Tank and Equipment cleaning help.

[briztoon]

So today I have bought some potassium permanganate and chlorine powder.

It's pretty straight forward to put all my driftwood and plants through a condies crystal bath, then let soak for a week.

However, I'm still a little hesitant about using chlorine to nuke the tanks, and clean all the sponge filters, heaters and thermometres. I have bought a small container of PoolBrite pool chlorine, which has an active constituent of 650g/kg of chlorine present as Calcium Hypochlorite. The instructions on the back say to use 80g per 10,000 litres.

What would be a suitable amount of chlorine to use to clean tanks filled with 60 litres of water? one or two teaspoons, or more?

I was going to fill a couple of 10 litre buckets and soak all my equiment in chlorine for 24 hours before I gave it good clean. Again any advice on how much chlorine powder I should use?

Thanks for any advice offered guys.

[Hassles]

If you're going to use chlorine I would'nt be concerned about the strength (as long as its strong enough) as you'll be cleaning everything afterwards regardless.

Be carefull with the potassium permanganate - its corrosive. This can at time be added directly to the tank but......its a situation where you gotta have dosage and durations correct.


some stuff below from the web re Potassium Permanganate

===========

Use Clean Planting Material

Inspect new plant material carefully for eggs and snails.

For better guard against snails and their eggs, one could use a weak potassium permanganate solution of 10 mg/l. Bath the plants in this solution for about 15 minutes and rinse the plants thoroughly with running water after the bathing. This will kill all snails and eggs.

Another option is to use snail-killing chemicals that are sold in pet shops. Use the recommended dose mentioned of the package and put the plants in this solution for 2 to 3 days before introducing them in your aquarium

==========

Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4).

Here is an oldtimer's standby with some very circumscribed aquarium uses. If you aren't cautious, you can do more damage with potassium permanganate than with almost any other chemical in your arsenal. At first appearance, potassium permanganate sounds like a superweapon. It is an oxidizing agent that reacts with suspended and dissolved organic molecules. Its caustic action also oxidizes the cell walls of bacteria. That gives it antiseptic properties, if you're dealing with a wound or with bacterial ulcerations. And over sixty years ago, William T. Innes was recommending KMnO4 at a half-grain to the gallon, as an algicide to clear "green water," for it acts against the unprotected cell walls of algae too. By decimating planktonic protists it will also clear hazy cloudiness in the water, rather the way gunfire will clear the schoolyard. Potassium permanganate reduces high levels of organic substances, especially in koi ponds where water changes are impractical, and it's effective there on bacterial gill infections and "Columnaris Disease." In an aquarium, probably you should be doing water changes instead. At higher concentrations KMnO4 is effective against monogenetic trematodes or "gill flukes," Trichodina, ciliates during their vulnerable free-swimming stage, and it counters some fungal infections too. Potassium permanganate kills snails. It kills other mollusks too; Baltimore's water authority uses KmnO4 in the city water mains to prevent the possible infiltration of zebra mussels.

So why isn't potassium permanganate a godsend? Because using it is a little like using chlorine! Like chlorine, potassium permanganate is utterly unselective in its action. Oxidizers react with any organic: bacteria, protists, algae, DOC and particulate detritus-- but also the delicate epidermis covering fish gills. And the toxic level of KMnO4 is only slightly higher than its therapeutic level of 2ppm. For one thing, it will decimate the desirable nitrifying bacteria in your sponge filter as fast as it acts on unwanted bacteria elsewhere. And some plants are extra sensitive to KMnO4: after a dose of potassium permanganate, Vallisneria can melt away as if it were Cryptocoryne.

How does potassium permanganate work? It dissociates in water to release an ion of potassium and a permanganate ion, MnO4¯. That reactive molecule is unstable, one reason why you should purchase KMnO4 in powder or dry tablet form and make up a fresh stock solution. In a fresh solution, the permanganate ion releases a caustic oxygen molecule--—O2--— when it encounters most organic materials, including desirable humins and polyphenols. Though it's not a primary disinfectant, KMnO4 oxidizes cell materials of a wide range of bacteria, cyanobacteria, fungi, algae, protozoa and viruses. The oxidation acts like bleach. The reaction leaves manganese oxide, MnO2, which precipitates out, perhaps temporarily browning the glass of the tank. You can see the reaction happening, as the magenta pink color of unreacted KMnO4 oxidizes first to a rosy tea color, then to amber and brown; the time it takes to spend itself depends on the concentration of dissolved organic matter. In fact a rough-and-ready field test for dissolved organics measures the time it takes for KMnO4 to completely oxidize in a water sample.

Potassium permanganate oxidizes iron and manganese, too, making them precipitate out. This effect might be undesirable to some planted-tank enthusiasts, who add iron to the water, but others associate iron with algae production. There is a slight reduction of alkalinity associated with the reaction, through acid (H+) production, but not enough to consider in the context of water softening.

