System Set-ups: Methodologies, Principles & Criteria [Archive]

Vspec

Sun May 23, 2010, 03:06 PM

Hello Everyone.

Im glad to see alot more action on this board as opposed to some of our other affiliate clingers . Interesting to see what consolidation brings, if it indeed happens. But anyways, thats another story & not why im here.

The reason why im actually here, is due to something I like to call the Swiss Cheese Effect.
Everyone knows the principle, where it takes a seemingly random series of events to line up enough holes to actually see potential and a path to the other side.

Now flashback a couple a weeks off the back of an strangely average day.

The phone rings, the familiar voice! a brief hello from your partner, followed by that slight pause.........., then those ever so familiar words of starting the next sentence with... ""Ive Been Thinking""!!! :)

Using the same 'life flashing before your eyes' analogy, it seems in those fractions of a second like your mind has already spooled every possible combination that could pass from those lips. lol

Now those of us with partners in aquatic crime will know all too well the usual supportive partner reaction thats required here when they ring to tell you they've discovered yet another aquatic interest.
Myself personally, i believe i give plenty of rope to my partner in this area, hell, more often than not im the one building her random platforms in which to jump to.

It certainly helps when over my years Ive gone through the whole aquatic thing myself. From low end goldfish keeping to mastering captive reefs. So much so that I had scaled back almost all my ventures & was now looking forward to a new direction or hobby.

Unfortunately that was not to be the case. Because the species she recently brought home was stunning. Enough to rekindle the aquatic flame. Seeing them spawning in such quick succession just added to momentum. She got them from one of you, so thank you by the way.

So now comes the fun part. Like any one of us that have taken the committed road, the spare parts bin is always overflowing & the ability to make anything custom is just conceptual thought away.

If its possible folks, i'd like to see some prime examples of peoples set-ups, both visually & conceptuality from the general hobbiest & the more serious breeders among us.

What methodologies your deploying & why.
What design principles you adhered to & how that effected your outcomes.
Design characteristics & a SWOT type analyses (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats) that you have noticed or achieved with your chosen system, occupancy, set-up or situation.

All very interesting stuff. Judging by the members whom contribute frequently, it should make for an interesting thread.

In the meantime i'll soak up everything i need to bring myself up to speed in order to build the misses breeding station effectively based on your shared wealth of experiences.

Till then...

V-out

Mr Wild

Sun May 23, 2010, 09:51 PM

Sun May 23, 2010, 10:40 PM

Ah well then I can only surmise that it was a pair of discus! Nothing else for me has that enchantment to draw you in. Am I right?I suspect an apisto of some variety.

None of my setups are interesting enough to go into great detail, but just to say that apistos like little caves (have at least one per fish) and you should have lots of decor to break up the line of vision. Planted tank with lots of driftwood is a good choice for them.

Good luck with your new interest

Vspec

Mon May 24, 2010, 02:38 AM

2 breeding pair A.cacatuoides triple red
1 breeding pair A.trifasciata

Sorry bud, out of luck on the discus guess. Colourful yes, but id personally never keep them by choice. :) It boggles me though why people refer them as king of the aquariums (fresh water at least, cause they dont hold candle to marine) when cichlids from an outside perspective seems to be better suited to that title given their persona.
Im definitely speaking out of tune as ive never personally kept them, however i always just found them just floating disks of colour.
Maybe i should take the time to get better acquainted with the species so i can formulate an exacting opinion.

so anyways, ive got about 14ft room width, so doing the calc with her current stocking list above(inclusive of an adjacent fry grow out tank), ive agreed to build up to a 13ft breeding station to play around on. This should include active QT as well if we're doing it right!

Im old school, and heavily schooled in marine, so an emphasis on biological conformity, gas exchanges, CUC (cleanup crews) & deploying sumps are always at the top of my lists. Im interested in understanding everyones scope though. That way i can find the middle ground & go from there.

Planted varieties have already dominated the current holding tanks. however ive declined to place much wood in them. The only pieces i do have are for the bristlenose currently. Are you saying just for decor, or the tannic acids are your buffer.?

RO/DI water spits out in the PH6 range anyways. However in interested in hearing your thoughts

Vspec

Mon May 24, 2010, 03:08 AM

Ah well then I can only surmise that it was a pair of discus! Nothing else for me has that enchantment to draw you in. Am I right?

I would love to tell you a tale of an organised person who had done their research and built a NASA style fish abode from start up but I cannot.

I too were enchanted, it started from 1 fish at the lfs to now well over a dozen with many pairs and a conglomerate of tanks all over the house in every nook and cranny I could find.
I now have a fish room being built in my garage to initially carry 14 x 2.5 tanks on 2 separate sumps, I will still run sponge filters because I love the ease of just plopping one in a newly setup tank and I am ready to go. But electricity is my burden so sumps it is thus cutting 14 heaters to 2. I am even enquiring about solar heating but that just might be a whim as the $$ may decide.
Of course I have told myself that all bar one tank will stay in the house but you never really know if that is actually going to happen!
I have then branched out to other species and have a breeding frenzy thing happening in my head - nothing like little fry!

Good luck with the thread I too will be watching closely you might be able to share some of your tips with us too.

Cheers Kath

ok so thats a decent setup, 14 tanks & two sumps. You got any progress shots as id love to see your garage conversion.

Questions - the first thing i thought of was odd numbered display tanks per sump system?
This is due to being a freak on the symmetry front.

Im assuming it will be in bank & tier fashion, interested in your combinations, how you plumbed it & any issues you may encounter if a tank gets sick & effects the remaining inline?

Heating outside the norm is a tricky one in your situation, your in a garage. Most garages by nature can be cold & draft worthy. Unless your building a sub framing enclosing the space aka fish room then your options are limited. Your right though, you can drop the 14 heaters. Depending on how big your sumps are, id still deploy 2 per sump. This factors redundancy & hopefully uniform temperature gradients. & just hope like sh^t that if they fail, they are designed to fail off.

gingerbeer01

Mon May 24, 2010, 03:12 AM

Firstly Get Romers Chiclid Atlas Volume 1 - you need a good reference book.

Secondly Apistogramma are a big fish int erms of space requirement. Do not be fooled into the small tank way of thinling. Allow typically 1 square foot per female, and an extra bit per male. Most Apistos are harem living fish - 1 male few females. Hence setting up trios in bigger tanks is fun.

Thirdly be aware they are a cichlid. They can be cranky and can rip the face of one another (yes I am serious and literal here) Typcially the male is slighty rough on the girls, then they breed and the female goes balistic. It is not uncommon to lose males due to jumping out in small tanks.

Fourthly be aware that we deal with wild caughts and asian bred fish that are susceptable to a mix of funky bacterial diseases. Quarantine does not help I beleive as some diseases have long incubation times.

All the above adds up to minimum tank size for keeping two footers, seperate filters as permanantly quarantine fish, some smaller tanks for males to go when female is psycho, or a big holding tank for the boys.

gingerbeer01

Mon May 24, 2010, 03:18 AM

My tanks used to look like this - except I have now replaced gravel with sand and am getting better results.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/gingerbeer/IMG_2201.jpg

The basic components are breeding pots, driftood and leaves.

Vspec

Mon May 24, 2010, 03:58 AM

ok thanks for the update & advice.

Leaves tend to break down adding nutrients back into your tank, is there a reason why you use them.?

I see by the pic that you only run the sponge o2 riser? is that so the fry are comfortable without associated risks

Mon May 24, 2010, 04:14 AM

It boggles me though why people refer them as king of the aquariums (fresh water at least, cause they dont hold candle to marine) I had those exact same thoughts as you .... until I finally saw a discus the way they are meant to look. Even most top quality LFS don't have discus worth buying! I prefer a good quality discus over hubby’s marines, but admit I'd prob prefer a marine over most discus that you see in LFS :(

when cichlids from an outside perspective seems to be better suited to that title given their persona. Hehehe, each to their own. I was bored by my Africans, so I gave them away to make way for yet another discus tank !

i always just found them just floating disks of colour. I get what you mean. IMO, it's true except for wild discus, which have retained their great schooling instincts. But having non discus tank mates creates extra movement & interest.

Anyway, back to topic :lol:

so anyways, ive got about 14ft room width, so doing the calc with her current stocking list above(inclusive of an adjacent fry grow out tank), ive agreed to build up to a 13ft breeding station to play around on. This should include active QT as well if we're doing it right! Well, that sounds great. Gingerbeer has already given you good advice above as to size allowances.

Im old school, and heavily schooled in marine, so an emphasis on biological conformity, gas exchanges, I can't comment too much on marines - I help my hubby maintain his, but that's all. But I think we are coming from sort of the same principle. I am not into BB sterile environments in my freshwater tanks. I like greenery & substrate (except for QT's, which are always BB).

CUC (cleanup crews) & deploying sumps are always at the top of my lists. Im interested in understanding everyones scope though. That way i can find the middle ground & go from there. Clean up crews & other tank mates. You probabaly already understand the issues here. Will the tank mates eat the apistos eggs and/or fry? Will the apisto be able kill the tank mates? I don't have a sump. Started to build one, but for an annoying reason that you don't want cluttering up your thread, it sits empty on the lower level of a 3 level tank rack. Therefore, I can't comment on those. I use cannisters and sponge filters.

Planted varieties have already dominated the current holding tanks. however ive declined to place much wood in them. The only pieces i do have are for the bristlenose currently. Are you saying just for decor, or the tannic acids are your buffer.? For both reasons. If you choose your wood well, they can double as natural caves. But of course the tannin is another added benefit and I always like the look of driftwood, especially with annubia or ferns attached.

RO/DI water spits out in the PH6 range anyways. However in interested in hearing your thoughtsTrue, but I don't use either of those. My water is from the tap. If I was going to lower my ph, I'd use peat, indian almond leaves or pressurised C02 (fora planted tank). I don't use chemicals to lower it, but thats another option.

steph

Mon May 24, 2010, 11:23 AM

hi vspec..

your other half has excellent taste - speaking from a biased point of view :)

ive been keeping apistos for 11+ years and they never fail to entertain, frustrate and be immensely rewarding

despite the small size they are highly territorial cichlids and are within the geophagine family, eg: earth eaters. they do really need a sandy substrate and you can see them sift through it - with out the high level of earth moving the bigger geos can do.

my most success with apistos has actually been in larger tanks, 2 pairs or trios in a 3.5 to 4 ft tank. some apisto species are quite closely related but if you pick species carefully you will find they do not interbreed. suggested reading: apisto complexes, but basically as long as you can differentiate juvenile females by body shape/finnage then its generally ok to mx them.

my current breeding setup was 2ft tanks (60x 30x30cm) with sponge filters, sand, wood, terracotta caves and plants. if you read the "tanks of death" thread I detail some of my trials with these tanks, and I put the problems down to water stability and some of the leaves I used. Going forward I would prefer to put breeding fish in slightly larger tanks - my available space is limited to a 3ft stand so I would go to larger tanks of 60 x 45 x 30cm high - the bigger volume helps with water stability too.

as far as essentials i would say
sand substrate
clean up crew - so MTS or ottos
a highly complex environment to break up the tank lines of sight, this can be done with wood, LOTs of plants, or leaves, wood and leaves also can help add tannins and naturally lower pH - for most common apistos a pH of 6 - 6.5 is fine. More important than pH is carbonate hardness and general hardness (water conductivity is a useful measure) the softer teh better and then the pH falls inline, the other advantage of lots of wood and plants is you build a high level of micro-organisms in the tank for fry to feed on.
caves for spawning, given a choice mine have always preferred small terracotta pots with the drainage hole enlarged
good food for spawning conditioning
dithers/target fish can be useful, lots of people use pencil fish or hatchet fish - definite top water swimmers, I had a pair of panduro that were having problems "bonding", they over came it, and the 4 endler guppies in the tank disappeared over a couple of days, a week later I had free swimming fry :)
qt/hospital tank
growout tanks, i leave fry with the mother for 3 - 4 weeks, good mums do all the hard work of feeding the fry and its great to watch her herding them around. growout tank i do bare bottom and some apistos can be prolific eg 50 + fry so the growout needs to be big enough for this.

hth, welcome to the board and enjoy the fish

cheers

steph

Vspec

Mon May 24, 2010, 12:10 PM

Hi steph

yeah i remember seeing your name on her screen at some point. I believe i also laughed at the title "tank of death" if i recall.

I'll seek it out at any rate & start reading it. Its not a 50 billion page thread now is it! :)

Sand substrate ive got covered, the finer the better in my book. Deep sand beds are your largest surface area for effective denitrification so it goes without saying.

Space isn't a major concern for us. Im used to the massive fish, so we've got some decent tanks to use kicking about the place. Not to mention im mates with one of the best tank builders in melb, so if i need something exacting, its only a phone call away.

