Tanks of Death

[steph]

hi all

Ive been struggling with my new breeding tanks for a while and have now lost a number of my apistos :(

Basically I was thinking it was water quality but went through a big test today of all tanks and they are all sitting at pH 6.0 and between 5 - 10ppm nitrates. I have bought new little internal filters anyhow and have them running on the tanks.

I had been using plane tree leaves and wonder now if this was a mistake - I never found any information on the 'net of other peoples experience but this is one I have to say may be questionable.

The other thing I found is the little black rubber sucker thing that holds the sponge filter to the wall - when I pulled it off to reposition the filter lots of the black rubber kind of slimed off on my fingers - is this likely to have caused any issues ?

I dont believe its my general maintenance or water supply etc, as I have two grow out tanks of baenschi babies and my main display tank with the adult baenschi and I havent had a single death in these at all. But none of these tanks have leaves or the dodgy sponge filter clips.

Any comments appreciated.

Steph

[Hassles]

hi all

Ive been struggling with my new breeding tanks for a while and have now lost a number of my apistos :(

Basically I was thinking it was water quality but went through a big test today of all tanks and they are all sitting at pH 6.0 and between 5 - 10ppm nitrates. I have bought new little internal filters anyhow and have them running on the tanks.

I had been using plane tree leaves and wonder now if this was a mistake - I never found any information on the 'net of other peoples experience but this is one I have to say may be questionable.

The other thing I found is the little black rubber sucker thing that holds the sponge filter to the wall - when I pulled it off to reposition the filter lots of the black rubber kind of slimed off on my fingers - is this likely to have caused any issues ?

I dont believe its my general maintenance or water supply etc, as I have two grow out tanks of baenschi babies and my main display tank with the adult baenschi and I havent had a single death in these at all. But none of these tanks have leaves or the dodgy sponge filter clips.

Any comments appreciated.

Steph


G'day Steph

You man never diagnose your problems but....when in doubt cut back to basics - remove all the leaves and undertake a water change. Whay substrate are you using ? you will need to question everything including the silicone used to manufacture the tanks.

Nitrates at 10ppm ain't gonna cause the havoc you're experriencing.

I don't know what type oif internal filters you're using but it is generally recommended to wash these well before use.

As for the rubber issue - I can't really see that heing an issue unless the fish digest the tiny remnants.

Are you feeding any liev food and if so what ?

I am happy to assist you replacing your lost fish although I do not have the specuies you are now keeping.

cut back to basics & take care.


regards

Hassles

[gingerbeer01]

Sometimes keeping apistos can be the most frustrating thing to do. It challenges your resolve and mind to try new things to obtain better results.

I am changing all my tanks to sand as I hear from people having better results on sand then gravel.

I agree with Glen - remove those leaves. Is the leaf a sappy leaf? I suspect that the leaf may be the biggest part of the problem.

I would then consider feeds, tank location - how are the fish dieing. Is it all tanks or one tank - maybe there is a strange bug in one tank. With the wild caught fish we get some funky diseases. I have the black thing that took out my abacaxis. (I hate fish sometimes).

Black rubber buildup could be from the feeds - I have heard somewhere - buggered if I remember where. Could also indicate something is in those leaves?

Anyhow change to sand appears to be working for me as my Fresa are happier and seem to be going through breeding - have had eggs but no hatch yet.

Good luck.

[Rod]

Could be the leaves.....???

I've found significant less problems with my "soft water" fish since I adopted the following

Fine sand substrate
Increased % of rainwater.....70%+
Ketapang leaf once a week
Water conditioner that contains tea tree oil for any tapwater
I use Aquasonic ProBac after each water change
I have Malaysian trumpet snails or mystery snails in tanks to clean up uneaten food....

I don't know what of these is working and what isn't....but together I've had what appears better outcomes

Obviously this may need to be varied for "White water" species.....a dose of clay once a month may take the place of the ketapang leaf???

[BigDaddyAdo]

The problem with changing too many thingd at once is that you will never know what the problem was inthe first place.

I would start with the leaves and see how you go from there.

I use sand in all my tanks. I recently rescaped my display tank and thought i would give the sand a really deep vac. I was surprised that there was virtually no waste trapped in it at all. Old Dino Dung was a pain in the rear end though.

[Hassles]

The problem with changing too many thingd at once is that you will never know what the problem was inthe first place.


Ado, I gotta' disagree. The problem with this approach is if you don't hit the nail on the head in the first instance the losses (deaths) will continue. The priority is to stop the losses asap. By cutting back to basics you will either fix the problem or not. If the losses cease you know something was at fault eg: perhaps the leaves. If the losses continue then you know you're dealing with something more sinister.

