Cycling

[Love Discus]

Hi I am new, i have been a follower of the site fore quite some time, but I have no time for that discussion now.

I have a new 72 gallon bowfront aquarium, and I am having problems! I initially used about 70 pounds of black sand from an existing and well established 55 gallon aquarium, I also used the filter cartridges from the established 55. The tank was doing well and all, nitrites and nitrate forming within 3 days. So I introdused my 5 discus, and added the cycled water from the 10 gallon the discus were thriving in. I also used api stress zyme, at that time. (which I will never use again). everything continued to be fine for about 5 days, when the talk bloomed with slime. I mean BLOOMED. I did a few 25% water changes. Now I realize I have disrupted the bialogical filtration. now I am back at step one minus a few steps because of the heeps and heeps of slime. I took down my 55 when i setup the 72, and I also dumped the water from my established 10 gallon into the 72 to help the nitrogen cycle.

So now I am stuck with no beneficial bacteria, and an amonia spike (level at about 3 right now)

I am almost certain api stress coat is to blame for this bloom of slime. I am some what embarassed this happened to me. I have been keeping aquariums for over a decade and consider myself to be quite knowledgeable about the aquaria.

I used the api stuff because one of my local fish suppiers swears by it. I can swear she is retarded at this point. Help please!

Also I have been using spi stress coat as a dechlorinator for feeder guppies for years, but will never chance using fresh tap water on any other fish. does stress coat remove chlorine, and chloramine? safe for discus?

and help is much apreciated!!

I have the discus in an emergencie 10 gallon that I have had setup for a few months now, although after testing I found out that it is most likly not cycled either, since all readings are at zero.

The urgency of this post is due to low oxygen levels, now undercontrol in ten gallon, through the use of treated but NOt aged tap water. It seems to me that whatever this bacterial is it is using oxygen. I have my airstone on full blast!

[BobbyBruce]

Hi LD,

Sorry to hear about your problems.

I currently have a 400 ltr tank which has been set up for well over 12 months and I have 0 Ammonia, 0 NitrIte and 0 NitrAte for my readings. Discus are doing well.

When you say you did a few 25% changes how often did you do them. Most people recommend 33% three times a week, ie, the total volume over the period of the week. I do 25% every second day which works out much the same.

Your water changes should not disrupt the capacity of your filter to deal with biological waste via the nitrate cycle. This may happen however if there are contaminants such as chlorine, ammonia and/or chloramine in your water or even if it is significantly different in temperature compared to your tank. Do you age and warm the water, test before adding?

To try to control/eliminate the slime try wiping down the inside of the tank with paper towel when you do your water changes.

What are your water parameters in regards to Ph, Gh and Kh and what readings to you have in regards to ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte (both the water in the tank and your change water)? Use large/regular water changes to reduce your ammonia readings at the very least.

This thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=81492 (different forum) may give you some ideas regarding the importance of cycling and the impact that ammonia, nitrite and nitrate may have on your discus.

Use the search function on this site to access other threads relating to the same topic.

Good luck,

Bob

[boxters]

The slime you talk of is algae, as algae love ammonia.the tank must be getting plenty of light and be at the right temp for algae growth. The fish need to be removed as ammonia will cause permanent damage. Are you running uv? Best thing for this is to black out the tank for a few days. Put a blanket over it. This will kill the alge. I would then do a fish less cycle.

[swampy1972]

Hi LD,

Don't be embarrassed, most people here will tell you it's happened to them, and those that say it hasn't are lying :D

Have a look through these articles on water chemistry. I found this particular one very helpful for breaking down the concept of the nitrogen cycle.
http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

The way your post reads to me is that as your filter began to cycle, you took the inital readings to mean it was ready then dumped 5 fish in there. I'd suggest 2 things.
1. Your filter was still wasn't mature - still growing biological filtration capacity.
2. You introduced too many fish too quickly.

I've never heard of filter being completely cycled from new within 3 days, even with the inclusion of preused media, substrate and water.

Remove them to another tank if you can and then follow the instructions in the article. If you cannot remove them, continue with daily 30-50% water changes to assist the filter stay in front of the ammonia spike while it cycles. This will also help with your algae issue.

Once established you can happily maintain your tank with weekly 30% changes for adult Discus in a planted tank. Grow out tanks require more changes though.

Good luck ;)

[Hollowman]

Also remember that the body of water DOES NOT contain the helpful bacteria. Your filter media has this. Using old water just has no effect. It can take 6 to 8 weeks to mature a filter system, only when your levels are correct can you introduce fish.