Currently she has a set of triple reds alone, with the other 2 future breeding sets awaiting in a 8ft community tank. When i say community, its effectively just a hand picked clean-up crew for freshwater that we sighted as non existent to another fish species . Cories & a few bristlenoses. The cichlids may chase the odd one away when they do the freaky dance, but usually they just sand sift autonomously with total disregard from both parties.
Im not sure on your species your referring to, i may have to ask my partner or look them up.

at any rate, thank you for the information & insight. Will no doubt delve alittle deeper to pick your brain in future.

Vspec

Mon May 24, 2010, 12:34 PM

This is a thread that im getting some use out of naturally , however the title represents another source for learning. I dont really have species information in regards to freshwater, however i can assist in pretty much any other area here. So im happy to put in as much as im taking away.

For lurkers that are reading, any questions, fire away ok.

kristina

Tue May 25, 2010, 11:25 AM

swampy1972

Tue May 25, 2010, 12:22 PM

Leaves tend to break down adding nutrients back into your tank, is there a reason why you use them.?

Hi Vspec,

Firstly, welcome back to the hobby!! I look forward to reading input from someone with a wealth of experience like yourself.
I think the leaves in the pic add tannins and therefore soften the water, much like blackwater extract. I think they're almond leaves..?
I know nothing about Apisto's yet as I just got my first recently but I can share with you some excellent links to two amazing tanks with some very clever hardware ideas. A good idea for a small tank breeding setup borrowed from somewhere off the net and I think would suit dwarfs perfectly. And finally, the tank I'm keeping my Apistos and Blue Rams in.

Enjoy :wink:

Sorry for the non-DF links :oops:

http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php?t=17676
http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php?t=2541

I was going to build one of these based on 1 pair of 30in tanks, 1 5ft grow out tank and a sump on the bottom shelf because I'm short on space.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/swampy1972/Aquarium%20photos/Discusbreedingtanks1.jpg
http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/swampy1972/Aquarium%20photos/Discusbreedingtanks.jpg

My current 2ft cube for my Apisto's and Rams.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/swampy1972/Shrimp/DSC02723.jpg

Mr Wild

Tue May 25, 2010, 02:05 PM

ok so thats a decent setup, 14 tanks & two sumps. You got any progress shots as id love to see your garage conversion.

Questions - the first thing i thought of was odd numbered display tanks per sump system?
This is due to being a freak on the symmetry front.

Im assuming it will be in bank & tier fashion, interested in your combinations, how you plumbed it & any issues you may encounter if a tank gets sick & effects the remaining inline?

Heating outside the norm is a tricky one in your situation, your in a garage. Most garages by nature can be cold & draft worthy. Unless your building a sub framing enclosing the space aka fish room then your options are limited. Your right though, you can drop the 14 heaters. Depending on how big your sumps are, id still deploy 2 per sump. This factors redundancy & hopefully uniform temperature gradients. & just hope like sh^t that if they fail, they are designed to fail off.

Sorry bit late on your reply-life got in the way!
No photos as not yet setup, the tanks rack and sumps are here, the plumbing, insulation and build are all planned. Need another 5000gal water tank and some electrical work before we start.
But I can say that the tanks will be halved per sump as expected each tank will have its own off shoot pipe with a tap so it can be isolated from the sump by the turn of a tap - another reason for sponge filters, it enables any tank to become QT or hospital or whatever.

Lights run on panels under hoods above the tanks, airline will be 2inch pipe with airhoses coming out where necessay. Concrete floor is existing so some grinding of a few channels are necessary for drainage.
More planning on the water heating side of things, meeting with a solar guy in a couple of weeks see what comes of that.

HTH Kath

Vspec

Tue May 25, 2010, 02:16 PM

well I know I'm gunna get slaughtered over my desired setup for apisto's but in all honesty, the BEST BY FAR tank I have in my house is the bitaeniata tank. I use aquasoil as substrate which lowers the pH, a massive piece of driftwood which goes from one corner of the tank to the opposite corner and lots of plants. The pH naturally falls below 6 without having to do anything and I don't need to add anything to the water to feed the plants. I use a coconut cave as the designated breeding site. I have a sponge filter hooked up to the intake of the trickle filter for the fry. All I have ever had to do in this tank is wipe the algae off the glass and change the water. I don't use RO and I don't add anything to the water but dechlorinator. It is the easiest tank to maintain in the house and it is by far the most impressive. The fish have bred without my coercion and the fry are growing well. What more could I ask for?!!

Good luck with the new species and I think I know who u got the fish off... good stock! I know, I have quite a few fish from the same breeder. Keep us updated on the setup and good luck. It would be wise if you are keen to breed these fish to have 3 tanks for each pair should problems arise, or at least the ability to divide a tank. One for the female, one for the male and one for the fry :lol:

Great story. Slaughtered isn't a word i would use, in fact kudos for putting you experiences out there bud. If you've take initiative with experimentation & sighted its working, then be proud of it. Like anything, I tend to always remain open to constructive criticisms with the potential aim to blend any new logical knowledge or trends with your existing.

So talk to me, whats Aquasoil?
Does this compliment the nitrogen cycle?

By the way just so you know, adding a bubble stone to your next water change overnight or placing in the sun for a few hours does exactly the same as what your trying to achieve by using additives flocking the chlorine & chloramine. It simply evaporates from the body of water!

Noted on the extra tanks. Thanks., I was thinking of weighted moveable glass partitions should the need arise.

Good stock indeed. Enough to impress me at any rate.

Vspec

Tue May 25, 2010, 08:12 PM

I was going to build one of these based on 1 pair of 30in tanks, 1 5ft grow out tank and a sump on the bottom shelf because I'm short on space.

Yeah thats a good start indeed.
In the pictures, the plumbing could definitely do with a clean up. although its someone's DIY, so its worth a few beers in celebration at any rate.

Straight standpipes like that are a pain,, let alone in a display. they sound like a toilet flushing 24/7. not to mention its difficult to save guard your animals from the "Express Elevator of H.E.L.L" :)

In this shot, the bottom two are drilled at the back. If this was the flavour of the month, id do all of them like that, with a 'coast to coast' running along the back.

Coast to coast for those who dont know, is a simple DIY weir channel/ rectangle box that runs along the back covering the overflows. Its usually positioned high at the back of the tank & using the same principles as any normal weir, it accepts the rising water from the sump- hence skimming the waters surface removing pollutants.

If you've ever looked at the surface of the water in your own tank, you can clearly see this film doesn't exactly disperse itself. Even with decent surface agitation surface tension brings it right back again once the flow stops.

Its composition is made up from a whole wad of things you add to your tank, amino acids probably making up the bulk of it in most situations. So in seeing this first hand, it doesn't take a genius to realise this effects your gas exchange - and rather drasticly too i might add. This is where a surface skimming device or weir comes in.

For vertical standpipes / dump pipes in the display, then the only time i really see standard straight pipes like that is for large fish only applications. There isn't a chance of getting sucked in & more often than not, its a 5min application when space is given to max swimming potentials. To me its a lazy application just quietly.

To really make it effective ( and liveable ) You need to submerge the intake. Using something like my personal choice, the Durso standpipe, it makes it 100X quieter. The only thing that generates noise is the water travel down the pipe to the sump, which is somewhat unavoidable given the back-pressures of bubbles rising vs water cascading.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040074.jpg

Once again though, space is required for a weir, however if done correctly, will give you zero trouble for the life of the system.

As you can see by an example I built below below, the weir is at the back, with a pending screen to be cut that prevents most things from taking the plunge. Given fry will be involved somewhere in the topic, screening choices & flow rates will have to be factored if your going this route.
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040032.jpg

Your tank looks healthy by the way, good work.
Thanks for the links, i'll try to get to them soon.

[/img]

Vspec

Tue May 25, 2010, 08:35 PM

But I can say that the tanks will be halved per sump as expected each tank will have its own off shoot pipe with a tap so it can be isolated from the sump by the turn of a tap - another reason for sponge filters, it enables any tank to become QT or hospital or whatever.

Lights run on panels under hoods above the tanks, airline will be 2inch pipe with airhoses coming out where necessay. Concrete floor is existing so some grinding of a few channels are necessary for drainage.
More planning on the water heating side of things, meeting with a solar guy in a couple of weeks see what comes of that.

HTH Kath

If thats the case, you will need a gate valve on both sides of the equation. Both input & output. Its the only way to run in series & still have the ability to shut one down. Besides the initial expense of implementation, the biggest thing you need to worry about it choosing the correctly sized return pump for each sump set.

In my opinion, always oversize your RP's by default, you can always deploy a simple plumb back in the sump, not to mention it allows for expandability in future. Better to be too powerful, divert some flow, & ask for forgiveness, than it is to fork out extra $mackos in future i always say :D

Off-cut carpeting will shave a few degree's, not to mention make it more comfortable for you when your out there. However i hear you on the solar application, wow, not a bad way to go if you can get a secondary loop system & thermostat say off your household hot water system.

Good work on the air plenum. what are you using to run it, something like a 50lt air pump?

Tue May 25, 2010, 11:37 PM

gingerbeer01

Wed May 26, 2010, 03:40 AM

quote="kristina"]well I know I'm gunna get slaughtered over my desired setup for apisto's but in all honesty, the BEST BY FAR tank I have in my house is the bitaeniata tank. I use aquasoil as substrate which lowers the pH, a massive piece of driftwood which goes from one corner of the tank to the opposite corner and lots of plants. The pH naturally falls below 6 without having to do anything and I don't need to add anything to the water to feed the plants. I use a coconut cave as the designated breeding site. I have a sponge filter hooked up to the intake of the trickle filter for the fry. All I have ever had to do in this tank is wipe the algae off the glass and change the water. I don't use RO and I don't add anything to the water but dechlorinator. It is the easiest tank to maintain in the house and it is by far the most impressive. The fish have bred without my coercion and the fry are growing well. What more could I ask for?!!

[/quote]

Different people want different things from there tanks. Looking at the pictures here I reckon I have the ugliest tanks in existance. My "fresa" tank I rarely see the fish due to the complex environment and leaves. When he does occasionally appear he is majestic but - and behaves like I think he should - digging in sand like an eartheater - howevering over leaf litter and gone in a flash if he gets scared. Being a wild fish I beleive it took that level of security to get him and her to a level of comfort to breed.

Of course my wife thinks the tank is ugly - just leaves sand driftwood and no fish.

Anyhow noone should "slaughter" a system that works.

The only thing I will say to others on the thread - I am strongly against sumped systems for Apistos. I know they have other benefits, but the disease control issue is a concern and we are dealing with potentially some funky diseases here.

You cannot quarantine for TB, and there are a mess of other funky bacterial and viral issues that seem to occur. Disease control is a major apisto issue. (Cause once they get something your chances of saving a fish are slim to none)

By the way just so you know, adding a bubble stone to your next water change overnight or placing in the sun for a few hours does exactly the same as what your trying to achieve by using additives flocking the chlorine & chloramine. It simply evaporates from the body of water!

My understanding is this works for chlorine - as does just splashing the water - you will smell the chlorine come out, but not for chloramine. The addition of ammonia to produce chloramine produces a very stable compound that you need to chemically break the bond. I know I never worried about chlorine in NSW, but do worry up here in QLD (well not for apistos as they are on tank water)

ILLUSN

Wed May 26, 2010, 04:20 AM

chloroamine WILL NOT evaporate, adding the amine group to the reactive chlorine makes the molocule "stable" and immune to photosensitivity, this is the reason they switched from chlorine to chloroamine. even when broken the amine group undergoes transformation into NH3 and then NH4 (if your pH is low enough), this needs to be neutrilised.

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 04:34 AM

Great story. Slaughtered isn't a word i would use, in fact kudos for putting you experiences out there bud. If you've take initiative with experimentation & sighted its working, then be proud of it. Like anything, I tend to always remain open to constructive criticisms with the potential aim to blend any new logical knowledge or trends with your existing.

So talk to me, whats Aquasoil?
Does this compliment the nitrogen cycle?

By the way just so you know, adding a bubble stone to your next water change overnight or placing in the sun for a few hours does exactly the same as what your trying to achieve by using additives flocking the chlorine & chloramine. It simply evaporates from the body of water!

Noted on the extra tanks. Thanks., I was thinking of weighted moveable glass partitions should the need arise.

Good stock indeed. Enough to impress me at any rate.

The aquasoil is a plant growth substrate from which plants can draw nutrients through their roots. It is basically a man made compound of majoratively iron with a mix of numerous other ingredients to feed plants. It is "supposed" to be used with the powersand etc etc to make it work properly, but I use it by itself like TW wished he did :P . It is expensive - but as it feeds the plants and lowers the pH I have absolutely no need to add plant food or buffers on a regular basis (saves me a small fortune). My pH is constantly below 6 and to prevent a crash I must keep up the regular water changes. There are numerous other plant growth substrates which is all just a matter of opinion but one I would avoid with apisto's would be the eco-complete. It tends to raise pH. I'm not a scientific person so asking me if it helps with the nitrogen cycle is useless. If your basically asking if it will build up certain amount of bacteria I can take a stab at the dark and say yes, no more or less than gravel or sand I would imagine. Perhaps someone with more knowledge in that area can help you.