Once the losses have stopped one could theoretically replace each item one by one and wait for more losses in attempts to determine the cause but.....who would want to? With Apistos, some of these fish only become available once or twice a lifetime and who would want to take the risks?

Steph is facing what I perceive to be a dire situation and faced with such circumstances she needs to do as much as possible as soon as possible - apart from crossing her fingers, chanting the mantra and hoping for the best.

take care

[BigDaddyAdo]

I agree. I would want to sort it out as quickly as possible myself. But I would also like to have some idea what the problem was though so i don't repeat it in the future.

[steph]

Thanks guys all for your replies, as steve said apistos can be soooo frustrating some times. To give you all a run down of my tanks and what I do/have done

Main tank - Jebo r3100 (100x48x 52 cm) contains A. baenschi breeding trio, some dithers (2 black neons, 2 pencilfish, 2 pristella ? tetras) lone A agassizi tefe male and 5 ottos (recent addition)

Sand substrate - I have been using sand in my tanks for about 10 years now. Lots of crypts and wood.
- last death was my female agassizi tefe back at Christmas time while on holidays, she was 2+ years so it could of been age.


all growouts are basically bare bottom, I put a tiny bit of sand to take some of the glare off the bottom and give the babies some thing to hide against/pick thru, floating java fern or lace fern, small chunk of wood.

grow out tank1: mirabella brand (free hand me down tank, 30 litres ?), small internal filter, baenschi fry up to 2 cm - fine and healthy and a couple of ppl who have bought juvies from me say they are strong and happy and growing well.

grow out2: small 18 litre, top filter with wood and anubias, now contains A panduro fry - I put the really little guys in here as its a small bottom area so they have more chance of finding food.

growout3: small tank, sponge filter 3 baenschi fry

I havent had a single death in any of the above tanks.


3 x breeding tanks, 60x30 x30cm, they are in the rank end on which admittedly makes it hard to get to the back of the tanks - all tanks set up the same:

sand substrate, if evenly spread, no more than 1cm thick, several pieces of wood (very well aged) some anubias and lace fern and java fern. 1 - 2 pieces of plain terracotta pots (bought new), sponge filter, plane tree leaves and loquat leaves

water change regime:
All tanks get basically the same, 80% rainwater from the same rainwater tub (its a 240l food grade tub connected to the downpipe), 20% tap treated with prime in bucket - growouts get more tap water as the babies get older. Breeding tanks get ketapang liquid from fishchicks at half dose.

main tank once a week, sometimes once a fortnight
breeding tanks 20% twice a week
growouts about 15 -20% two - three times a week.


first deaths were the A erythrura pair shortly after moving in, possible causes were live bloodworm (my mistake) followed by bacterial infection

A. agassizi alenquer spawned early march, lost entire spawn at 6-7 days free swimming, wondered if it was not enough food, but I think if that was the case they would of died progressively and some would of survived.

A. panduro spawned, fry free swimming 28/3

A . agassizi male died , around anzac day, symptoms breathing heavy, hanging out near surface

A. panduro male (diff tank), similar symptoms, pair moved from their tank to tank that a. erythrura had been in. this had a 100 % water change, and had been vacant for 2+ months. Male died shortly after, female is good.

A. agassizi female dead as of 1/5 - I had originally thought these two had spawned again just after easter as the female was being very secretive but I was mistaken.

A. panduro tank stripped down and 16 fry moved to small growout.- These guys are tiny in comparison to the baenschi fry, but Ive never bred them before so I cant say if this is the norm.

So out of 6 adult fish I have one survivor and 16 fry.

Issues & Conclusions:

-leaves - after 3 months in the tank the leaves were breaking down a bit, I have been reading on these a bit more, and apparently there are a lot of fine hairs on the leaves so I wonder whether as these have broken down the fine hairs have gotten into the fish either digestive tract or gills ?

-uneaten food - i do find feeding just 2 fish in a tank difficult and have been aware of my lack of detrivores in the tanks. the only ones i have considered were either ottos or MTS - shrimp would of been nice but a bit too tasty for the apisto's - but to date i havent added either, really trying to find something that will eat anything except fry!


So far: I have removed all the leaves from the three tanks, and added a small cheap internal filter to each (vitapet). two are now sitting empty and I have the female panduro in one, she looks healthy - has lost her nice brooding yellow, but she is swimming around and acting normal.

