Orange-Flash & Super-Red

[Hassles]

Late last year I, along with two fish friends, acquired a pair of A.cacatuoides 'orange-flash'. Expectedly all three of us bred this strain but rather unexpectedly none of us managed to raise the fry, something I thought particularly odd. I personally had a near identical experience with the A.agassizi 'super red' having bred this strain quite soon after acquisition but lost all but two of the fry. I attempted to seek some answers from those I respect only to find hmms, shrugged shoulders and chin rubbing. As I have said numerous times, I do not breed fish, I only provide the environment so I began pondering the environment which was failing to meet the demands of the fish. I knew instinctively the water parameters were ok and the environment, with regards to aquascaping, would also have suited these species. Finding myself at a loss for answers I considered lowering the temperature thinking that this might delay the hatching of the eggs allowing the embryo to develop just a little more and that perhaps the emerging fry might be a little more robust when they did finally emerge. With the cacatuoides this also failed. I myself was then hmm-ing, shrugging my shoulders and rubbing my chin. What I did next was removed the cannister filters replacing them with sponges to reduce water movement within the tanks. I thought that perhaps the water movement, although anything but extreme, may have been too much for the fry. I really was clutching at straws as they say. Hey presto, the A.cacatuoides bred again and the fry are fast becoming juveniles who currently have in-tank independence eg: no longer bothering to heed mums advice now three weeks old. The A.agassizi fry are still alive now five days after emerging all 'appears' well enough. While I fed the cacatuoides fry on microworms I decided to feed the agassizi 'fry-starter' and 'green water' as they appeared quite tiny. All this may be nothing but a coincidence but I think its a fair assumption that these line-bred strains are strangely more difficult to breed than their God created equivalents and a different approach is required to realise success. I mention this here to assist others who may have had similar experiences to myself while attempting to breed these line-bred strains. Anybody who themselves has attempted to breed these strains whether successful or not may feel welcome to post their findings here.

take care

[gingerbeer01]

I have a cloud of orange flash a similar age - what age dd you start losing them?

How much flow was the canister producing?

I use sponge filters - I Luv Sponge Filters.

Steve

[Vspec]

So how or in what setting do the fry of this species develope in the wild hassles?

I was under the impression A.cacatuoides were slightly more resiliant that their commrades.

[Hassles]

I have a cloud of orange flash a similar age - what age dd you start losing them?

How much flow was the canister producing?

I use sponge filters - I Luv Sponge Filters.

Steve

The fry were all gone within a few days. I was employing an eheim classic 2211 on a 50 litre tank. Yes, I am confident the fry did not end up in the filter.

[Hassles]

So how or in what setting do the fry of this species develope in the wild hassles?

I was under the impression A.cacatuoides were slightly more resiliant that their commrades.

The orange-flash cacatuoides is not a creature created by god but rather developed within the aquarium hobby by line breeding. Same things as dog breeders do. While the fish has undergone transformation to develop an unbroken & unmottled orange finnage during the process other aspects of the creature can become fragile eg: like the british bulldog who have developed small hearts - they look great but you can't walk them past the letter box - to offer you an example. So while the wild strains (eg: naturally occuring) of A.cacatuoides is a robust fish these line-bred varients may very well not be. What to do ? find somebody else with orange flash and cross-breed to keep new genes in the line as best as one can.

take care

[steph]

Ive no experience with Orangeflash, but definately think A. agassizi are smaller than other fry at free swimming, notes and references also say aggies are 9 - 10 days free swimming, whereas A. baenschi are free swimming in 7. Maybe the longer period as wrigglers means they are hungrier/need more food once free swimming.

I suspect that a large spawn of tiny agassizi fry will eat a huge amount of infusoria in a tank and then they starve fairly quickly. I think I lost a spawn of A. agassizi alenquer this way, at 5/6 days free swimming.

Speaking of which I just pulled a few baenschi fry from the mother(s) this week and at < 3 weeks they were "huge" already, at least 4mm.

Temperature definately has an impact on growth rate, and long term temperature too high or too low has a detrimental effect, too high and the fish will remain stunted even once the temp is adjusted. - For those who havent read it there is excellent data on this in the front of Romers CA1.

Lots of "hmms, shrugged shoulders and chin rubbing" from me too. I personally dont think A agassizi is a beginners apisto at all, in any form when it comes to breeding.

Cheers

Steph

[Vspec]

Thanks for going easy on me with my comment/question hassles, i neglected to pick up the meaning on line breed.

Interesting notion though!

Ok, So for the sake of asking the question, would combining your hybrid breed with another wild species potentially give you another percentage of known stability within a normal & minimal generational stepback ? Or is this something that's is not even regarded as kosher within breeding circles due to defeating the point?

[Hassles]

Thanks for going easy on me with my comment/question hassles, i neglected to pick up the meaning on line breed.

Interesting notion though!