[Love Discus]

The slime you talk of is algae, as algae love ammonia.the tank must be getting plenty of light and be at the right temp for algae growth. The fish need to be removed as ammonia will cause permanent damage. Are you running uv? Best thing for this is to black out the tank for a few days. Put a blanket over it. This will kill the alge. I would then do a fish less cycle.
no it is some kind of bacteria, or bacteria by product. I say this because it was not green, and it was hogging oxygen majorly.

[Love Discus]

Hi LD,

Don't be embarrassed, most people here will tell you it's happened to them, and those that say it hasn't are lying :D

Have a look through these articles on water chemistry. I found this particular one very helpful for breaking down the concept of the nitrogen cycle.
http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

The way your post reads to me is that as your filter began to cycle, you took the inital readings to mean it was ready then dumped 5 fish in there. I'd suggest 2 things.
1. Your filter was still wasn't mature - still growing biological filtration capacity.
2. You introduced too many fish too quickly.

I've never heard of filter being completely cycled from new within 3 days, even with the inclusion of preused media, substrate and water.

Remove them to another tank if you can and then follow the instructions in the article. If you cannot remove them, continue with daily 30-50% water changes to assist the filter stay in front of the ammonia spike while it cycles. This will also help with your algae issue.

Once established you can happily maintain your tank with weekly 30% changes for adult Discus in a planted tank. Grow out tanks require more changes though.

Good luck ;)
thanks for you input swampy. I greatly appreciate it.

[Love Discus]

Also remember that the body of water DOES NOT contain the helpful bacteria. Your filter media has this. Using old water just has no effect. It can take 6 to 8 weeks to mature a filter system, only when your levels are correct can you introduce fish.
yes I know that the water itself does not contain substantial beneficial bacteria. Okay what happened was I notied the slime bloom, and tested paramiters, amonia barely detectable, but definatly some level present. nitrite results were same as amonia, barely detectable, and nitrates were at about 10. (Imay have those mixed up, I just remember what one is more dangerous by the test solution bottle. but I had very little of the bad one lol. gh and kh were both very very low. and ph was about 6.5 to 6.8. none of the paramiters worried me at all. the thing that worried me was how fast the fish were breathing. they were not at the surface yet, but that would have followed shortly. I had my airstone cranked up to max capacity. so I did a 25 percent water change, with aged (36sh hrs)but not treated water. did another 25 percent change with the same water about 6 hours later. the next day the slime was back and fish stuggling to breath. water paramiters were still about the same minus some nitrates (i think..? the least harful oneanyway.) I had no aged water so I used fresh not aged tap water treated with stress coat. after that I had a HUGE I mean HUGE slime bloom (wish I would have snapped a pic)!! amonia levels were at 3 everything else at zero. ph was nuetral and gh and kh were up slight bit.

fish are still in the ten gallon, wich seams to have enough beneficial bacteria at work. amonia is at 0, nitrites and nitrites are starting to appear. I am just going to watch the ten gallon very closly while I do a fishless cycle on the 72. it all was a major scare for me.

for fish I have 4 turqs. two are about 1 1/2-2 inches in size. the other 2 are about 3 inches. I also have one 2-3 inche red checker(so says lfs, i think hes close hard to tell for right now as juvie)

I think they're safe, but im not comfortable just yet.

thanks for the replys I am so glad god has been with my poor little discus'!

[steph]

Hi LD

Neither stresss zyme or or stress coat is a dechlorinator, depending on where you live if there is chloramine in the tap water then not even 36 hours is sufficient for it to dissipate from your water.

the info on stress zyem is here http://aquariumpharm.com/products/TechSheet.aspx?TechSheetID=29 and stress coat http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=43

I suggest a product like Seachem Prime or API tap water conditioner to treat the chlorine and chloramine.

WRT the slime, can you give more details eg is it brown (diatoms) is it all over the water surface - thats possible and would certainly affect oxygen levels, that could be some sort of protein or oil residue, etc

I would still keep up the water changes, yes they will reduce the nitrates but thats not a problem really, nitrates are an indicator that the biological filter is working, as long as you have something producing enough ammonia to keep your filter going equivalent to tht estocking levels required

hth

steph

[BigDaddyAdo]

Dont take this the wrong way but how can someone that has apparently over 10 years experience be having some on the issues you are having?

You had measurable ammonia and nitrates but you say that none of the test results worried you?

If i were you i would go out and get some Prime and start doing lots of water changes ASAP as is sounds that you have moved them to an uncycled tank. Correct? You state that it has been set up for some time. Has it had a bioload over this time?

Filter cartridges? What filter are you using?

What else is in the tank? Lighting?

Some more details of your set up may help.

What are the parameters of the water that you use to do water changes? Where does it come from?