What I was planning to do was put something cheap (guppies??) into each of the tanks and let them sit for the next month - partly to keep the filters going and partly to check for general pathogens. I need to add either MTS or otto's as a proper detrivore, but am aware ottos can be delicate and require good algae coverage. I would also like to increase the amount of plants in the tank as I think they assist with water quality/micro organisms and provide some of the hiding places that the leaves did.


steph

[Noddy65]

Hi Steph
Being apistos you MUST consider that TB is the cause. Ive found that fish sourced through LFS will often be carriers (I dont get any fish from my LFS for this very reason, only locally bred or overseas sourced but not from the asian fish farms whcih I think are the worst source of infected fish).
It is very infectious and can move via fish nets
If you have any more deaths you may be able to have a PM done on them (it will cost) or do it yourself. If you see little nodules on the intrnal organs then its very likely TB. if you do a search here I think Ive posted some pics of micrscope lesions in apistos
Clinical signs vary from breathing difficulties, sudden death , bent fish or fish with ulcers/lumps on the scales

There is no cure unfortunately and the bug will live in substrate/on heaters/rocks/plants etc. Even bleach struggles to kill it.

Mike

[Hassles]

For what its worth

I had a Post Mortem performed upon one of my A.trifasciata when I lost them about 18 months ago. The fee was $70 and I came away educated and was happy to have made the investment.

TB is probably the aquarists nightmare to end all nightmares. Rainbowfish can be another supceptible specie and I recall quite a good article about TB in one of the ANGFA newsletters. Possibly search their web pages..

http://forums.angfa.org.au/

[steph]

Thanks for the thoughts Mike, I remember Simon having a run in with TB in his rainbows many years ago, a very unpleasant experience.

I didnt do any investigations with my dead bodies but the only similar symptom is the rapid breathing - which could be associated with anything.

Male panduro had some slight fin rot, one ventral and the back of the dorsal but nothing else.

Last surviving fish the female panduro is still going strong, Ive now put some endlers in the two tanks as 'sacrificial' fish will see how they go over teh next few weeks.

Steph

[steph]

Well I lost my last panduro this morning. Similar symptoms as the others, starts with open mouth and heavy breathing but NOT gasping at the surface (this one confuses me), ventral fins sticking out not clasped, no signs of emaciation so I dont think its TB, stomach possibly slightly distended but not full on dropsy where the scales stick out. This one had the top 'lip' eroded but it was only obvious on death so a very late development. Total time from first symptom to death about 4 days.

Havent been able to get a good id on it at all. THe best I can do is possible gill dmg from some factor, but the fact that if affected two different tanks in a shortish period of time is a mystery

I have emptied my other breeding tanks and have RCS in one and endlers in the other. They have been there over a week now and all looks good. There are several RCS females that have berried since I bought them, which means they moulted with no issues. And the endlers appear to be thriving and I have 6 - 8 small fry that have been born in the last week.

All other tanks are doing good, no other deaths.

Steph

[Hassles]

Well I lost my last panduro this morning. Similar symptoms as the others, starts with open mouth and heavy breathing but NOT gasping at the surface (this one confuses me), ventral fins sticking out not clasped, no signs of emaciation so I dont think its TB, stomach possibly slightly distended but not full on dropsy where the scales stick out. This one had the top 'lip' eroded but it was only obvious on death so a very late development. Total time from first symptom to death about 4 days.

Havent been able to get a good id on it at all. THe best I can do is possible gill dmg from some factor, but the fact that if affected two different tanks in a shortish period of time is a mystery

I have emptied my other breeding tanks and have RCS in one and endlers in the other. They have been there over a week now and all looks good. There are several RCS females that have berried since I bought them, which means they moulted with no issues. And the endlers appear to be thriving and I have 6 - 8 small fry that have been born in the last week.

All other tanks are doing good, no other deaths.

Steph

Steph, I shall re-read this post upon my return from Europe and as I have stated previously, I shall be happy to assist you in replacing your lost fish. I no longer have triple-red cacatuoides as I have off-loaded the last of my colony but the A.abacaxis are growing well since being moved to a grow-out tank. I also have some A.trifasciata pairs and A.gibbiceps pairs. The A.baenschi you already have, the A.masken are doin' OK, just that the parents are tryin' to kill-off the juveniles now that they have spawned again and OH yeah, plenty of A.huascar if you're keen :wink: The A.panduro don't look like spawning anytime soon but if they do you're welcome to some.

take care & all the best and ...thanks for your well wishing re my holiday

[TW]

Steph, such a bummer. Sorry for your losses.



I've found significant less problems with my "soft water" fish since I adopted the following

....... Ketapang leaf once a week .....

Rod, do you just pop one leaf inside the tank, or one leaf inside the filter?

[Rod]

Bummer Steph....

