Discus fatalities - what tank conditions are best?

[Steve Williams]

Hello,

I have been keeping discus for around 12 months in a planted tank, fertilised regularly and CO2 injection. Unfortunately, over the last couple of months, I have lost many discus - in large numbers initially and then one or 2 per week. I have 3 left, which seem to be doing okay. I can't seem to identify the problem. All the other tankmates (predominantly corys and tetras have been fine).

I take my water down to the LFS each week and they advise me that my parameters are fine - PH of 7.4, no ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. Plants are doing okay. I do 50% water changes weekly.

I have read much and visited many sites and stores, and spoken to breeders. Unfortunately, I get told many things.

The last thing that I have been advised is that if I want to keep discus, I should not have any other fish in the aquarium (ie. not in a community tank), no substrate, no plants and no driftwood. And pH must be below 7.

Is this reasonable to expect? I am tearing my hair out in trying to get things sorted. I want to ensure the fish are healthy and live for longer than a few weeks or months.

Thanks for any advice.

Steve W

[Hollowman]

How big were the fish? do you have photos? How did they die?

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying. I had kept some for almost 12 months - so they were quite large. Others were smaller, about the size of a 50cent piece.

I had a large die-off when I introduced a new discus from a local breeder (now I know the need for a quarantine tank). All fish went dark, clamped fins and seemed to have sheen on their coat. Advised it was velvet. Took them out and put them in a tank with a copper treatment. Lost 10, but 10 survived. After three weeks, I put them back, only for it to develop again. Took them out and put them in a quarantine tank with a salt treatment. Lost a few more. Once they went back in, I have lost around one per week, including new ones that I introduced. This time however, they didn't seem to develop the problems I encountered earlier. Just stopped eating, hid and then died. Its very frustrating.

Steve W

[Hollowman]

Copper can be a very harsh chem to use on discus. I would expect they had caught something from one another, QT is SO important. When you say your fish were quite large, exactly how big, that is why I want photos.

Classically, small fish should never be put in a planted tank. The ones of 50cent size were lambs for the slaughter really. Advice to put them in a bare tank was spot on. A planted tank is only good for large mature fish, not small or juvenile discus.
Keeping discus with other fish is fine, I have wild Scalare (angels) and Cory Sterbai with mine, but there are many fish that will take the high temps that discus require, plants though need to be carefully picked.

What temperature is your tank at ? Also, never rely on your lfs to give you water readings, get your own test kits (liquid ones) and learn about the water yourself. :wink:

H

[Greggy]

From what you describe it sounds like your tank is over crowded and under filtered. This combination will always end in tears for the Discus enthusiast. Can you describe your complete set up to us?

I've found Discus to be tough fish if given good water quality. Mine tolerate Nitrates that sit between 20 and 40ppm (and sometimes higher if I get slack on water changes) but it doesnt seem to bother them at all (its a planted tank). Good diet is also very important when keeping Discus. If you provide poor quality food without much variation you'll have problems.

Cheers

Greggy

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying. Don't have a picture at present that I can post. Tank is 560 litres, and temperature is around 29 degrees.

In relation to ph, my own testing suggests that it is quite stable at around 7.4 - Brisbane tap water. Is there any real need to drop the ph below 7? Or can discus thrive at levels above 7.

Thanks

Steve W

[rex82]

stability steve.....thats all i have to say

[Greggy]

Discus have no problems at all living in high pH water - mine live permanently in pH of almost 8.0 Of course, breeding them in high pH (high hardness) water is another matter.

As I said, Discus are tough fish and they can put up with quite an extreme of physical water water conditions, but you MUST keep NH3 and NO2 levels at ZERO, whilst levels of NO3, dissolved organic compunds and other less desirable things in the water must stay low.

Did you say anywhere what filtration you are using on your 560L tank, or have I missed that post?

Cheers

Greggy

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying. Filter is an AQUIS 2400 canister filter from Aqua One. Claims to be suitable for tanks of up to 800L.

So, if I wanted to start again with smaller bare-bottom tank and feed them up until they are a size that is appropriate to add to a community tank?

Steve W

[Hollowman]

4" SL at least :wink:

[Greggy]

I'm sorry to tell you, but the Aqua One Aquis 2400 series filters are poor performers. Even the newer 2450 model with UV Clarifier isn't really any good. What are they bad? Because there is a significant amount of 'media bypass' where the intake water can find its way to the outlet tube without being exposed to the filter media and benefical bacteria that convert the harmful NH3 and NO2 compounds into less harmful NO3.