[Greggy]

Ok LD, I am here to help! What is the latest update on this issue? Are the fish doing ok?

I think your 72 gal tank is suffering from NTS (New Tank Syndrome). Although you introduced some biological media from the older 55 gal tank, it was probably nowhere near enough. The Nitrate you detected was likely from the old tank water from the 55. Certainly don't bother bringing in old tank water as it does nothing except making the diagnosis of the new tank water that much harder.

The clear/white 'slime' you describe is indeed a type of bacteria, and its also typical of new tanks beginning their cycling process. The bacteria itself is generally not harmful, but you are correct in that it will use oxygen in the water at an alarming rate as it processes the microscopic amounts of food in the tank water and multiplies itself. Thankfully, this problem will sort itself out relatively quickly (1 or 2 weeks) as the bacterial bloom exhausts it's food supply and dies out.

All tanks take their own time to cycle. Some people have luck getting their new tank completely cycled in 4 to 8 weeks, but personally I believe it takes longer, somewhere in the range of 8 to 16 weeks. So throw in a dead raw prawn and wait for the tank to mature. That reminds me, what filter(s) are you actually running on your 72?

Please keep us updated on how things progress, and keep up the small but regular water changes using a quality de-chlorinator such as Seachem's Prime as suggested above. You don't have to age the water when using Prime, just make sure its left to mix for several minutes and that the new water is similar in temperature to the tank water.

I am sure that if you stick to the basics and don't rush that in about 10 weeks or so you'll have a beautiful tank with healthy discus and all this will be a distant memory.

Cheers!

Greggy

[swampy1972]

keep up the small but regular water changes using a quality de-chlorinator such as Seachem's Prime as suggested above

Just a note for economy's sake.

Consider using Seachem Safe instead of Prime, especially when you're going through shed loads of water. It's the same thing only in a powdered, heavily concentrated form = much more water treated for less chemical.

Look it up in the Seachem site but the number of litres treated per gram is astounding.

I think PSA is doing 1kg for about $50 at the moment.

[Love Discus]

Dont take this the wrong way but how can someone that has apparently over 10 years experience be having some on the issues you are having?

You had measurable ammonia and nitrates but you say that none of the test results worried you?

If i were you i would go out and get some Prime and start doing lots of water changes ASAP as is sounds that you have moved them to an uncycled tank. Correct? You state that it has been set up for some time. Has it had a bioload over this time?

Filter cartridges? What filter are you using?

What else is in the tank? Lighting?

Some more details of your set up may help.

What are the parameters of the water that you use to do water changes? Where does it come from?
I didnt reread my post, but I probably worded somthing wrong. amonia most definatly worries me. an amonia reading of 3 make me panic. I was definatly worried about the oxygen and amonia. after the water change with amonia and nitites back in tune I wasnt worried at all except about the low oxygen levels.

I typed all of that really fast last nigh as I was trying to get to bed! yes I know I am a definate noob in some of your eyes. I have just recently found cichlids interesting. I used to keep mostly tetra type fish, piranhas, and small tetras. I have raised over 100 piranha and grown about 50 of them to 7 inches plus. so yes I am a major noob to discus. thanks for all the support guys!

my tank is going strong now, all parameter sp are in tune. water is a tish cloudly but its been clearing quickly since yesterday. discus are starting to hide their stress bars, and are acting like their nomal selves now.

[Love Discus]

I also today went to petsmart, looking for more ph tester and a dechlorinator, I grabed seachem prime because it seemed cheapest and seemed to have the most detail as to how to use it and what it really does/contains.
i am now very pleased with purchase seeing as you guys use it.

[Love Discus]

Hi LD

Neither stresss zyme or or stress coat is a dechlorinator, depending on where you live if there is chloramine in the tap water then not even 36 hours is sufficient for it to dissipate from your water.

the info on stress zyem is here http://aquariumpharm.com/products/TechSheet.aspx?TechSheetID=29 and stress coat http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=43

I suggest a product like Seachem Prime or API tap water conditioner to treat the chlorine and chloramine.