A Hassle(no pun intended) but I'd give that tank a big clean out and start again....

re ketapang.....

I put the leaf in the tank....it floats to start with then sinks to the bottom
Eventually the leaf is eaten by the MTS

The leaves eventually start piling up.....providing hiding spaces and a substrate for infusoria....I like it but it may not be everyone's cup of tea

However sticking the leaf in a filter would work.....provided it 's not full of purigen... :wink:

[TW]

Do you think you would loose benefit if you removed the old leaf weekly, at the same time as you put the new weekly leaf in?

Or would BN's eat the leaf anyway?

[Rod]

Sure some people remove the leaf....that's works
I can't comment on BN's....I don't own any!

I take the approach that is different to many.....I'm not a believer that super clean tank is a healthy tank.....I prefer a more "lived in" space
I aim for a mini ecosystem.....all the critters working together all doing a job.....that's why I have snails,shrimps, leaves and plants in my tanks....even throw in a small piece of clay once a month and tanks go cloudy for a few days.

I also dose tanks with bacteria(ProBac)
bacteria eat decaying leaves,infusoria eat the bacteria,fry eat the infusoria.... :wink:

[TW]

This may not be the right place for, but i would like to understand better about your comment that the rotting leaves turn into a substrate for infusoria. I don't really even understand the term infusoria. I thought I did before reading this, but now I don't think I do understand it at all.

Sorry to clutter up your thread Steph.

[Rod]

Infusoria.....is a collective name for all the little one cell animals that live in nearly every body of water....Amoeba ,paramecium....etc

[steph]

TW: no probs on hijacking, the biggest thing I can take out of it all is learning and the more comments and questions the better.

As Rod said Infusoria is all the tiny micro organisms that fish like apistos feed on, very useful for fry as this is their main food.

Rod: whats probac - Ive never heard of it. I too go for the very "lived in" feel, my main tank has fair amounts of mulm and algae in it and the fish are thriving there. I have never used leaves in it tho. I'm planning to get some ketapang leaves which I will start using once I get another breeding pair. (thx hassles :) Just a matter of being patient now.

Cheers

steph

[Rod]

ProBac is an additive of bacteria manufactured by Aquasonic....http://www.aquasonic.com.au/NewCatalogue/Bacteria_p_24.pdf
I get mine from Clayfield Aquarium

There is another ProBac used in sewerage treatment plants....but I'm told it's a different product

[kristina]

Steph, I'm not sure bacteria colonies are your problem. I use bacteria products when I believe the bacteria colony in the filter is not what it should be. Perhaps when adding a few fish to the aquarium or after a larger than normal water change just to take the edge off... or to help start a cycle even but not as a cure to a problem such as the one your going through.

If it's any consolation my blue ram female is having the same symptoms as your fish were having. Just noticed it today. :( all I can gather for the moment is a parasite attacking the gills. The best guess I can take. Daily water changes, salting tank (small dose) and turning lights off as a precautionary measure or until I get more of an idea whats going on. Lucky for me it's only one tank so far Steph... as Hassles has said previously, your collection will build back up and if I have any fry you are welcome to them :)

[Vspec]

Ok, so i made it to your thread of death. tough break kiddo, i feel for you i really do.


For those whom throw in the eco system talk, thats great, i applaud you 100%, however IMO your wasting your money adding cycle in a can, besides debatable placebo benefits to all but the few whom work in a lab, best leave that practice to your QT.

Mother nature provides all the bacteria you will ever need & without your permission. all you have to do it provide the ideal environment to maximise its potentials.
Nitrate for example, steph has less than an inch, which will contain aerobic strains. If she increased that to 4"+ it would start to produce anaerobic conditions in the deeper regions over time and go along way to processing your trates naturally.

Whilst were on the subject of natural. Rain water seems to be a hot docket item. I personally dont see how. Yeah dont get me wrong, i definitely see the benefits, however in this day & age & anywhere near major populations, i wouldn't even attempt it. You wouldn't get me even sitting on my roof, let alone drinking from it.

Usual dump & run cycles on these units may work for some, however lets get some proper TDS readings happening before blindly believing its inert. You talk about unknown diseases, bird crap for one is enough to scare me, let alone any other number of pollutants.

Hypo salinity solutions may work, however its rough. Not to mention throwing them in the other end of the ph spectrum. Every increment increase would be like a sledge hammer.
Im partial the melafix personally, as melaluca is natures antibiotic, however once again, without having a lead, its all firing in the mist.
You cant effectively treat something that you dont have a lead on. Its always a game of process of elimination.
And as hassle & othes have mentioned, in times like this, back to square one. Dilution is always the Solution.