I age my water in a 200L barrel for anywhere from overnight to a week depending on when it was topped up. gingerbeer is right on the money with the chlorine and chloramine. Chlorine will diminish but not the chloramine, and both need to be dealt with, hence I add the water treatment to the barrel upon adding the water. I'm not sure how far away you are, but Majestic Aquariums sell second hand barrels reasonably cheap. Worth investing in a few if your planning a big setup.

Take strong note on the extra tanks. Often during the breeding and fry raising the parents can kill each other or the fry. Not always and not always the same with every pair (even in the same species), but it happens more often than not. I have 1 pair that do not need to be seperated throughout the entire process. All others have had to have intervention, and then there are the ones that didn't make it...

If your looking into apisto's that need the tannic acids in the tank, wood is a must. Other things that can help are oak leaves, indian almond leaves (kepatang), coconut shells and peat moss.

Useful surfaces for fry to feed off are moss - java being the more commonly found and cheaper but all will suffice. Freshwater seaweed (Hassles occassionally has some trimmings - otherwise near impossible to find). My fry eat off the coconut shells (remove most of the husk before putting in tank) which also double as the breeding caves of my choice. You can find coconuts on sale at about $3 each and each can be split in half to make 2 caves. Very affordable and very functional in an apisto tank.

Hope to hear some good news about the setup being set up :lol: It sounds like a dream!!!

Wed May 26, 2010, 04:55 AM

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 05:00 AM

These is my bitaeniata tank at 1mnth and 6mnths. I've labelled them and it's pretty self explainatory :)

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 05:06 AM

Actually, ADA aquasoil contains ammonia and is able to complete a fishless cycle. My 7ft tank was cycled using only aquasoil to complete the task. No other source of ammonia was used, although it was helped along with a seeded filter.

Really TW?!!! Well I learn something new every day. Perhaps I should RTFM every now and then :P Does it continually release ammonia into the water or is it purposely set up to only release for a short amount of time to help a cycle?

Vspec

Wed May 26, 2010, 05:32 AM

wow, i indeed stand corrected on the chlorimine front, ive painted it with the same brush & both you guys are correct. Can i blame it on being real early in the morning, or can i happily just chew on my humble pie..lol

I new they made the switch to stave the carcinogenic effects when in travel with organics, however due to my general use of RO water, I've side swiped one of "the" fundamentals and assumed immunity incorrectly. Im not one for giving out bad advice, so my apologies for that!
sweet, im loving it. 2 bullet stop sentences that stop you in your tracks and force you to rethink. See this is why i love the interaction & the forums.

*in edit, guys for gents- realised im talking to females as well sorry*

Vspec

Wed May 26, 2010, 05:34 AM

wow, i indeed stand corrected on the chlorimine front, ive painted it with the same brush & both you gents are correct. Can i blame it on being real early in the morning, or can i happily just chew on my humble pie..lol

I new they made the switch to stave the carcinogenic effects when in travel with organics, however due to my general use of RO water, I've side swiped one of "the" fundamentals and assumed immunity incorrectly. Im not one for giving out bad advice, so my apologies for that!
sweet, im loving it. 2 bullet stop sentences that stop you in your tracks and force you to rethink. See this is why i love the interaction & the forums.

Just as a side note though, nothing is immune, everything including chlorimine has a half life. Its just a sh^t load more stable as you said!

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 06:05 AM

chew the humble pie Vspec... we've all been there, myself especially :lol:

swampy1972

Wed May 26, 2010, 06:28 AM

Yeah thats a good start indeed.
In the pictures, the plumbing could definitely do with a clean up. although its someone's DIY, so its worth a few beers in celebration at any rate.

Straight standpipes like that are a pain,, let alone in a display. they sound like a toilet flushing 24/7. not to mention its difficult to save guard your animals from the "Express Elevator of H.E.L.L" :)

In this shot, the bottom two are drilled at the back. If this was the flavour of the month, id do all of them like that, with a 'coast to coast' running along the back.

My bad, I should have included in the detail about the setup. :oops:
They're not quite complete, hence the untidy plumbing. The final pics of it have it all neatly tucked away. Each tank can be isolated from the system for QT or treatment by a simple tap. He uses mini sprinkler pipe from Bunnings for the plumbing to save $$.
The stand pipes in these tanks are dual purpose. Because they're for Discus they also serve as a spawning site. Agreed, they are loud but these are kept in his garage so I don't think it's an issue for him. I'm with you in terms of having overflows as per the lower tanks. My current setup is done like that and they work well, saves space on the tank also.
He discussed putting a foam 'sock' over the top of the stand pipes when fry were present to prevent the 'elevator to hell' effect, which could also be done if the rear mounted oveflow was used.
Hope this clears some things up. ;)

Vspec

Wed May 26, 2010, 07:13 AM

I like you people.

Previously Ive never been one for home cooking, always been hanging with the Americans or Europeans as thats where quality consistent development happens - but im liking the change. Its a surprisingly good eye opener being here. Being so integrated in marine keeping, especially in the last decade, i'm starting to drop the concrete confines & realising there is actually multiple ways of doing business that exist for a legitimate reason.

I look forward to mixing it with you well into the future.

jluna

Wed May 26, 2010, 11:16 AM

my two cents worth -

been keeping fish for 35 years, apistos for 10. i have ada soil in two tanks, natural gravel in another. all tanks get 30-40% water changes per week. i use tap water with prime. all tanks are heavily planted. i use film cannisters glued to rocks and buried in the substrate for breeding caves, plus lots of driftwood, rocks etc. i believe in stability foremost and don't add anything unless the situation is dire, and then melafix is my first choice. my fish die of old age, mostly, although of course there is the odd accident/illness. i am a strident culler of sick fish (dithers more than feature fish) because i know if that fish showed its belly like that in the wild it would be a kingfisher snack in seconds.

current apistos: bitaeniata, cacs, agassizi, and baenschi.

also-hads: panduro, hongsloi, macmasterii, nijsseni

here's pics of my setups

steph

Wed May 26, 2010, 11:19 AM

those tanks are tops justin.

i love the little baenschi in the middle pic :)

Steph

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 11:41 AM

Good eyes Steph - I was looking closer to the substrate for a fish!

Vspec

Wed May 26, 2010, 06:12 PM

first of all, this is turning into a great thread. plenty of great info with plenty of variation.

secondly it kinda seems some have adverse thoughts in regards to sumping! admittedly if you have loads in series, then it can pose a potential problem, however in my experience more often than not potential symptoms occur well within QT time frames.
im also interest in some funky explanations to typical funky problems if its a major issue.

worst case situation having a sump, you have to treat that too, but its pro's always outweigh the cons. Containment should never be the lingering focus to not explore the benefits, preventative measures as best you can at the start are. Im certainly joining in here with an open mind on as much as i can, however It still seems the freshwater crew are still hugging to 80's mentalities & somewhat picking the easiest route.

thirdly, i hope no-one practices a full cycle using animals in this day & age. Its just barbaric.

Forthly - thanks for the eye candy & detailed continued explanation folks. This is all great stuff.

& finally, illusn, regardless what the content is, if we've never met before, maybe next time drop in a civil hello somewhere in the sentence yeah!

gingerbeer01

Wed May 26, 2010, 08:56 PM

[quote="Vspec"]secondly it kinda seems some have adverse thoughts in regards to sumping! admittedly if you have loads in series, then it can pose a potential problem, however in my experience more often than not potential symptoms occur well within QT time frames.
im also interest in some funky explanations to typical funky problems if its a major issue.

worst case situation having a sump, you have to treat that too, but its pro's always outweigh the cons. Containment should never be the lingering focus to not explore the benefits, preventative measures as best you can at the start are. Im certainly joining in here with an open mind on as much as i can, however It still seems the freshwater crew are still hugging to 80's mentalities & somewhat picking the easiest route.

quote]

TB does not express itself within a reasonable time frame to quarantine.

I have also had the mystery black spot disease - seems to be two types IMO. Some people have it and all there fish get black spots, some people's fish die. May be viral - claimed to rely on non-water bound host for full life cycle.

The harsh reality is when it comes to apistogramma illness we do not have the medicines available to fight many of the problems. Drugs reportedly exist for TB overseas - don't know if they work cause we can't buy them.

Additionally we do not even know what is causing some of the problems. How are you going to treat something without meds or knowing what it is?

I don't think I'll just treat the illness if I run a sump is a viable answer.

More sensible would be a discussion of running UV filter on return and ensuring no possiblity of cross contamination - all pipe to run direct to sump. I have spoken to one store that showed me his sump system that had some serious chemical filteration (I didn't really understand what he was on about due to my 80's menatility - or it could have been what he was smoking - but at least he offered to share)

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 10:18 PM

I don't know if I've missed something here but one of the main problems you 'may' face with connecting all tanks to a joint sump is that not all apisto's require the same conditions. It would be hard to keep and breed both cacatuoides and elizabethae for example in the same water conditions. One or both would not breed successfully, at the very least of problems. I'm not against the whole sump thing, I think it is quite an ideal fish keeping solution. I do however think that you may need to break it up a bit more so there are more sumps and less tanks per sump. This would help contain any outbreak and allow for different water params.

Rod

Wed May 26, 2010, 11:15 PM

I'm with kristina....

Not all apisto are equal.....some are black water some white water

If you are breeding Mbuna/Tangs bristlenose....Yeh sump it
they all need the same water chemistry and general are kept in high stocking levels

A pair of apisto's in a 2ft tank don't need a sump....even if you have a dozen tanks.....much better to have sponge filters and the fry can feed on the infusoria that grow on the surface of the sponge.

Apisto's need high water quality....not high water turnover

Forget high turnover filtration.....slow sponges are more efficient
It is better to do more frequent water changes and clean the sponges at each change(take the garbage out twice a week not once every 6 months)
use snails to clean up uneaten food....not a 10 times turnover filtration

Lots of people start in this hobby keeping Rift lake cichlids....some move to marines.....and when you are ready to be serious you get into soft water fish. :wink: :D

Marines and Rift lake cichlids live in hard alkaline water.....Ammonia is toxic and with marines so is nitrate
Soft water fish generally prefer soft acid water....ammonia becomes much less toxic ammonium and bacteria don't do as well in acid water
(that is why I believe you will have less bacterial infection with apisto's in water conditions they prefer....in harder/more alkaline water the Good and bad bacteria are in greater abundance

If you want to keep apisto's.....study the fish you keep....unlike marines/tangs/mbuna there is no "one cap fits all!"

ps...I don't like uv filters....I understand their use in commercial situations to keep livestock alive for sale($$$$$).....but I prefer my fish to toughen up and let them develop a healthy immune system.....part of the problem with kids today is we raise them in sterile conditions and their immune system doesn't develop properly....this applies to fish too...IMO

kristina

Wed May 26, 2010, 11:54 PM

I agree with you Rod most of the way there but I think a sump setup is great for apistos if done properly. Slower water movement by slowing down turnover from sump is much better than avoiding a sump altogether and throwing in a sponge filter. You will end up with better water quality and the abiliy to move fish around without acclimatization dramas. Much more functionality IMO. You are right though in saying that you can't treat apistos like you would treat full sized hard water cichlids as they are simply different fish with different needs.

swampy1972

Thu May 27, 2010, 12:06 AM

Sumps don't necessarily need to be high turn over. The rate of turn over is simply dictated by the size of your pump. Many very experienced and successful Discus keepers use sumps, and these fish too require soft, acidic water with very little current - just like Apisto's. In fact, many people on this forum keep them together as tank mates which is where I first saw them.
There is evidence to suggest that flow rates can get too high depending on the filter media and sump design and not allow sufficient contact time for the bacteria to do their work.
When you think of it, a submerged sump is no different to a canister filter except it offers far more media volume, and a trickle filter type sump has the extra advantage of aerating your return water.
At the end of the day, people will always have their personal preference in equipment. For example, I still have an UG filter an a 2ft cube (how 80's :P ) that's doing well for me because I maintain it correctly. That's what's so good about this hobby I suppose.

Swampy ;)

Rod

Thu May 27, 2010, 01:24 AM

I look at filtration this way....

You are removing solid waste and rubbish from the tank.....