Sometimes fishes overdosed with potassium permanganate show the rusty brownish coating on their fins., as the glass jar in which you make up your stock solution will be stained with brown magnesium oxide. That liberated O2 which oxidizes any organic material it encounters, can burn your fishes' gills as thoroughly as chlorine. The gill lamellae may form scar tissue that permanently affects their efficiency, leaving your fish forever gasping for oxygen. "Scaleless" fishes that are sensitive to all medicaments, are especially vulnerable to potassium permanganate. In years gone by, goldfish were dipped for up to 90 minutes in a potassium permanganate solution; they would survive, apparently fine, but die from gill damage as much as several weeks afterwards. So the practice was discontinued.

A virtue of treatments using potassium permanganate is that the color of the solution gives you an indication of the strength of the dose (water should never be more than pale magenta pink) and lets you follow the action and know whether the effect is spent and decide if you should re-dose.

Some cautions. In dry form, as a black-purple cake or pill, potassium permanganate is a serious skin and eye irritant and is potentially fatal if swallowed. The material safety data sheet on KMnO4 should be carefully read. Your stock solution should be about 1/8 teaspoon of dry crystals in a pint of water; the traditional "pinch in a pint." You'd use this stock solution in a concentration of 5 tablespoons per 10 gallons to make a short-term bath. Or you could pre-dissolve 1/8 teaspoon of crystals in 3 gallons of water as a three-minute dip to kill external parasites. The potency of potassium permanganate depends on the organic content of the water; in addition, it's good to be aware that KMnO4 is more potent in water with a low pH. Besides organic content and pH, its toxicity to fishes also varies according to hardness, and even depends on temperature. Common dosing levels range from 2 to 4 ppm.

Why would you ever use an agent like this in an aquarium? KmnO4 does have limited uses. As a 90 minute dip for plants, for example, a mild solution of potassium permanganate will eliminate snails and other unwanted hitchhikers. If you are breeding fish whose eggs are very sensitive to organics in the water, you might pre-treat the spawning water; before introducing the fish, you'd wait for the color to oxidize. Or you might use it simply to test for organic pollutants. As a general disinfectant potassium permanganate can be made into a 10 ppm solution. Cautious treatments are made at daily intervals, followed by water changes. When the water remains magenta pink for several hours, potassium permanganate has oxidized most of the available dissolved organics. Fish should not be subjected to this regimen.

Kordon markets a 3.84% solution of potassium permanganate as "Permoxyn" if you can't get it cheaper in crystal form, either at the drugstore or among water conditioner supplies at your local HardWarehouse or wherever. Read up on Permoxyn at the Kordon site. The company makes this disclaimer: "This product should only be used when there is evidence that excessive and/or dissolved organics are present." Permoxyn is "not intended as a medication or chemotherapeutic agent." That should keep the FDA off their back. Jungle's "Clear Water Extract" also contains potassium permanganate.

KentMarine markets Poly-Ox, a solution of "manganic acid salts" (manganic acid being H2MnO4) that works very much like potassium permanganate (KMnO4) to oxidize organics. Before you consider using it, read the distributor's copious cautions at the KentMarine website .

H2O2 as an antidote. If you want to quickly deactivate KMnO4, you can do it with hydrogen peroxide, which is another caustic oxidizer with antibacterial properties. The H2O2 should be at a concentration of 5ml/20 gallons: it will work in a few minutes. You should be aware that KMnO4 inactivates formalin and malachite green; the potassium permanganate will act as an antidote if they are all used together. AmQuel will also react with Kordon's Permoxyn. U. of Florida Extension Services recommend KMnO4 for commercial fishponds as a safer substitute, though pricier, when copper sulfate is too unpredictably toxic, due to lack of alkalinity in the water.
"Potassium permanganate can be applied at a concentration of 2 mg/L, which will result in a purple-pink color of the water. If the water turns yellow or brown in less than 8 to 10 hours, then the treatment should be repeated. Usually, a maximum of three applications (2 mg/L each) is recommended during any one treatment (maximum concentration of 6 mg/L)."
That is a recommendation for ponds, not in aquaria containing small, delicate fish, where 2mg/L for four hours might be safer limits, and a day or two should pass before a repeat treatment.

The Culligan Co. of Canada explains the action of potassium permanganate in filtering drinking water at their site. Peter Selph's good article on potassium permanganate is archived at The Discus Page.

Dr. Erik Johnson explains the action of KMnO4 in two articles at www.koivet.com, working from the perspective of its use in ponds. (Click on "Medications & Doses" in the menu). He explains it carefully but adds, "If you do not understand this regimen, do not use it."

But Dr. Roddy W. Conrad's "Protocol for using Potassium Permanganate in the treatment of Koi and goldfish" at 2 ppm rather than the more common 4 ppm, archived at the www.arborman.com site, is the best PMnO4 article on the Web.