For a 560L tank you are VERY under-filtered by using the Aqua One 2400. If you are serious about keeping Discus, you need to get a new filter up and running ASAP.

I strongly suggest you consider an Eheim canister filter, such as the Eheim Classic 2260 (if you have the space) or it's smaller brother the Eheim Classic 2250 if your a little tight on space under the tank (like I am). These are true workhorse filters that in my opinion are still better in design and operation than anything else out on the market. I also believe they are better than Eheim's newer models in terms of filter performance. They may be slightly harder to maintain but they are worth the bother of installing extra quick connect taps etc.

I use 3 canister filters on my 6x2x2 tank (approx 650L) as follows:

1x Eheim 2250 Classic *
1x Eheim 2228 Professional *
1x Eheim 2228 Professional

* Note: These two Eheim canister filters share the same large-bore intake tube and another inlet tube attached to an Eheim surface skimmer also tee's into this large bore tube, but each have their own outlet tubes. Both the 2228 filters exit through spray bars at each end of the tank, the 2250 Classic delivers its filtered water by a hose fitting with no spray bar.

Get your filtration upgraded as soon as possible and you won't look back. As Hollowman states - its hard to over-filter a Discus aquarium :)

Cheers

Greggy

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying. Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back.

I don't doubt your advice on the filtration system, and will most likely go ahead with upgrading. Have you seen a review on the Aqua One that indicates the problem.

The Eheim 2260 is expensive, but a worthwhile investment if it works. Will this filter be adequate on its own for my tank? I note that discus prefer little current, so didn't think that multiple filters would work.

Thanks for replying.

Steve W

[Hollowman]

You may find the eheim 2217 is a cheaper option, also bulletproof.

You are right about discus not liking current flow, but you really need to have more filtration. You can minimise current by using spraybars and/or directing water flow towards the glass, you can even use sponge tubes over the spraybar to disapate current flow, so no excuses :wink:

You can also have several stand alone spong filters running off an air pump to help give extra filtration. Your fish will love you for it, and be far healthier.

:)

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying quickly.

One other thing I note is that there was a reference to eheim filters being difficult to maintain. What does this mean? How often should I clean canister filters?

Thanks

Steve W

[Hollowman]

The only problem I ever found was priming again after maintenance, but it is just a question of filling the hoses properly before you fire it up again, no big deal really.
As for cleaning......it all depends, I use a sponge over the intake which stops food and crap getting into the main body of the filter. If you do this, then it dramatically reduces the need to take the cannister apart. I could go 3-6 months betweem openng the filter up. Just keep an eye on flow rates, if it reduces a lot, then you need to clean. Remember only to clean the sponges inside with tank water, not tap water, you do not want to loose all of your good bacteria.
hth

[Greggy]

The more modern Eheim (professional series and newer) filters are very easy to maintain, its only the Classic series (which in my opinion are the best) which can be a little tricky but nothing too hard once you get the right quick-connect taps to completely detach the canister from the intake/oulet tubes. Have a few practice runs getting them set up, detached & cleaned etc and you'll be ok.

The Eheim 2217 Classc is a VERY good filter, but the 2250 Classic and the 2260 Classic are even better as they hold more filter media, and therefore they are considered more 'powerful' even though the 2250 Classic has a nice and gentle flow rate of just over 1000LPH. The 2260 Classic is the best of all so if you can afford it/fit it then go for that one!

I know the Aqua One 24xx series caniter filters are not very good because I've had an Aqua One 2450 UVC and it is similar in design to the 2400. They allow too much bypass to be considered a good filter. If you got yourself a pair of Eheim 2217 Classic filters, or a 2250 or the even bigger 2260 you'll never look back.

Greggy

[Steve Williams]

Thanks for replying. Finding it hard around Brisbane to get much in the line of the classic series, especially the 2260. Can get a 2228. If I had 2 of these on my 560 litre tank, would that be sufficient? Am hoping to buy a filter tomorrow, keep the Aquaone running until the new one has enough of a bacteria culture (a few weeks) and then get a second eheim. Does this strategy sound ok?

Greggy, you also mentioned that I should provide them with good quality food and variation. What do you recommend - I note that you say you have a planted tank as I do. Difficult to clean when I put things like beefheart mix in that pollutes the tank. I generally give them Tetra colourbits and freezedried worms. In the past I have provided frozen bloodworm, but have stopped thinking that maybe that was part of the source of the problem. Would love some advice from you or anyone else.

Thanks for persevering with my problem. Have not lost one this week, but one does appear darker than usual.

With best wishes

Steve W