Lets compare a
Box filter
Canister
Sump

Progressively less maintenance.....because you have a bigger container to hold the crap in

I'd rather have a plastic bag(box filter) for rubbish in my kitchen that I remove to the (external)bin each day.....
A canister would be like having the wheelie bin in the kitchen
that you remove weekly
A sump is like having a Garbage truck
that you remove every 6 months

Remember...even though a canister and sump are external to a tank....all the water is still passing over all the rubbish contained in those vessels

I wouldn't like to live with anything else other than the first solution....
Yes.....more work emptying the rubbish every day....but a nicer place to live

I treat my apisto's the same... :wink:

IMO sumps aren't "Better" filtration....they are EASIER....because you don't remove the garbage as often

Lots of rare exotic "wild caught" fish were breed successfully 50% years ago when state of the art was.....air driven HOB

steph

Thu May 27, 2010, 01:53 AM

I do love all Robs garbage bins however at the end of the day, Apistos come from a range of very different rivers and a variety of water requirements. The low pH high tannins required for some absolutely will not suit the white or clear water species. eg: A huascar require a pH below 5 but zero tannins. D. filamentosa, ph <5, black black water. Most cacatoides, line bred aggies ph 6.5-7, moderate hardness is fine. A borelli like cooler water, blue+ rams like hot water - the variations are endless.

You can not do this on a sump.

I would also go larger tanks with higher density of fish as smaller tanks are far less stable, and fluctuate more rapidly. have a read of www.dwarfcichlid.com, inparticular his husbandry articles - this guy fills his tanks with plants and then large numbers of fish.

cheers

Steph

swampy1972

Thu May 27, 2010, 02:18 AM

I see what you're saying Rod, and in many ways you are correct when speaking to someone that doesn't maintain their sump. Like any filtration, if they're not maintained they're going to cause problems.

If you look at the make up of a sump, the first stage on a fresh water system is mechanical filtration (the 'wheelie bin') that is easily removed and either cleaned or replaced. The rest is a massive volume of varying types of biological filtration, much more than any other type of filter which is what allows for the less labour intensive maintenance regime. That said, your analogy only works if the mechanical filtration isn't maintained - laziness. I know that I personally clean mine every week when I do a water change and replace it monthy and I know many that do the same. Add that to the massive amount of bio' flitration in the subsequent chambers and I'd argue that it's far more efficient than many sponge filters working together. Also bare in mind that sumps are generally used on large volume tanks/setups where a sponge filter wouldn't be appropriate.

You're dead right about fry grazing on sponge filters though and that's why I also have a sponge filter in each of my tanks. ;)

You're last line sums it up Rod, I agree. What we're discussing is changing technology and the opinons of each. As I said previously, I'm keeping some CRS and some Dwarf cichlids successfully (at the moment at least) in a 2ft cube with little more than an old UG filter, airpump and good water maintenance, yet I have a large volume setup running happily on a sump. I've also kept the same 2ft cube with a breeding pair of Discus using only a sponge filter. All are effective so long as your water maintenance regime is appropriate.

Kristina's and Steph's comment about differing conditions is spot on. I would never suggest a 'one size fits all' approach. The benefit of the small rack setup I posted as an example is that you want to keep different species you can effectively set them up as different types of water columns and stock them accordingly - does that make sense??
For example, if you wanted to keep African Cichlids and Discus, one rack would be running hard alkaline conditions, the other would be soft acidic independant of each other. So you can have ideal conditions for both with a minimum of fuss. Sump filtration on this is purely personal preference. If you chose to keep each tank separately with just a sponge filter then that's the perogative of the individual. Personally, I find it easier to maintain large volume tanks as Steph suggests as they're inherintly more stable.

These ideas won't work for everyone, but it's another option for Vpsec to consider when he sets up.

I hope you put together a journal of your experience doing your new tank Vspec. I think it will make for an interesting read.

Cheers,

Swampy ;)

jluna

Thu May 27, 2010, 02:26 AM

hey kristina, i like your tank too! i'd plant around the coconut shell for more privacy...

and steph, yeah, he's a cutie - must have been great husbandry! i've sent you a pm.

this is a good thread, and i agree that seeing a journal of vspec's project would be fab, tho i'll be very envious of so many tanks...

steph

Thu May 27, 2010, 03:47 AM

this is a good thread, and i agree that seeing a journal of vspec's project would be fab, tho i'll be very envious of so many tanks...

me too, and I wish my husband would build me 14ft of tanks ;) instead of trying to put angels in with my baenschi!

Steph

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 05:55 AM

see, this is what i miss, good quality talk & banter. Drop of controversy never goes astray ether. Good work guys

Im loving all these different view points. Its also kinda like an insight of your own respective journeys in this field.

ok so on the topic of diseases, firstly, i might do some proper research here. Just to get far better acquainted with what is known in the field. These reference material manuals ive been advised on, one would assume they also make detailed reference?

TB or mycobacterium marinum (hope i spelt that right) in that context prob should be considered as a stand alone from the QT time-frame symptoms perspective if thats the case, but like anything, its potentially treatable just like our TB. - drug & a vitamin supplement spanning the course.

I don't know if I've missed something here but one of the main problems you 'may' face with connecting all tanks to a joint sump is that not all apisto's require the same conditions

This and further posts down the line, all relate to the exact same thing.
And its an incredibly accurate response!
From what this threads content is portraying, yes there are cases when a single well thought out tank can cater exclusively, however (in an ideal aquarium world) most would like to potentially see 3 tanks per breeding set. & thats not even taking into account of perpetual breeding desires.
Of course, this is mainly focusing on the breeding aspect of the hobby.
The sump overall concept however is not.

In a world where standard 2fters cost about $40, (retail crooks aside) with a little know how & a fist full of fittings, you can link the same conditions together hence turning any potential limitations into an overall win.
Its not a notion thats hard to get your head around, connecting a sump and hence its design principles can be as difficult or as simple as one chooses to make it. Your the painter on those choices, you decide the canvas all the way through to how the picture flows.

Sumps where designed for a few things.

A) It increases your water capacity & hence stability

B) Its a place to hide all your gear that would otherwise be in the display. Visual and safety benefits (no more slow cooking fry or fish that may hang around a in-tank heater..ect)

C) If you baffle where the water dumps in, its a logical detritus pit that captures anything swept into the water column. Sponges or filter socks connected to the dump pipes, or plain old sucking it off the floor are all part of the trapping possibilities.

D) Ensures you have peak gas exchange rates, both by surface skimming contaminants from the display & airating the water during its travel through the sump

E) Provides space for extra biological real-estate potentials, running passive or active applications like carbon matrix or any other coined term items or reactors, or even the deployment of a beneficial Refugeium

F) Maintains a constant water level in the display tank.

G) Equilibrium principles, adding anything to your tank, be it water top off or conditioners, ect ect anything relating has a far greater chance of reaching an equilibrium before it hits the DT. Once again, with ease, going that extra step for your animals interests.

......and the list goes on. Its no harder than popping the lid off a canister filter of washing or squeezing a sponge filter to maintain ether. Using your garbage analogy Rod, regardless of size, shape or colour of a sump, your the garbo, you deciede how & when its done. Just because its bigger doesn't dictate an assumption standard maintenance routines fall by the way side!

Regarding actual tank flow and water flow rates as others have mentioned doesn't have to be quick or direct ether. If your breeding you dont need it to be correct, so you provide only enough for what you need.

Lots of people start in this hobby keeping Rift lake cichlids....some move to marines.....and when you are ready to be serious you get into soft water fish

This is the best statement ive heard all week. Thanks for the laugh bud!!

Of course i'll be putting a tank journey up on the boards guys. Thats what we're here for yeah, to share our experiences. Im looking forward to it.
Besides not doing anything without researching, I've also got plenty of projects on the go at the moment, so it might take alittle longer than usual. Hopefully not to long though!!

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:18 AM

Speaking of side project, to which there are a few... frog/terrarium tanks, vegi gardens, breeding stations..:) will it ever end!!

Im still currently working on a new power cube. Im a weird one, wasn't content with standard power boards & sockets, i just had to push the envelope & build my own. Sit back, put your finger on the scroll button as i bring you up to date...

People, ........**cue drums**

Welcome to the next generation in powering solutions.

Lovingly known as the Vspec PowerCube V1.3

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040130.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040128.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040114.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040123.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040125.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030583.jpg

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:21 AM

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030581.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030582.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030593.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030596.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040113.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/martydoingsomeactualwork.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040122.jpg

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:26 AM

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040120.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040115.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040117.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040137.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040133.jpg

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http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040119.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040124.jpg

swampy1972

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:34 AM

Nice joinery work.. a man after my own heart!

Very good summary on the sump also Vspec. I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of both the power cube and your aquarium.

Swampy ;)

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:40 AM

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040155.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040151.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040153.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040154.jpg

And currently your all up to speed.
My mate is a spray painter, so its due to receive some sweet colours as soon as he gets a chance to paint it. It will have a clear Perspex case the opposite of the outset design, which will sit flush with the switches. The powerrails will be lit up by an LED array. This i can also to DIY with little trouble.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030746.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1030807.jpg

It will probably be seated in a rail at the base of the pyramid at this stage.

I currently have two timer units, these are sweet units, you can run museums off them .
The switches are also top notch & there to control everything (thank you captain obvious!!!)

The are also blue rimmed LED. & when its lit by a pre-set combination ege, turns on when the switch is pushed, 100% on, ect ect, looks spectacular. actually, give me a sec, i'll find a pic to show this too!

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 06:44 AM

ok here we are. Imagine that x12. Nice!

http://saturnshop.com.au/images/dimmer.jpg

All for the love of the aquariums people! :D

Rod

Thu May 27, 2010, 11:35 AM

To me sumping a bank of apisto tanks
is like owning a 8 seat V8 4x4.....
when
you don't tow a boat or caravan
you don't ever go off road
and you never have more than 2 people in the car.....
you don't own it because you NEED it....You own it because you WANT it.

I know and agree sumps have their place....(just not in MY place)

They provide a fabulous solution for

A huge community tank
A huge tank buster tank
A breeding/grow out set up for
Discus
Mbuna
Tangs
Large central Americans....even
Guppies/Goldfish
A large Marine show tank that you want cram full of beasties to look at
or
A shop full of tanks you want to cram full of fish to sell

Way to Go!

but

A bank of 2 ft tanks each containing a pair of apisto's then.....What the?

Be warned!!!!
There is always a New specie available that needs a different setup....and whilst you don't NEED another specie....you will WANT it

Sumping apisto tanks makes no sense.....but lots of things others do makes no sense to me....and no doubt visa versa!!!

Perhaps I'm wrong... :wink:
but I wont be sumping my apisto tanks anytime soon.... :lol:

Really nice switches .... :wink:

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 01:40 PM

Im never going to seduce you to the dark side am I Rod. :)

Your sticking to your guns based on your reasoning & I respect that.

Thats what its all about bud, viewing the entire scope available & seeing what works for you. You've picked a path that works and your doing it- period!!

Speaking for myself, i'll potentially try every way if i could, building something, working something out is the best way to trully understand it in my book.
It never helps when my personality doesn't cater for the too permanent, I live somewhere in Grey territory I guess - constantly changing directions and consistently thinking up ever more stranger & beautiful examples to push the frontiers of design blended with what ever hobby or passions ive got going at the time. I just cant help myself.

But Im the type that loves pushing the boundaries. Paradoxicly I love it when something does my head in and presents a challenge. Like this pyramid for example, I slept through geometry & algebra at school, so working it out from scratch was the biggest head %$^& & the greatest excitement. Certainly glad ive got a great misses that just rolls her eyes when i get in those building moods. lol

Another example is quite recently, the misses brought home these fish, she also mentioned somewhere along the line she's interested in cascade tanks, so consequently the minds already spooling ideas for this project. This is the reason im absorbing the How's and more importantly the Why's of peoples systems. Its all adds the end effect of how to adapt it!

Vspec

Thu May 27, 2010, 01:55 PM

Nice joinery work.. a man after my own heart!

Very good summary on the sump also Vspec. I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of both the power cube and your aquarium.

Swampy ;)

Thanks bud. as am I with your project

didn't even see your post there, it was in between mine

swampy1972

Thu May 27, 2010, 02:17 PM

Rod,

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea of using a sump. I'm just giving Vspec some info as requested. Not even specifically aimed at Apistos really.
It works for me because I own a single species setup with around 400lt so I only have to establish a single type of water column.
You're dead right about keeping a bank of single 2ft tanks. Doing it this way maintains the ultimate flexibility. Chose any fish you want and tailor one little tank to keep it. What ever works for you.
The next project I'm planning for the end of the year is in the order of 1000lt in a 6x2.5x2.5 planted Discus display tank. So again, a sump works for me there. I plan to have Apistos in that tank also, but only those suitable for the Discus specific water column so I don't stress them. I guess you could say I'll need the V8 4x4 to filter that one ;)
While I'm at it, can anyone advise me which are the easiest, least aggressive Apistos to keep suited to soft 28'C, Ph 6.5 water as Discus tank mates?

Here's the current setup. Home made by me with two 4ft tanks on a common sump (without media in this shot).

