, not another one, it looked so healthy, I definately think the frozen foods that I bought are doing the damage and I thought that this reknown brand was supposed to be the safest and best, I won't be buying it again that's for sure.

[Hollowman]

I have read through most of the posts in this thread, and raised my eyebrows a few times.
Some people seem to think that discus are some mystery fish and put them on a pedastall. They treat them with such delicasy that the slightest slip from a degree in Ph or drop of temperature is going to kill the lot. Also the way that some people go way over thetop in water preparation, adding this, adding that, because they have read it somewhere or a store has recommended a product, or they have read other peoples way out over the top ways of doing it.
It is sad to know that you have lost fish, but imo, you have done too much to try and sort out what was probably a case of flukes. Another thought for me is a water issue.
As Merrilyn has already said to you, keep it simple. If you fuss about too much you will create a problem that the fish do not have. If you sit in front of the tank and analyse every twitch or stool that the fish makes, you will talk yourself into using a treatment that it does not need.
Never throw meds in the tank on a whimm, it makes no sence. You keep on mentioning white spot, and treating it, but unless you have a very rare case of Ich surviving the high temp you say you have your fish at, then the diagnosis is wrong. It is easy to find this info out.

Andrew's books are a great reference for all discus information. His second book 'Problems and Solution' details lots of issues that he has experienced and resolved. I would follow his advice, but remember you cannot help all fish, sometimes the damage is done due over exuberant fussing and prior adding of meds.

The first treatment any fish should ever get is good clean water, nothing more. This is often all that is needed to clear up a problem. My water prep is different to yours, I dont fuss with additives or salt or remedies. I just airate, and heat for 24 hours and use. Simple is always best.

Sorry if I sound condesending and I am sorry you lost your fish. But keep it all simple and let the fish live.

H :)

[Merrilyn]

So sorry to hear you lost your second fish.

Yes, it is possible to get a bad batch of frozen food. Your local fish shop may be very good at storing frozen foods, but it's possible they were badly handled before they got to the LFS and partly defrosted and refrozen at some stage.

I've given away frozen foods altogether and these days only feed a beef heart mixture,flake and granules, and freeze dried bloodworms from Mal, a sponsor on this forum.

[Hollowman]

Same as me Merrilyn, I highly recommend Mal's worms. :)

[bruceau]

sad to hear, always sux to loose a fish all you can do is try to learn by it.