Potassium permanganate is also covered in a 1999 E.P.A. guidance manual "Alternative disinfectants and oxidants" (Do a www.google.com search for the title's key words if the link is ineffective.) The document very briefly touches on the main effects of potassium permanganate.



This page last updated: 09/09/05 01:44:35 AM
©All text and images copyright 1999-2005 The Skeptical Aquarist.

----------


what is the mixture used to remove algae spores and snail eggs from plant leaves?



Are you asking about treating the plants inside or outside the tank? There's really not much you can add to safely eliminate snails inside the tank, baiting, hand picking, or adding snail eating fish is your best choice. To disinfect plants I use the following method.

Potassium Permanganate Dip

The first dip is milder and safer for the plants. It is a Potassium Permanganate dip. Potassium Permanganate is available at Sear's and Ace Hardware in the area where they sell water softener’s and supplies. You can also purchase Potassium Permanganate from chemical supply companies, both local and online.

To prepare a disinfectant dip, use a bucket filled about 1/2 full of water. Add enough Potassium Permanganate to color the water a dark pink. This solution can be saved if covered, and it's a great way to store your nets and tools, soaking the this solution. Back to the dipping. To disinfect and kill most algae a 10-20 minute dip (more like bath) in Potassium Permanganate is very effective. Rinse the plants under tap water thoroughly and add dechlor to your tank...it neutralizes Potassium Permanganate too.

CAUTION: Potassium Permanganate is a strong powerful oxidizer. Treatment should be made outside the tank...it will kill your bio-filter. Like all chemicals you should wear protective eye wear and gloves. Potassium Permanganate will stain clothing, carpeting, skin, etc. Never combine Potassium Permanganate and Formalin, this will result in explosive results and dangerous gases.


Bleach (Chlorine) Dip

This is a more effective and sure-fire way to kill algae. It is also very easy to kill the plant in the process. Regular household bleach (i.e. Clorox) is diluted to a 5% (19 parts water to 1 part bleach) solution in a bucket. It's good to have a second bucket filled with rinse water containing 3X the normal dechlor. Dip large leaf plants for 3 minutes, immediately move to the dechlor rinse water, then rinse under running tap water for a few seconds, if you still smell chlorine, repeat the rinse process again. For small delicate leaf plants and mosses dip for only 2 minutes in the bleach. To be safe, add dechlor to the tank after adding the plants back. Also, if your dipping a lot of plants you may need to add more dechlor to your rinse water.

Remember, the bleach dip is a last resort solution. It can and may kill your plants! Use the same caution handling bleach as recommended for Potassium Permanganate.



Alum Dip

The Alum dip is more for killing microscopic bugs. Use at 10 teaspoons per gallon of water. Soak the plant for at least an hour, longer soaks of 2 to 3 days are needed to kill snails and snail eggs. For snails and snails eggs a 2-3 hour soak in a stronger solution of 2 tablespoons per 2 gallons of water is a better choice. Alum isn’t nearly as effective as the prior two for killing algae. Alum is aluminum sulfate and Alum USP can be obtained from a compounding pharmacy or grocery stores. (It’s usually with the spices, herbs and pickling supplies).
_________________
aka Framer at FishGeeks

www.aquariaplants.com

===========

[briztoon]

Thanks Hassles,

I bought two small 15 litre rectangular tubs today to use as baths for the Potassium Permanganate dip. I added 1 tea spoon of the crystals to one tub, and did a 1 minute dip for each log and plant, then a quick rinse off bath in the second tub, then into some water filled buckets.

By the sounds of it, I may have had my solution too strong, and the bath period too short. So I will do a propper bath tomorrow, probably only using 1/2 a tea spoon of crystals.

As for the chlorine powder, I have three tanks to clean, along with the sponge filters, etc that go with them. I threw all the substrate out. Two tanks are off the stand and have already been cleaned with regular tap water, while the third tank is still on the stand, though tt's been cleaned out as well.

I was thinking of filling each tank and adding 3 teaspoons of chlorine powder, give them another good scrub and let them sit for 24 hours before I empty them again. Then I planned to refill them and treat with a strong dose of prime for 24 hours again before I emptied them again and let them sit dry for a week or so.

The sponge filters and stuff I was going to let soak in some 10 litre buckets filled with water and add 1 tea spoon of chlorine powder for a few hours. The rinse them off, then soak in some water if added prime. I'm just not sure if the equipment can be left soaking for 24 hours our so. Mainly concerned about the sponges degrading.

[Hassles]

Thanks Hassles,
The sponge filters and stuff I was going to let soak in some 10 litre buckets filled with water and add 1 tea spoon of chlorine powder for a few hours. The rinse them off, then soak in some water if added prime. I'm just not sure if the equipment can be left soaking for 24 hours our so. Mainly concerned about the sponges degrading.

As sponge filters are so affordable why bother cleaning them ? chuck 'em and buy some new ones.

take care & best of luck

[Noddy65]

I agree with Hassles...chuck them as you'll never be able to adequately clean them

Mike