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/swampy1972/Aquarium%20photos/DSC01361.jpg
http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/swampy1972/Aquarium%20photos/DSC01367.jpg

kristina

Thu May 27, 2010, 09:31 PM

Jluna - the opening of the coconut cave faces the back and is quite well surrounded by plants. I have been thinking of planting an anubias on the top but never got around to it. The clump of moss quite easily attaches to the coconut until I rip it off to clean it :P and whatever is left has started to slowly cover the surface. Hassles is having quite a bit of trouble breeding bitaeniata and believes it unattainable in a 2ft tank. Mine is a 75L AR510, shorter than 2ft but has the depth and height to make up for it. I must be doing something right with the environment.

Swampy - how funny you say that, I've got a 6 x 2.5 x 3 discus display that is in a shocking state right now as we prepare to plant it. Take my advice, if you are going to have apistos in with the discus don't get bloody pairs! All males or all females. When mine bred they caused too many problems for the discus and I eventually gave them their own tank. I've got it running a 5ft sump and I don't have any problems. Just to tease a little, our next project is a 10ft. Not sure if were gonna leave it as is or divide it into multiple breeders... But ooooohh 10ft. Just looking at it written down makes me nervous and excited!

swampy1972

Fri May 28, 2010, 01:18 AM

WOW... for both tanks! How do you go lighting the current tank? Is it 2.5 or 3ft deep?
I wanted to grow some carpeting plants like HC so I have 3 150W metal halides for the extra penetration to the floor. The heat they develop will also help with water temp.
I've been warned previously about getting same sex groups due fighting so now I'm :? and why I've asked if there are any relatively placid strains of Apisto when kept as a single pair. Are your issues because you have several pairs in the same tank?
Final question..where did you get the 6ft tank as I'm still looking for a good supplier?
Cheers ;)

Fri May 28, 2010, 01:53 AM

[Really TW?!!! Well I learn something new every day. Perhaps I should RTFM every now and then :P Does it continually release ammonia into the water or is it purposely set up to only release for a short amount of time to help a cycle? Only releases ammonia during the initial weeks. Other than in discussions on forums etc, don't think you'll find anything written about this

kristina

Fri May 28, 2010, 01:57 AM

Ooops amends here... 6 x 2.5 x 2 - not 3!! Sorry. 2.5 deep, and we do just fine with T5's lighting. We aren't serious planters and so whatever doesn't survive doesn't get put back in or accomodated for. We haven't got plants in there yet, but we had some in pots before we started pulling things out for the rescape.

I had a trio of cacatuoides in there. Even a trio with the space of a 6ft gave the discus trouble!! One female cac has dissapeared and the other female and male were moved to their own 4ft.

As for the tank purchase, we do quite a bit of work for an aquarium in the Sutherland shire. The tank was payment for part of that work. Great workmanship I must admit but if your looking for a bargain don't ask, and I won't tell you - you'll have a heart attack! Steph recently mentioned to me how good st George were with her tank purchase. I reckon the real delight is in the cabinet. My cousin made his own and it looks bloody awesome!! But he's a carpenter so he made it out of spare bits and pieces.

swampy1972

Fri May 28, 2010, 02:06 AM

Thanks Kristina,
That sounds like a good arrangement, now if only I could find an aquarium to help out... :D
$$ aren't really the issue.. I also used to be a cabinet maker and made the setup above over a couple of weekends from left overs at my mates workshop. It does the job for now but I have big plans for the next one (let's hope I can make it live up to my own expectations) so the tank has to well made as it's going to be part of the feature.
Maybe you could PM me the details of the aquarium and I could take it from there

Vspec

Fri May 28, 2010, 04:02 AM

Swampy good effort on the tanks bud. High intakes, high outputs in ratio to the sump & the plumbings clean. Laminated wood, http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/281/3/3/Pointing_Smiley_by_thejagman22.gif you stole those bits off your grandmother didn't you..lol

If you lived in melb i could set you up with my builder, but unfortunately dont know anyone in syd.

Trickle filters in my circles is not deployed, due to being too overly efficient. Leaving nitrate out in the cold. I know you guys have plants & rely on water changes, however im interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

Vspec

Fri May 28, 2010, 04:04 AM

Fri May 28, 2010, 04:19 AM

I built a timber 3 level 4 ft tank rack. Bottom level houses an empty sump (complete with media) that has never been put into action. Next level has 1 x 3ft tank and 1 x 1ft.

The next level has 2 x 2ft tanks. Plumbing was bought including shut off taps, so that during QT each tank could be taken off system.

Then I had a very scary fish disease run wild through my tanks. 18 discus got sick. 3 survived, 15 died. The 3 survivors live in isolation in the 3ft tank on the rack. I do not trust those 3 survivors not to be carriers and now I will never connect up the sump - at least not while they are still living.

There are lots of benefits in having a system running on a sump. I saw it as a cost saver regarding energy consumption. If I had room (or management approved it) I'd get myself a completly separate tank, well away from the sumped system, for the survivors. But I don't have room or approval to do that.

So, I'd only do a sumped system if I still had the capacty to separately house fish that I felt were permanently unable to be mixed with healthy stock. Sometimes I wish these fish didn't survive, but they did.

Just my thoughts.

Fri May 28, 2010, 04:25 AM

testing of my own tank, followed by reseaching to try & understand what my own test kit was telling me.

Ok, the research wasn't very scientific. I talked to other planted tank hobbyists via forums, as well as searching through older threads, on the various planted tank forums out there on the net.

I thought it was pretty handy, but think they should put something on the packaging. In my 7ft tank, with no fish in it, the ammonia was high. If I had chosen to do my cycle using fish, I think they would have suffered even more than would do normally.

Luckily, I only had plants in the tank so no harm was done. I just kept testing the tank & watching the results until the cycle was completed and then I added my fish gradually.

swampy1972

Fri May 28, 2010, 04:29 AM

That's a shame TW. I think I read your thread about that issue. It sounds like you tried everything possible.
That's why I have my little 2ft cube on a simple little stand. It sits in the corner out of everyones' way, and when the realestate agent comes to visit a couple of well placed table clothes etc make it look like a corner table :wink:

Vspec

Fri May 28, 2010, 07:17 AM

Just to tease a little, our next project is a 10ft. Not sure if were gonna leave it as is or divide it into multiple breeders... But ooooohh 10ft. Just looking at it written down makes me nervous and excited!

oh yeah, a 10footer would be a sweet project. kudos. tad expensive when you start creeping up on the volumes though.
if you do divide it, do you tend to go with clear glass, frosted or tinted?
Just wondering if they can see each-other, it effects the spawn in any way.

TW, even without the sump active, thats a serious effort you got going.
Tough break on your issue though. Maybe in future things will change freeing more options up for you.

kristina

Sat May 29, 2010, 09:15 AM

Vspec - not sure if we will allow for visibility or not yet should we choose to divide it. If we divide we will be actively breeding discus not apistos to help support our habit. We already have a few breeding pairs that we have not given the right conditions to breed in. We have had a few spawns despite our efforts but fry never survived more than 3 days freeswimming due to tank setup and other occupants. If we don't divide it we will have a monster tank either marine with stingrays/shark or freshwater with arowana. These are all theories we are debating but until we figure out how to transport the darn thing here we ain't doin nothin!! Anyone got any ideas how to move a 10ft tank?? Anyone willing to help? Hahaha. I know I don't want to put my hand up too quick and it's gunna be my tank!

Vspec

Sat May 29, 2010, 10:05 AM

whats the other dimensions?

You can fit 8ft ok inside one of those urban vans, i did it myself. If your planning on moving bigger, say in this case with a 10, you can hire a 2tonner on a car licence, so thats no worries there ether. Its prob $80smacko's for half the day give or take. If your having it built, get them to build & sort it out, ether they transport it to your joint, or better still, ask them to make it on site. Most of the good builders can just get a delivery of glass to your place & all they need is to bring the silicon & pre-set jigs.

swampy1972

Sat May 29, 2010, 10:38 AM

Anyone got any ideas how to move a 10ft tank?? Anyone willing to help? Hahaha. I know I don't want to put my hand up too quick and it's gunna be my tank!

I would have the stand in place ready to recieve the tank then hire a small removalist company (many now do work by the hour for small jobs like this) to do the heavy lifting and put it on the stand.
The benefit being that for the money, if they damage anything (your tank, the stand, your walls) their insurance covers it.

Vspec

Sat May 29, 2010, 01:57 PM

If you go big with fresh water or marine, and cant find your exacting specimen - im selling my last mangrove jack to someone who knows how to look after it if your interested.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040004.jpg

kristina

Mon May 31, 2010, 06:40 AM

Well here's the fun part - it's a second hand tank that's currently setup. They can't keep up the maintenance for it anymore (understandable) and they're giving it away. Tank, stand, sump with media, heaters, lights and protein skimmer. Not a bad score eh?! It just rules out having it built here or delivered as part of the deal. We want it, we go get it. And to be honest a free 10ft tank...? Yeah Id say it's worth it!

kristina

Mon May 31, 2010, 06:43 AM

Vspec - I appreciate the offer but were not into fish such as your mangrove Jack. We would be the wrong people to take him by far - but I'm sure he'll taste delicious :P

swampy1972

Mon May 31, 2010, 06:59 AM

kristina

Mon May 31, 2010, 11:34 AM

I'm not sure if I'm more afraid of the maintenance involved or Hassles' boot up my backside if I turn down a free 10ft tank! I'll definitely keep everyone updated.

Vspec

Mon May 31, 2010, 11:59 AM

Not a bad score??? , that an orsome deal.

No stress on the mangrove, I want to downsize, so thats the only reason id consider offloading. Or else id always have one in the family.

mcloughlin2

Mon May 31, 2010, 12:26 PM

I have six feet of wall space at the moment that I'm considering getting a rack system made to fit. Rack would accomodate six 2 foot tanks (600x300x300mm) with the possibility of some 300x300x300 tanks. I would like the system to be ran off a sump due to the possibility of this being a marine breeding setup in the future.

System objectives would be a low energy, visually appealing and most importantly near silent - am I kidding myself about it being silent? I don't mind trickling water, I wouldn't be in this game if I couldn't take it but I couldn't stand loud noises. How quiet can such a system be? I have ruled out a air driven system as it would be too noisy.

swampy1972

Mon May 31, 2010, 12:37 PM

Have a look at the pic of the rack I posted in the earlier pages. You could make it more appealing if you put more effort into the rack.
You could make it very quiet by using a submerged sump rather than a wet/dry sump with a good quality pump. I've found the cheaper ones to quite loud.
Have the inlet plumbing just below the surface so you get no splashing noise there. The returns can be easily modified so they don't gurgle either.
The main noise you'll get would be from the return plumbing but since Apistos like low current, the flow rate won't be significant.

Vspec

Mon May 31, 2010, 12:38 PM

There are only a handful of marine fish species that breed in captivity, let alone smaller environments bud. Things like clowns & cardinals ect are the logical choice for fish. Corals or critters would be the exception to that rule.

If your after quite, then pick from a handful of submerged dump pipes. As mentioned, the durso is tried & proven for me for longer than i can remember, however there are other options available.
Quietness is also dictated by the fall distance & the zone where it actually hits the sump water surface. However once again, you can take steps to limit this.

When you say low energy, can you expand on this, what are you thinking

mcloughlin2

Mon May 31, 2010, 10:48 PM

Marine fish species I'd like to try my hand at breeding are smaller varieties. Dottybacks, firefish and cardinals would be the main three. Not interested in clowns, they are already bred in large enough numbers to support the hobby. Also interested in breeding shrimps with the main being peppermint shrimp, hence the 30cm cubes.

Low energy system for me is simple - something that does not use much electricity. I'll go back and read this thread again and have a look at the durso design properly.

Noddy65

Tue Jun 01, 2010, 12:16 AM

Check out the link to this fishroom

http://tropheusfanatics.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=6466&hl=

Mike

Vspec

Thu Jun 03, 2010, 12:54 PM

Ok, so in a bid to explore the core principles of each respective environment I plan to keep, ive been doing some research. Cause clearly there are differences as reflected in peoples practices, however (I mean no offence people), I wasn't really getting to the backbone of Why through discussion.

Im a massive supporter of biologic conformity by default, & assist in maximising its potentials at every turn. Thats clearly visible in alot of my responses. However over the last few weeks, ive really been questioning what effect im used to seeing & replicating, really has in the acidic branch of the hobby.

Please read the below article which time permits and report back. I think this may actually answer those questions effectively.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/nitcyc.shtml

Then after this, given the above highlights regarding acid environments and its standing in nitrification - id like to visit the follow on backbone of plants in this environment, potassium nitrate dosing, the whole nine yards..

Vspec

Mon Jun 07, 2010, 08:12 AM

Ok, so a few more elements lining up.

The power cube has been painted, & awaiting a tip to a custom perspex company near me to complete a see-through casing with the opposite design . Besides the components going back in & the wiring, this will then complete the structure. I hooked up some LED's as a test at the base of the pyramid shining up towards the top - oh yeah...it visually rocks!