WRT the slime, can you give more details eg is it brown (diatoms) is it all over the water surface - thats possible and would certainly affect oxygen levels, that could be some sort of protein or oil residue, etc

I would still keep up the water changes, yes they will reduce the nitrates but thats not a problem really, nitrates are an indicator that the biological filter is working, as long as you have something producing enough ammonia to keep your filter going equivalent to tht estocking levels required

hth

steph
makers of stress coat do claim it is a dechlorinator.. eliminating chlorine and chloramine. i read the labels on all the conditioners pet smart offers.

i went with prime because it seemed to have alot of user info, was a good price and actually had some indication of the active ingredients.
stress coat/zyme give almost no user info and says nothing about what it contains. imho api is kinda cheap, they seem to be out for profit more so than quality. In know in order to run a buisness there needs to be a little of both, but they are a bit unbalanced for my liking. I say this because stress coat and stress zyme SUCK, (especially stress zyme). their user friendly test strips are of very low quality compared to jungle brand. the litmus pads dont absorb water properly, and end up dripping down the strip, mixing colo(u)rs (I know most of you probably hate seeing color spelt wrong in your country I know I do).

api is absoulute junk imo except for their glass vial/chem dropper tests work desently. just my experience.

[TW]

The tank was doing well and all, nitrites and nitrate forming within 3 days. So I introdused my 5 discus, and added the cycled water from the 10 gallon the discus were thriving in.

I didnt reread my post, but I probably worded somthing wrong. amonia most definatly worries me. an amonia reading of 3 make me panic. Yeah, maybe it was just the way you worded it, but maybe what BDA means is the quote I took from your initial post. It reads as if the fish were aded when you had a descernable reading of nitrite present. Though maybe you meant it had already passed though the nitrite stage (which now = zero) and only nitrate was testing positive.

But it appears that have everything sorted now, so that is great news. Seachem Prime is excellent stuff, but I've heard from many people about the much better value achieved by using Seachem Safe. I’m thinking of trying it myself soon, although it seems a bit of a pain about dissolving it.

Swampy, does it dissolve easily. I’d be adding it to my 1,000 litre storage tank & I am wondering about the build up of Seachem Safe residue over time?

[swampy1972]

I've heard from many people about the much better value achieved by using Seachem Safe. I’m thinking of trying it myself soon, although it seems a bit of a pain about dissolving it.

Swampy, does it dissolve easily. I’d be adding it to my 1,000 litre storage tank & I am wondering about the build up of Seachem Safe residue over time?

Hi Tw,

TBH I haven't used it YET, but there's 1kg waiting for me when I get back to Aust soon. I planned to use it the same as you by premixing in a 250lt aging barrel with a powerhead and airstone in there so it has all the time it needs to dissolve while the water ages. Although I have read posts by people saying they pre-dissolve it in jug of tepid water prior to adding it to their barrel/tank to hasten the dissolving time.

I'm not sure that you'll end up with significant if any residue in the barrel. If you're thinking you'll end up with a scale like crust around the water line simliar to saltwater or calcium build up, I'd think that would only happen in heavy solutions/concentrations. Remember the whole point of this is to add a very small amount of chemical to a large volume of water. If you're still concerned it would be an interesting question to pose to Seachem Aust'.

My train of thought being that for the sake of a couple of minutes extra during a water change, you'll save a bucket load of chemical/$$ over time and if you add it to an aging barrel without pre-dissloving it, then it's cost you no extra time anyway.

I guess you need to go with whatever you're comfortable with, but looking at the Seachem site they themselves advertise it as the same product as Prime, only more concentrated.

[Love Discus]

The tank was doing well and all, nitrites and nitrate forming within 3 days. So I introdused my 5 discus, and added the cycled water from the 10 gallon the discus were thriving in.

I didnt reread my post, but I probably worded somthing wrong. amonia most definatly worries me. an amonia reading of 3 make me panic. Yeah, maybe it was just the way you worded it, but maybe what BDA means is the quote I took from your initial post. It reads as if the fish were aded when you had a descernable reading of nitrite present. Though maybe you meant it had already passed though the nitrite stage (which now = zero) and only nitrate was testing positive.

But it appears that have everything sorted now, so that is great news. Seachem Prime is excellent stuff, but I've heard from many people about the much better value achieved by using Seachem Safe. I’m thinking of trying it myself soon, although it seems a bit of a pain about dissolving it.

Swampy, does it dissolve easily. I’d be adding it to my 1,000 litre storage tank & I am wondering about the build up of Seachem Safe residue over time?
no there was nitrite present. I know its not the best idea but I wanted them out of that crampt 10 gallon asap.

[lpiasente]

Been using safe for the last month. No worries disolving it Robyn it disolves straight away. Looks like it will save me heaps of money

[TW]

I can understand you wanting them out of a cramped 10 gallon asap, but IMO I wouldn't have added fish to a tank where I was testing positive to nitrite. Just my opinion :)

But all's well that ends well and I'm glad everything is on track now.

Thanks lpisente & Swampy for the Safe info. Lpiasente, so you just dump it in the storage container, or predissolve it in say a litre of water & then add it in?

[Love Discus]

can somone close this thread? this is the emergency section after all and the conversation has become non emergeny chit chat. thanks