Sometimes as hassle also mentioned, its worth getting a definitive answer by biting the bullet & coughing up the $$. If it doesn't fit a pattern your aware of, others haven't experienced the same & you continue to experience the same losses, then its logical to get a definitive cause. Ether that or hydrogen peroxide everything and start a fresh.

[Rod]

Just an alternate point of view....based on a fair bit of experience with Fresh water fish....soft water ones in particular

Sometimes bacteria in a "can" can Help....if you have done something inadvertently to kill the current population

I have had great results with probac(now Pro Aid) which was developed to reduce waste/toxins in commercial aquaculture....perhaps it is a "placebo"....but I don't believe so

Nitrate is not a big problem in freshwater tanks....the best way to remove it is by water changes and lots of plants....creating anaerobic conditions in a fish tank carries it's own set of risks

If I lived in Melbourne I wouldn't worry about rainwater....tap water is soft enough.....lots of people breeding apisto's in Tap water in Melbourne
RO is a safer alternative to rainwater but wasteful....
Rainwater from a tank is processed by bacteria cultures in the tank....studies have shown that often rainwater entering tanks doesn't meet standards for drinking water.....but it does out of the tap from the same tank!

Given a choice....with soft water fish....living in Brisbane.
I Happily take the risk with tank water.
Brisbane tap water kills soft water fish....not directly but they become very prone to internal bacterial infections

Ketapang also has anti bacterial properties....and it adds tannic acids to the water

In my experience prevention is a lot lot better than cure......I've never had great(perhaps its more correct to say ANY) success trying to cure disease in soft water fish.....but my current "system" has reduced my moralities greatly.....bird crap in Brisbane must be healthy.... :wink:

[Rod]

Just for the record...

I recently bough a batch of ketapang leaves....some were rather purple

I placed them in the tanks that I used them in...at night

In the morning I noticed my Nanochromis parilus breathing very rapidly and the few endler guppies in there as dither fish were very stressed....closed fins and swimming at the water surface

I removed the leaf and did a 50% water change
That night I did a 90% water change
Then another 50% the next morning.....saved the Nanochromis and lost one female endler...

I believe the ketapang was contaminated....or the purple colour indicated it was picked too early and the leaf contained toxins???
Natural products have their risks!!

[Vspec]

great responses. Im going to like it here alot more :)
Its a far livelier bunch with brains.

[gingerbeer01]

Can you take a picture of the leaf Rod - would be nice to know what to look like - especially as I believe I buy my leaves from the same place as you - bought 2 weekends ago

[kristina]

I will only use leaves that are well and truly dead and dried (not green/purple still at all). I also boil all my leaves in tank-worth water. By this I mean RO or rain water. I haven't tried to boil water with dechlorinating treatments in it before. I suppose it could be done... I do this to make sure anything nasty is dead and gone. Then I add the boiled water to my water barrel so I don't totally waste the tannins that the leaves give off during boiling. I throw the leaves in the tank to add coverage and give off any more tannins they may have left in them.

[Rod]

Here Steve.... :wink:

Purple ketapang
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/A_H_Sprite/Fish%20stuff/ketapangpurple.jpg
Brown ketapang
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/A_H_Sprite/Fish%20stuff/ketapangbrown.jpg
Comparison...Brown Left...Purple Right
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/A_H_Sprite/Fish%20stuff/ketapangbrown-purple.jpg

Not going to use any more of the purple....just to be safe

[kristina]

they look like 2 different tree species altogether!!

[gingerbeer01]

About 1/2 of mine are like that - purple one side, brown the other.

Thanks for the heads up.

[steph]

the pigmentation is different too, very blotchy - either not completely dried before being packed or picked and dried

Kris; thanks for the oak leaves and the cuppa - it was great to see your fish and tanks and the boys had a good time too :)

ciao

Steph

[kristina]

no problemos Steph, it was good to talk to someone who understood me for once!!! I reckon it's gunna be your place next time, I'm eager to see your tanks :)

[steph]

I better clean the glass then ;)

Steph

[FNQ]

the pigmentation is different too, very blotchy - either not completely dried before being packed or picked and dried

Kris; thanks for the oak leaves and the cuppa - it was great to see your fish and tanks and the boys had a good time too :)

ciao

Steph

Hi Steph

They shouldn't be picked from the tree and dried. Normally they should be picked up from under the tree after they have dropped out as the toxic sap withdraws from the leaf before it drops. Purple would indicate they are not fully dried out.

I would also be careful where they have come from. We had a disaster after collecting some from under the local trees in Cairns and found out the council had been spraying weedkiller around them AFTER the fish had died.