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040154.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040366.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040120.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040367.jpg

Im also well under way with my terrestrial planted terrarium, this is a test bed so far, to see what works, what doesn't & to iron out any bugs in the redesign. This is a new venture for me, never kept one before, so im learning quickly.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040368.jpg

Ive spoken to my tank builder today regarding two 4x3x2.5 tanks for the appisto tanks.
The terrarium is 2.5ft high, so with those other tanks each side of it, with this one on the angle facing the observer as a point will look sweet.

Ive shelved the 8fter at this point, with the view to run the two tanks, with an overflow that takes over the waterfall duties of each side. Flow doesn't have to be strong, as its a dedicated environment with dwarfs in mind. Not to mention any beneficial soft water splash droplets from the waterfalls will be soaked up (& loving you for it) by the plants as a duel purpose.

The terrarium will have two logical halves of channelling. Keeping the two water courses distinct, flowing around the trailing edge & channelling each side of a divider back through the middle (false floor on top for plants to grow) to mini submerged durso's section at the rear.
This then dumps to the final catchment sump where the bulk clean up crew will be housed. Its kinda difficult to explain, however if i go ahead with it, all will become apparent soon enough.

kristina

Mon Jun 07, 2010, 11:45 AM

Ok the power cube looks great!!! I know I'm gunna seem a bit slow but... what is it's purpose??

The terrarium looks fantastic for a first time. Id add some anubias with the roots in the water. They are an aquatic plant that produce the most gorgeous flowers when grown above water in a terrarium environment. Really really nice plant... And available at almost all aquariums.

Vspec

Mon Jun 07, 2010, 08:44 PM

Basicly every component that requires electricity will be plugged into the back & i'll be able to control them via the LED switches. On board timing units is self explanatory & extra space has been given in case i want to add-on anything else like temp displays ect ect.

The rest is what you wouldn't normally see, the wiring and such, all mixed into a new funky way of thinking - a device that performs a main role, yet wont allow itself to be tucked out of site :)

Yep, its not bad. The glass is from my tank builder, but built everything else, including the background. anubis sounds like a go. Thanks for that!

Vspec

Thu Jun 10, 2010, 02:33 AM

Are we all abit busy guys?

No-one is going to post a view on the biological finer points of acid environments.?

kristina

Thu Jun 10, 2010, 03:40 AM

well to be honest I got about half way through and just couldnt keep up with the scientific jargon - I'm a mum who loves apistogramma - thats all. I know how to keep them and provide a more than suitable environment for them. Ask a simple question and your more likely to get a simple answer Vspec, ask something a bit more complicated then give us homework and your not likely to have many answers. There are admittedly folk on here that can keep up with what that link is talking about and if your lucky they will see the post and put their 2cents in. I'm not one of them (don't tell my husband, I have him thinking I know everything).

steph

Thu Jun 10, 2010, 06:50 AM

Horrendously busy, eg i have 4 work projects that all came off the back burner at the same time and now have the same end date!!

I did read the article (very quickly) and it was very very interesting. There things in there that I didnt know, in particular the fact that plants will uptake ammonia/ammonium over nitrate which indicates to me that in a very acidic tank that plants are an absolute must, and lots of them. I think I need another re-read and a bit more digestion time.

I already knew that in acidic environments that ammonia converts to ammonium and I subscribe to the fish acclimitisation theory/process of temperature only, and I never mix tank water into a bag. Basically if the fish has been in the bag for a while there is a chance the pH has dropped thus converting the ammonia in the bag to ammonium and hence less toxic to the fish, when you then add tank water of a higher pH into the bag the ammonium gets released as ammonia and the fish can end up being exposed to ammonia and serious gill dmg.

steph

Rod

Fri Jun 11, 2010, 12:31 AM

The skepticalaquarist site is a very very Good resource for fish keeping

You will note in your research lots of apisto's are found in water devoid of aquatic plants......however what happens is they go through a Dry season and a wet season

in the wet season the forest is flooded....terrestrial plants become semi aquatic
and in the dry the water recedes leaving small stream full of leaves that are highly acidic

I'd suggest in aquaria it is better to focus on the water hardness rather than acidity......

Yes the nitrogen cycle is totally different in highly acidic water.....but so is plant growth

This is where the dilemma comes......you need to decide
Do you want a planted tank....with apisto's in it
Do you want a specie specific tank that has plants in it
Or Do you want a Apisto biotope tank and aren't concerned about plants

There are species that will work for each tank.....but it is not like Tangs/mbuna.....one cap fits all

That's why I like apisto's.....they are a thinking persons fish
You can't assume that concepts used for keeping "common" aquarium fish will work.....Do that and they wont be around long.....get it right and they are real Jewels
They aren't a difficult fish.....IF you understand their needs and provide them

Vspec

Thu Jun 17, 2010, 08:24 PM

hmmm, my last post is missing?

steph

Thu Jun 17, 2010, 10:47 PM

possibly related to the disk crash, usually in these sort of situations the backup copy may not be exactly up to date with the produciton copy, depends on how they replicate the data and when.

steph

Vspec

Fri Jun 18, 2010, 04:25 AM

yeah its possible. No stress, just have to rewrite it at some stage.
Hopefully i can offload the mangrove this week to a mate, so this should free up some realestate to tinker & refine the process, then create a master piece worthy of my attention :)

Hassles

Sun Jun 20, 2010, 11:08 AM

Methodologies, Principles, Criteria & 10 Cents Worth.

Methodologies, Principles & Criteria?

Simple. Ascertain what specie of fish you wish to keep and provide the environment conducive to its wellbeing.

How does one provide the environment? In any number of ways which finds some semblance of balance within the realms of ones psychological existence.

A stand-alone 2 foot tank is no less appropriate than a multi tiered rack with sump filtration. An arrival by foot is no less appropriate than an arrival by bicycle when the arrival is the intention of the exercise undertaken.

A multi-tiered rack with sump filtration is great for Apistogramma if you keep an array of Apistogramma requiring identical water parameters, exercise appropriate quarantine methods and are prepared for the 'worst case scenario'. The standard two-foot tank is great for (many) Apistogramma if you are prepared to compensate for the limitations of such aquaria. A Fluval filter is no less appropriate than an Eheim filter and a Coopers Sparkling Ale is no less appropriate a beer than an Emu Larger. We have more than a few good beers, more than a few good filters and more than a few good means of providing a required environment for our fish. Personally? I walk, use Fluvals, drink Coopers and employ stand-alone tanks.

If you have a 300 litre aquarium, you need 300 watts of heating. Do you employ a 300 watt heater or 2 x 150 watt heaters? If the thermostat of a 300 watt heater fails the heater is going to do a lot of damage and quickly. If the heater fails the tank will go cold. If you employed two 150 watt heaters, a failed thermostat will do less damage and over a longer period while a failed 150 watt heater would be partially compensated for by the other 150 watt heater. Different horses for different courses.

take care

Vspec

Sun Jun 20, 2010, 11:06 PM

Elegantly put hassles. Welcome back.

Hassles

Mon Jun 21, 2010, 11:38 AM

Elegantly put hassles. Welcome back.

it's good to be back and nice to welcomed home - hello to everybody :D

I wandered through a wonderful hothouse in the botanic gardens of Krakow (Poland) with huge lilly pads. I noted the water was full of tropical fish, among other things, guppies. I kinda lost interest after that :wink:

take care

PS: they have a lot of good beer in Poland heh heh heh, so much in fact that I am on-the-wagon, well for the time being anyway.

Vspec

Mon Jun 21, 2010, 11:48 AM

Yeah it seems the Czech, Polish & Germans have a knack for brewing.

How was the dumplings & pollution?

Vspec

Mon Jun 21, 2010, 01:16 PM

Ok so ive read the entire thread again armed with the acid background info of 'Why'. This in effect helps considerably with both understanding the environment, & in respect to here - a new level of perspective in which to understand your aquatic mentalities. Thank you all for contributing guys. Its been a pleasure exploring your personal interests.

As ive previously stated somewhere recently, we've decided to expand the breeding capabilities and observational study of apisto's in our home. This is relatively cheap as pretty much all the existing components are plucked from the spare parts room i like to call the Abyss.

We've both got respective tanks chosen as a 2nd round strategic platform. My partner is running a 36x20x20' and ive chosen a 2ftcubed. With the 8ft planter still the communal hub. Which unexpectedly ive noticed a great deal of them indeed enjoy abit of current produced by a wave generator.

I'll leave her to run to her own devices, which is both dangerous :) & exciting, so i'll be an observer also, which leaves me to mine.

As mentioned above, ive taken the info on board & applying simple solutions that i will test first hand along the way.
As much as it almost killed me, im declining to sump the main with wide gauge plumbing for slow dull flow at this stage, with a focus on Environment instead & the actual act of Fry Raising.

Ive used no less than 40kg of sand easy which the misses thinks im nuts for, however im blending everything in my knowledgeable arsenal here. This time round Im not content recreating a picturesque environment for frontal show. Im stepping off the track in order to find my own.
:wink:

See you on the other side.

Rod

Mon Jun 21, 2010, 09:38 PM

Hey....I could be wrong....but

40kg of sand in a 600 cube......
100mm deep?

Trying salt water concepts in soft acid water???
Looking for anaerobic bacteria?

There is a reason why they have deep sand in a refugium and not in the main tank in salt water..... :wink:

Vspec

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 12:12 AM

keep going, your only up to 4 inches so far if your thinking a flat surface.

The bacteria metabolisms slows the more the ph drops, which couple that with plants scavenging nutrients and your thinking it doesn't make sense right. Trust me, no harm will come of it. Im planning on topping up the 8ft in parts with alittle bit, however most i'll still retain. Better to have it & not need it, than need it & to not have it. Plus it creates depth of scene whilst still bringing the animals closer to me.

Im not having a go, however im interested in your reasoning why you say they have deep sand beds in the refugee instead of the display. If we're talking marine & its a bed im after, id have personal preference levels of sand in both of the above, and, a dedicated remote sand bed system. But thats just me.

Rod

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 07:59 AM

My understanding is deep sand substrates are used in refugium to encourage anaerobic bacteria growth deep in the substrate to reduce nitrate......but they can produce hydrogen sulphide which can poison fish

I wouldn't have substrate deeper than 50mm in a main tank

My guess....but what's your thinking???

I tend to use fine sand substrate and plants that don't need to be rooted in substrate.....water sprite,java moss,java fern,riccia,anubias,duckweed and Lucky bamboo

Vspec

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:15 AM

Deep sand bed can be used anywhere. marine has faster water movement among other things, so this is not a problem unless you get a potential build up in a closed environment, eg closed cabinet ect. the rotten egg smell is a dead give away anyways.
Although lets look at it from a logical perspective bud. A captive marine reef lets say have massive load, the plethora of inputs has to be balanced, where as 2 fish with potential fry will not. Not to mention if you we're talking apples for apples, plants in these terms is your single biggest environmental tool, with impeded bacterial functions as your safety fence. Its not meant to be viewed as swatting a mosquito with a cannon ball, its just the beginnings of my alternative testing blending the elements.

gingerbeer01

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:53 AM

Rod

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:54 AM

Whilst I'm not sure what you are saying....no doubt you understand your intentions....Have Fun!!!

ps.....my biggest environmental tool isn't plants or bacteria........it is 30% weekly water changes..... :wink:

Hassles

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 10:14 AM

Good luck with that - there have been lots of records ofproblems on various boards with DSB in freshwater. I know the value of them is SW but that is different.

I am seriously getting the impression you do not want to listen to what anyone suggests - and just want to do it your way. That is fine but just know that Rod, Hassles and Steph know more about keeping Apistos happy than anyone in Oz. That is all.

Personally I reckon your own name needs adding to this list of yours and Noddy65 has more than a little knowledge / experience and Apistoguy is having a wonderful run of successes at present so in the near future his name will need adding also. hmm, we 'ought to start a political party and we'll kidnapp Th0mas and keep him as a mascot - wat-ya-reckon? heh heh heh

Vspec

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 01:58 PM

I am seriously getting the impression you do not want to listen to what anyone suggests - and just want to do it your way. That is fine but just know that Rod, Hassles and Steph know more about keeping Apistos happy than anyone in Oz. That is all.

Bud dont assume total corruption just yet & paint me with that brush completely. Currently as it stands i have a 2ft tank & an 8ft tank currently running combinations of all your common suggestions, not to mention the basics of fresh water keeping.
Everything is running exactly how it should, however expansion is needed to fulfil a more stable environment & perfect the process from fry to adulthood as alot of you have done.

This normal route, im leaving to the misses. She is performing the ways many of you have put forth as the roadmap. I'm personally happy she is doing this, as i get to see first hand how to "simply" succeed based on previous observation & replication. I personally have nothing against that route, except for a previously mentioned comment that alot still seems to be focused on 80's tried & proven mentalities. enough said...!