Ok, So for the sake of asking the question, would combining your hybrid breed with another wild species potentially give you another percentage of known stability within a normal & minimal generational stepback ? Or is this something that's is not even regarded as kosher within breeding circles due to defeating the point?

the hybridisation of an orange-flash with any other cacatuoides would introduce new genes which would benefit the fish but.....you would lose the orange coloration of the finnage. Orange Flash retail for up to $130 per pair where regular cacatuoides retails at about $35 per pair to put things into perspective. They are a pretty fish favoured by some.

[gingerbeer01]

It is not hybridisation - they are both cacatoides - same species - and both line bred.

I have though of throwing the male with a regular female - while his other woman is caring for fry - and then breeding back the two respective fry - just to see. Worse that could happen is some triple or double reds.

$130/pair :shock:

[Vspec]

It is not hybridisation - they are both cacatoide

Yup, i indeed stand corrected, wrong use of wording.

Insert *Breeding Attribution* instead.

[gingerbeer01]

I blame guppy breeders for the misuse of the term - they talk about hybrid vigour in line breeding when out crossing.

I suspect that thee are going to be variations of the amount of black in the fins to start of with in the orange flash - and say that as some of the orange flash I have seen imported have not quite as orange as you would expect fins - hence suspect either some substitution by wholesalers - or mixed amounts of colours from orange flash.

Hassles - the 2 you raised - did they keep the lack of black in the fins?

[Hassles]

I blame guppy breeders for the misuse of the term - they talk about hybrid vigour in line breeding when out crossing.

I suspect that thee are going to be variations of the amount of black in the fins to start of with in the orange flash - and say that as some of the orange flash I have seen imported have not quite as orange as you would expect fins - hence suspect either some substitution by wholesalers - or mixed amounts of colours from orange flash.

Hassles - the 2 you raised - did they keep the lack of black in the fins?

The 2 I raised ? thess two were agassizi super-reds and identical to their parents, the latest spawn of orange flash (the first to survive) ain't yet at juvenile stage eg: they emerged June 27th. Dad's a pretty boy with unblemished orange finnage. Mum has orange tips to her dorsal.

take care

[Hassles]

Ive no experience with Orangeflash, but definately think A. agassizi are smaller than other fry

I agree with you in this regard, I was a bit surprised with the first agassizi fry and noted them being smaller than most other apisto fry I've had



at free swimming, notes and references also say aggies are 9 - 10 days free swimming, whereas A. baenschi are free swimming in 7. Maybe the longer period as wrigglers means they are hungrier/need more food once free swimming.

hmm, more than a little reasononmg in that summation I reckon



Lots of "hmms, shrugged shoulders and chin rubbing" from me too. I personally dont think A agassizi is a beginners apisto at all, in any form when it comes to breeding.

I have a distinct tendency to agree with in this regard.

take care

[Vspec]

Once im on the level, you going to extend an invitation for a beer & rundown of your setups hassles. Or am i just far too annoying & pesky for that.... :)

[Hassles]

Once im on the level, you going to extend an invitation for a beer & rundown of your setups hassles. Or am i just far too annoying & pesky for that.... :)

depends on the beer & who's payin' :wink:

[Vspec]

~ observer of course. Goes without saying!

Quality Beer choices is always something to be pondered, however if we're talking quality, then im partial to frosted Asahi.

[Hassles]

~ observer of course. Goes without saying!

Quality Beer choices is always something to be pondered, however if we're talking quality, then im partial to frosted Asahi.

I'd settle for just about anything from "Red Hill Brewery" - their Scotch Ale and Belgium Blonde are stunners. Perhaps sone of the ales of the Trappist Monks of Belgium - big beers them, bold, herbacious and aromatic with a alcohol percentage that demands respect. Should we pity the fish that can only look on as we imbibe ?

I think I shall compose a posting that outlines my perspective of Apistogramma.

take care

[Vspec]

I think I shall compose a posting that outlines my perspective of Apistogramma.

Ok, so you have my attention. Hopefully in the near future given your hectic scheduals



imbibe great word bud. I had to look that one up to be honest, never come across it before!

[Vspec]

Temperature definately has an impact on growth rate, and long term temperature too high or too low has a detrimental effect, too high and the fish will remain stunted even once the temp is adjusted. - For those who havent read it there is excellent data on this in the front of Romers CA1.

Its definitely been an interesting read.
Im a few hundred pages in already.




I have though of throwing the male with a regular female - while his other woman is caring for fry - and then breeding back the two respective fry - just to see. Worse that could happen is some triple or double reds.

Ginger, talk to me more about this bud. So if im getting this right, your saying have 2 batches of fry on the go, same father, different mothers, then once the fry are ready, breed pairs between them?
Wouldn't this in effect create the possibility of genetic mutations having the same fathers genes?

[steph]

Its pretty much how all line breeding of any species (fish/dog/cat etc) is done, breeding daughters back to fathers, or sibling to sibling - especially for a recessive trait such as albinism. Usually the 'desired' trait/mutation only come from one individual and so with line breeding the genetic pool is always going to be small as a majority of the genes are from a single source.


Personally Ive seen some really nice orange flash - Kristinas were good, and some plain ol' butt ugly ones - there were a few pics floatin around on another forum that were IMHO hideous.

Cheers

steph