Me on the other, ive got the balls to push the envelope & push well past where many of you will sadly never go.

Like anything, failure shapes just as much as success. However Im still bringing a fair chunk of knowledge to the table to avoid logical pitfalls. On the specific subject at hand, I too have read many tales of catastrophe with DSB in FW. Ive gone from the lame BS anecdotal random posters observations to following what science tells us between the specific relationships. As with any subject, there is always a For & Against camp, with opinions & statements a mile long. At some point youve got to pick an adaptable side based on your own belief system that is carved by active research. This is what i do. I dont know everything, & dont claim to, but im sure as sh^t not sitting on my hands.

Im happy to discuss the finer points of sulfate to sulfide and deadly pockets of anaerobic or anoxic unknowns till the cows come home. Cause if you have something new to share then of course, you have my complete attention.

My stand I believe is a logical one. I believe plant roots punch into these zones and given the oxygen & bacteria they bring with, they convert potential sulfide buildups back down into usable building block elements for the plants. Even if plant roots are taken from the equation, the process of diffusion into the higher levels would eventually do the same. Nuff Nuff status is awarded to those whom uproot their bed every couple of weeks cause once again, logically thats asking for trouble.

Given the bacterial metabolisms are slower in acidic environments to begin with, then common sense also points to a reasoning why inclusion of plants in a said environment is beneficial. Just to clear the air also, Water changes are not down played in my book, just environmental factors has always taken my primary focus. Taking the time to understanding the 'why' behind it always curves to success better than say some monkey with a water bucket & mixing spoon.

On the flip side though, too much abundance of anything can cause an issue regardless of environment. so in this regard whether it be stunted plant growth or something worst, once again, you assess it on a case by case basis. So by believing in the above and assessing it from my perspective - it all starts & finishes with moderately light bio loads at best anyways. So yeah, im doing it my own way, with logic as my guide.

Did this adequately state my position?

swampy1972

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 03:19 PM

I am seriously getting the impression you do not want to listen to what anyone suggests - and just want to do it your way. That is fine but just know that Rod, Hassles and Steph know more about keeping Apistos happy than anyone in Oz. That is all.

+1.!

More importantly, I can't help but feel that you're deliberately going out of your way to psuedo controversial to inflate your own ego. You pose a question, people with the know how answer it and you respond with:

This normal route, im leaving to the misses. She is performing the ways many of you have put forth as the roadmap. I'm personally happy she is doing this, as i get to see first hand how to "simply" succeed based on previous observation & replication. I personally have nothing against that route, except for a previously mentioned comment that alot still seems to be focused on 80's tried & proven mentalities. enough said...!

Me on the other, ive got the balls to push the envelope & push well past where many of you will sadly never go.

The two character flaws I dislike the most, rudeness and pretence. :evil:

If you see venturing out into the 'aquatic unknown' as 'ballsy' and 'cutting edge' and see the assistance offered to you by these generous people as '80's mentality' then do us all a favour and ponder your own 'awesomeness' elsewhere and save us listening to your pretentious dribble. If you truely want to be taken seriuously, do a serious study into whatever it is you're trying to acheive, have it published and earn the credibility these members already have by their years of experience.

I apologise to any DF users my rant may have offended. I'm tired of seeing your generosity being challenged by someone that obviously considers himself above you all and is being deliberately contrary for the 'sport' of it. :roll:

Rod

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 10:46 PM

The same names seem to be on a number of forums....all talking the same language....sharing ideas/concepts/experience....some times speaking French to Chinaman just doesn't get the message across....that's ok....I've been shown to be wrong before

As far as getting it "out there"

I must say Japes' biotope tanks have impressed me......
I have been doing my own fiddling and believe that some apisto's like an environment that is so soft/acid that plant life is not supported.....and I've been in the heavily planted camp for a long long time

I can't say I fully understand why or the chemistry involved.....but results so far are noticable and it has changed how I keep many species....particularly "wild" caught fish

We might not agree with each other but if we share the Good and the Bad hopefully we can all keep learning

Vspec

Tue Jun 22, 2010, 11:48 PM

swampy, wow , down boy.

Im above no-one brother.
I was also under the impression this is what adult conversation is all about.
I push the envelope because that's how things are discovered - pure & simple. Once again just to clarify for those that seem to be tripping on it, i have taken all the advice on board, & have thanked those whom contributed.

Im honest in my responses & genuinely want to advance my own understanding. If my habit pushing what’s stereotypically conventional or against the grain is too much for you, don’t bother joining in bud.

It couldn't be any simpler than that.

We might not agree with each other but if we share the Good and the Bad hopefully we can all keep learning

couldn't agree more!~

swampy1972

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 04:27 AM

except for a previously mentioned comment that alot still seems to be focused on 80's tried & proven mentalities. enough said...!

Me on the other, ive got the balls to push the envelope & push well past where many of you will sadly never go.

Do you still think you don't come across as egotistical?

If my habit pushing what’s stereotypically conventional or against the grain is too much for you, don’t bother joining in bud.

Strangley enough, things become conventional because they're proven to be successful over a generations of fish keepers. Yet from your previous responses you want to deliberately stay away from convention - your call, and all power to you, but don't hack on the people that have tried to help you with their '80's methods'. Your responses in the quotes above are childish and far removed from 'adult conversation'..

It's along way from being too much for me, instead it's just become a bore .. YAWN :roll:

Vspec

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 06:48 AM

No i dont believe its egotistical, ego's got nothing to do with it. Im blunt with a side order of "tell it how I see it". Im still respectful.

There is a big difference!.

Im not hacking on anyone ether dude, In fact where the #%$^ do you get off passing judgement. im one for my own advancement and understanding, so sue me. Your done a 180 in the last few weeks & now we seem to have an issue.

How do you suppose we bury the hatchet??

Hassles

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 06:56 AM

There has always been those among us who appear to have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding. These people will push the envelope (to coin the phrase being used here) and learn just as much from their failures and they will from their successes. Many of us are happy to learn from others while many of us 'need' to learn through experience. One can attain a sence of achievement through success while avoiding convention. Its also nice being an individual rather than a replica of our neighbours.

A few years ago I established 4 foot planted tank and did no water changes for over six months and I still had no nitrates. Fish were breeding, shrimp were breeding and plants were going nutso and absorbing the nitrates. I received my fair share of uncomplimentary messages and criticism from those who could not comprehend the existence of such an artificial environment - which is what our aquariums are. My proof however was in the pudding to coin another phrase. I did this maninly becuase "just about everyone" said that it was not possible. Renown aquatic expert / scientist Dianna Walstad also has tanks that have twice yearly water changes and the only other water added is to compensate for evaporation. Nobody challenges Dianna, her reputation is as well established as the respect she receives.

To express a few personal points, the depth of sand quoted will be an issue due to compaction. Plants don't successfully root in sand longterm and the risk of their roots rotting, due to circulation and oxygen shortage, is real. Taking the path you've suggested will require more work than is necessary in my opinion but....I suggest you keep an elaborate journal, with frequent entries and share with us all your experiences.

all the best and take care

Vspec

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 07:06 AM

You redefine cool hassles. Your wording is light yet direct. I respect that.

and yep, potential guidance with your above stated issues i'll review & redefine my approach.

Thanks

swampy1972

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 01:02 PM

No i dont believe its egotistical, ego's got nothing to do with it. Im blunt with a side order of "tell it how I see it". Im still respectful.

I hardly think saying people are conformist, stuck in the 80's mentality etc, etc is respectful.

You pride yourself on being blunt and direct, yet when a serve of directness is aimed yourway you take issue. Funny... :?

You're right to offer praise to Hassles and the way his responses are written. So thankyou for proving my point. Direct statements can be made in such a way as to not demeaning to those offering the info you requested.

Im not hacking on anyone ether dude,

Really?? See above.. :?

In fact where the #%$^ do you get off passing judgement. im one for my own advancement and understanding, so sue me. Your done a 180 in the last few weeks & now we seem to have an issue.

My issue is with your tone, again, see above. At no time have I suggested that fresh thinking is to be avoided. If that were true, we'd still be living in a darkened cave dreaming of a phenomenon called fire. But belittling members for sticking with tried and true methods annoys me.

If you wish to go off on another line of expletives I suggest you do it by PM so as not to degrade the tone of the forum. I think you'll find me accomodating ;)

How do you suppose we bury the hatchet??

if you don't like a response given to you in 'adult conversation, ignore it. That's what adults do.

To Hassles:
Never let it be said I believe there's not room for change, learning and a thirst for info. In fact, I'm one of those people - as demonstrated by the ridiculous amount of time I spend pouring through this and other forums looking for info.
I applaud people that seek new information and ideas and are willing to take risks to test it, for without them, nothing would change.

swampy1972

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 01:09 PM

No i dont believe its egotistical, ego's got nothing to do with it. Im blunt with a side order of "tell it how I see it". Im still respectful.

I hardly think saying people are conformist, stuck in the 80's mentality etc, etc is respectful.

You pride yourself on being blunt and direct, yet when a serve of directness is aimed yourway you take issue. Funny... :?

You're right to offer praise to Hassles and the way his responses are written. So thankyou for proving my point. Direct statements can be made in such a way as to not be demeaning to those offering the info you requested.

Im not hacking on anyone ether dude,

Really?? See above.. :?

In fact where the #%$^ do you get off passing judgement. im one for my own advancement and understanding, so sue me. Your done a 180 in the last few weeks & now we seem to have an issue.

My issue is with your tone. Again, see above. I work in the military, so I unfortunately know a thing or two about being blunt and direct. But there's a fine line between being that and being rude and I think you've crossed it at times, whether you agree or not.
At no time have I suggested that fresh thinking is to be avoided. If that were true, we'd still be living in a darkened cave dreaming of a phenomenon called fire. But belittling members for sticking with tried and true methods annoys me.

If you wish to go off on another line of expletives I suggest you do it by PM so as not to degrade the tone of the forum. I think you'll find me accomodating ;)

How do you suppose we bury the hatchet??

If you don't like a response/opinion given to you in 'adult conversation', ignore it. That's what adults do.

To Hassles:
Never let it be said I believe there's not room for change, learning and a thirst for info. In fact, I'm one of those people - as demonstrated by the ridiculous amount of time I spend pouring through this and other forums looking for info. I applaud people that seek new information and ideas and are willing to take risks to test it, for without them nothing would change.

Vspec

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 08:19 PM

You keep harping on about my comment of the 80's.

The difference is swampy, using that comment, thats an observation bud, your turning your arguments personal.

Now you can ether accept my appologies for rubbing you the wrong way in anyway so we can move forward, or deal with my directness when i tell you to sod off.

Its up to you bud.

Rod

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 09:02 PM

Personally......I use concepts I learned when I first kept fish

IN THE 60's...... :lol:

before all the crap being marketed now.....box filters work!!!

Vspec

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 10:48 PM

ah...nothing like abit of banter to make life interesting!!

Yeah, I’ll agree simple works. I’ve never personally used one before, yet ive just seen one clear a sand storm in the misses tank in a day.

Rod, im interested in your previous comments where you mentioned you’ve been tinkering. Where the environment is so soft plant life is devoid. You interested in expanding on this & the species your keeping with it?

Hassles, im starting to ramp up the specifics of your response, compaction and diffusion im aware of, however I need to explore plant choices, both wild vs. captive characteristics, strengths vs. weakness of biotype environments, plant anchorage & how to assist growth potentials, and the decay processes in acidic bed environments

swampy1972

Wed Jun 23, 2010, 11:38 PM

Vspec

Thu Jun 24, 2010, 12:54 AM

you cant help yourself can you. I dont expect to see your inputs in future

Rod

Thu Jun 24, 2010, 01:22 AM

OK
This is a long story.....
I've always liked West African dwarfs....in particular P taeniatus
I have a mate who owns a shop....and he always stocked them when available and I'd buy a pair.....but I never had any success keeping them alive.....and I tried and tried and failed....every time I walked into his shop there was batter about how many taeniatus I had killed!!!
It was getting very embarrassing

Eventually I set up a tank that was heavily planted.....no gravel and very soft water....90% rainwater....."voila" they bred and I still have their descendants

That got me thinking How some species don't just need softer water.....they need really soft water

I also keep "Wild" dwarf bettas......I was breeding them in a heavily planted tank with soft water and set up a growout tank with peat substrate and ketapang leaves and I added some plants......as I was reading about the very soft acidic conditions in the wild

I travel away for a week at a time on business......when I got back from a business trip this growout tank was very dark brown water and all the plants had disappeared......I thought pH crash and assumed all fish would be dead....but they were hiding in the peat and colours/deportment was fantastic!!!

I saw Japes was setting up some biotope tanks for apisto's with little planting and fine sand and ketapang leaves......

I set up a couple of tanks like this(NOT to his high display quality) .....with very soft water(95% rainwater)

I have Apistogramma sp abacaxis and taeniacara candidi in these set ups
abacaxis have spawned and are raising fry....
I suspect candidi have spawned but no fry as yet

In time this will be my standard setup for breeding/display of soft water fish

I rabbit on (on more than one forum) about the importance of soft water
I still have lots of plants in most of my setups.....particularly display and growout tanks.....but there are alternate solutions.... :wink:

I believe with some species very soft acid water not only makes breeding easier it significantly extends their life span......bacteria that causes internal infections(which seemed to be the main cause of death before I took this approach) just doesn't seem to exist in these conditions!!!
I maybe dreaming but I believe aggression between the sexes has greatly reduced also....although this may just be female hiding under leaves rather than behind plants???

Hassles

Thu Jun 24, 2010, 02:54 AM

Personally......I use concepts I learned when I first kept fish

IN THE 60's...... :lol:

before all the crap being marketed now.....box filters work!!!

now that reminds me of Ludwig, who's been keeping & breeding Apistos for well over 40 years. In his fihs room (400 tanks) he goit sick and tired of cleaning filters so....he simply stopped using them. He just changed water to keep everything happy.

Vspec

Thu Jun 24, 2010, 02:55 AM

great story. Thanks bud

More questions to follow im sure

Vspec

Fri Jun 25, 2010, 02:27 AM

In conversations here, Japes has come up a few times so far. So I’ve done some searching for Japes on the net as i haven’t come across his endeavors before. Didn't realise he's ozzie, let alone a fellow QLDer.

He's done well with his projects. Blending of the different approaches & tech strengths is nice to see. Focuses on micro managing & stylizing multiple levels simultaneously, which the move into the biotope scene looks to have complimented this approach further.
Word format is standardised and presented well.
It appears the shots of the tanks & livestock are not rushed & catered for accordingly. Without a doubt having a DSLR has become an asset to the format also.

My assumption in his standardisations of elements such as custom black backgrounds & some running gear go alittle further than just preference, besides complimenting or controlling the setting, they would assist in post production for sure.

Kinda got the impression he was rather tight lipped on certain purchases or sources. Being a QLDer myself, I would assume hes got a few wild sites that would provide necessary aquascape within decent driving distances. Keeping LFS purchases purely strategic.

Easily raises the bar overall by maintaining consistently high quality. Backed up with enough knowledge relating to hold his own. Very Impressive. Im thinking I might have a chat. Thanks guys.

Vspec

Sun Jun 27, 2010, 07:01 PM

Ive been doing some further research of late, namely trying to get my head around the shear extensive network of tributaries & river systems that make up the Amazon.

Obviously having species from this region is the reason for the revisit. Far more extensive than i remember from Geography class back at school thats for sure. Truly remarkable actually.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Napocreeks-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/TenaInletStream-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/AmazonWaterfall.jpg

But first lets define some terms.

Tributary:
A tributary or affluent is a stream or river which flows into a main stem (or parent) river. A tributary does not flow directly into a sea, ocean, or lake. Tributaries and the mainstem river serve to drain the surrounding drainage basin of its surface water and groundwater by leading the water out into an ocean or some other large body of water.

River:
A river is a natural watercourse, usually freshwater, flowing toward an ocean, a lake, a sea, or another river. Small rivers may also be called by several other names, including stream, creek, brook, rivulet, and rill; there is no general rule that defines what can be called a river.

Thank you Wiki!

Now from what ive researched & seen so far, its basicly broken down into a few distinct (albeit complex) sections.

The Upper Amazon
The Flood Planes / River Basin
The River Main / River Mouth into the Atlantic

I've started at the perceived source and working my way down. Each leg of the journey ive tried to source as much information relating.

So far this is what ive researched, and happy to give the 30cent visual tour.
If you'd like to comment or join in, please feel free.

Most of the starting activity seems to originate from both Peru & Ecuador. That ultimately converge from both north & south into the main rivers of the Maranon & the River Amazon. Ive referenced google earth plenty through this exercise to physically grid as much as could, its personally helped immensely.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/UpperDrainOrigins-1.jpg

As you can see, the system is quite extensive.
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Amazonrivernetwork.jpg

Looking at the two points of origin.

First there's Nevado Mismi located in the Peruvian Andes.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/NevadoMismiAnglePan-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/NevadoMismiPeak-1.jpg

The sources tribute is recognised by this lonely wooden cross.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/NevadoMismiWoodernCross-1.jpg

The other main source originates from the Ecuador Mountains.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/EcuadorMountains.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/EcuadorWaterFlow.jpg

Now thats the easy part, now comes time to investigate the other bulk channels that feed the Amazon. To which its kinda freaky that there are over 1000 tributaries alone.

So far im up to 12 rivers :) So still a long way to go.....

The below (in no particular order) is the name & snap shot of what they look like.

Napo River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/NapoRiver-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Napocreek-1.jpg

Morona River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/MoronaRiver-1.jpg

Pastaza River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/PastazaRiver-1.jpg

Nucuray River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/NucurayRiver-1.jpg

Urituyacu River i couldn't find any reference

Chambrira River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/ChambiraRiver.jpg

Tigre River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Tigre-river-1.jpg

Nanay River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Nanay-river-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Nanayriver2-1.jpg

Huallaga river

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/HuallagaRiverOverhead.jpg

Ucayali River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/UcuyaliRiver-1.jpg

And finally to wrap it up for today, the two main rivers

Maranon River

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/MaranonRiver.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Maranonriveroverhead-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/maranonriver2-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/MaranonRiver3-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/MARAONRiver1-1.jpg

River Amazon

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/RiverAmazon-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/RiverAmazon2-1.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/Mouthoftheriver-1.jpg

Hope you enjoyed the scenic route. Once i follow the path even further i'll post up what ive got.

steph

Sun Jun 27, 2010, 11:06 PM

HI

There are several good accounts of apisto collecting trips by hobbyists on the net - check out Heiko Bleher's site - although he has a discus focus he does pick up a lot of apistos

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/ - check his expeditions page

and Tom and Martins site

http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?PageId=67

Collecting reports often say apistos were collected from cocha (eg small flood lagoons) the equivalent of oxbow lakes.

IF you cant get a hold of the cichlid atlas 1 by Romer (its out of print and rare as hens teeth) try for a copy of LInke & Staecks "American Cichlids 1 - Dwarf Cichlids: book - its a bit old but still a wealth of info - inparticular they have collecting data for each species and detailed info on each of the main river types eg: black, white and clear

the othe problem is a lot of the commercial collectors do not accurately report where they get teh fish from - if at all or the location is given as the holding station eg Leticia or Iquitos - makes it very hard to identify some species or sub species like agassizi.

Cheers

Steph

cheers

steph

Vspec

Mon Jun 28, 2010, 01:05 AM

Hi steph

Yeah ive spoken to the misses about getting the romers. That is definately on my dance card, ive just had so much literature to go through i haven't got to it yet. I think she has a lead on where to get a copy.

So it has all this info in it?

Thanks for the links, i'll go through them soon

briztoon

Mon Jun 28, 2010, 03:14 AM

I know for a fact just about everything for japes tanks come from one tiny LFS. Well, when I say everything, I mean fish, wood, leaves etc. I think everyone knows which LFS I am talking about. Japes has no secret collecting sites.

Vspec

Mon Jun 28, 2010, 03:53 AM

Yeah, it was definately an assumption.

I noticed a few days later he wrote that he buys most things. Im supprised though, Its so easy in qld.

Vspec

Mon Jun 28, 2010, 04:09 AM

I thought this was interesting.

It covers most aspects relating to substrates.

Im interested in hearing opinions if you get the time to read it.

http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

Vspec

Tue Jun 29, 2010, 03:06 AM

I managed to check out those links steph - thanks again.

I’m still amazed at some of the documented catchment areas. Is it just me or does it appear in some area's you could go as far to say it would rival a kids wading pool for surface area & flow.

I've still got to further research the decay processes in the acidic environments & its lasting follow on implications. Not to mention known diseases and catalysts, however im initially left wondering it there is a relationship between these types of localised extreme environments and any potential local population pollution that may contribute to a fish having a condition. Or whether it’s something else entirely.

Rod

Tue Jun 29, 2010, 06:27 AM

I often wonder what "snapshot" we get of their biotopes

Collecting is often done in the "Dry" months......water chemistry is taken....but How does it vary over a year???
Perhaps extreme results are the end of the dry season and not the optimum???

What's a normal "wild" life span?
Do they breed all year round?

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of scientific study.....just collect and sell
and we are left to guess what's best

I don't believe there is one solution.....non planted tank maybe indicative of the dry season....planted tank... indicative of wet season flooded forest

Plenty to think about,experiment with,share and learn

Vspec

Tue Jun 29, 2010, 08:41 PM

good call!

Vspec

Wed Jun 30, 2010, 01:28 AM

Im yet to come across anything relating as i haven't searched for it yet, however considering the bulk water comes from the mountains, logic would dictate the water would get progressively softer the further in travel with organics and away from the mineral deposits. What the different regions rock is made of & further more what is contributed in the water course would be interesting to find out. From that I'd be interested in seeing differences in species (if any) and biotopes that are closer to the mountain regions. They could potentially be healthier fish because of the greater abundance of minerals from an osmotical stand point. Just thinking out loud at any rate.

Vspec

Thu Jul 01, 2010, 10:59 PM

Vspec

Tue Jul 06, 2010, 12:35 AM

Well, happy to say the mangrove jack was rehoused with its new owners last night. Will follow up for a house visit tonight to ensure the environment is completely in order, however it seems they are prepared to cater for any needs, which places me at some ease, especially since ive raised it since a baby.

The plus side is now our other projects can finally get a firm hold. Ive been very reluctant to commit to anything lasting till the mangrove was relocated, cause if i couldn't offload him, it had to take priority. Which incidently a fish that large commands massive space by default.

The misses tank is underway, CX01 breeding Station if your interested.
Im due to update it again as realisticly it should be a weekly rountine.
Although somehow i managed a double post listing, so ignore one of them:)

My 2ft cube is still there waiting for my next move, however at this point im planning on using it as my test tank for awhile. Element & DSB testing among other things. I'll place a new Hanna Inst replenishment order soon anyways.

In the meantime, last night i tore down / gutted the the Terrerium V1.1

Currently been working on designing a new amazonian creek paludarium to fill its testing shoes. I believe ive got a decent handle on how to grow captive terrestrial, so its now time to turn up the wick & discover what else can be achieved.
These types of blended environments i seem to enjoy immensly, so im happy to mess about with the smaller stuff for awhile till ive refined the process.
Although its still big enough for testing purposes -2.5ftcubed braceless.

Vspec

Wed Jul 07, 2010, 02:19 AM

Has anyone got any projects, ideas or hobby specifics they would like to delve into &/or share.?

Are people currently trailing quality builds of someone on the net?

Is anyone entering into any competions this year?
I noticed the AGA comp is still open till september

Vspec

Fri Jul 09, 2010, 10:21 AM

The misses brought home the bible tonight, Romers Atlas V1 that you guys recommended. Nice & crisp, even still in plastic. She's good to me!

I shall now retreat to the shadows for awhile :)

Vspec

Tue Jul 13, 2010, 03:03 AM

I've got the overall designs down to a level im happy with, & currently im running/mixing some tests bricks on a dry bank compound for my Amazonian creek paludarium.

Im trying to guage the structual limits of concrete with filler components such as perlite to significantly lighten the mix & hence weight. This will then have to be initial leached, dried & sealed to be effective & deployable.

However i wouldn't mind looking into a foam / inert diy resin alternatives.

anyone got any leads on such things in your aquarium travels?

Vspec

Tue Jul 13, 2010, 07:24 AM

This is the design I seem to be happy with for the time being.
It's just a quick sketch in a Top>Down view. Ive got plenty on the go, however this sum's it up in one shot i guess.
Forgive any graphics bleeding through from the other side. i use the back of free writing pads as they are big to mess about on. You get the idea though.

Green sections are raised islands for planted materials, sloped &/or sculptured banks. With a background green section to blend the wall.

Brown outer perimeter is the existing bonded background, so i'll try to colour match it with the chosen bank colour & use it. Gives the chance to use the waterfall in the top right as flow for the setting.

Blue is the actual creek design (Captain Obvious)

Everything butts up to the glass, so you'll see both dry dock, then the creek as if you spliced a piece of it. Well..... thats the plan anyways

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040420.jpg

This is an old shot of the test tank in case you forgot
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040368.jpg

I'll throw in the brick test i was blabbering on about also.
Just made a few small 20cm plywood cubes to test various compounds.
This is a fresh tab of perlitecrete mix just popped out 20min ago.

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040422.jpg

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww21/veriann/P1040423.jpg

Still working on various ratio's to check for strength & rigidity in a bid to maximise weight saving. However as i said previous, if anyone has some thoughts, id love to hear them.