A erythrura with worms ?? :( HELP!

[steph]

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

and more naughty words, I'm pretty sure my male A. erythrura has a case of worms.

I have to say in my 12+ years of fish keeping I have never had a case of worms in my fish so I am a bit at a loss on how to treat it and how they got there.

History: male got moved to breeding tank 'early' it had only been set up a few days (filter sponges had been in main tank trickle filter thing for 10 days prior to tank setup) because female had spawned in the holding tank and was beating up on him.

All looking good up to Sunday,

Sunday day I fed some mossie larvae to all tanks, female immediately goes lemon yellow and the pair were busy doing their little dance thing, and the male is bending himself in half..

I have two types of mossie larvae normal 'white' ones and some red wrigglers that are a bit more worm like, but all growing in a bucket of rainwater outside my backdoor.

Sunday evening/monday notice male is not much around and on monday dig thru the leaf litter to find him and he looks a bit thin and dark and not moving much.

Wonder if perhaps tank wasnt completely cycled so did 25% water change mon lunch time and added lots of prime, also added some ketapang leaf extract which apparently has some anti microbial properties as well.

He seemed a little happier this morning - eg I could actually find him in the tank so added a touch more prime before work and fed normal food.

Another 25% water change tonight and he is out and about a little bit more but still sunken belly and now thin stringy poo.

So i have to assume worms :( of some sort, but have nothing on hand to treat it with, I can get to a fish shop tomorrow morning tho.

Do I keep feeding live food - I presume if he is hungry thats the thing that will spark the interest the most?

Where did the worms come from - or is this a piece of string question?

I cant believe they came from the live food , the infection time seems too short and the female who has pigged out on the mossies is very happy still. The plane tree leaves ? the wood in the tank, I also added some plants on Sunday - again I think infection time is too short for that. Did he always have them and got stressed from water a bit which allowed the worms to take over?

Any ideas folks ?

Steph

[Hassles]

Steph

If its worms you're dealing with any halfways decent aquarium will be able to sell you some suitable medication.

I often find litlle red worms in with my mozzie larvae and suspect these to be bloodworms (another insect larvae) - which I personally never feed to my apistos.

Its not umcommon fot live caught apistos to have worms. If its worms the remedy will be simple - all the best

take care

[steph]

ok on second thoughts I think its might not be worms but possibly an infection. I think I went down the worm route as I was reading about camallanus worms on apistogramma.com today !

I cant get a pic of the fish but I have a had a better look, the area around the pectoral fins 'chest'? appears slightly swollen, and the belly is shrunken, there is also a red glow under the skin (I cant decribe it any other way) looking at the fish side on in the pectoral region - heart / internal haemorage/ stress?

I will try melafix/raise temp and some salt tonight although I am loath to put salt, and another 25% water change tomorrow.

Steph

[briztoon]

Steph I have two trios of A. erythrura, and none of them have shown any signs of worms or other illness. The only fish I have lost from Fishchicks has been from jumping out of the tank.

[gingerbeer01]

We are dealing with more and more wild caught apistos - of course you will run into worms, and plenty of other cool diseases.

Stringy poo means tape worms - or too much feeding tubifex/black worms will also give stringy poo. For Tapeworms hit them with a fish wormer- get it from your fish store (Prazi).

The other worm (red worm hanging from bum at worst stage) is the thread worm that you need the Big L for.

Read all the stuff in the health section - discus people are experts on worms.

I always have - Big L, Prazi, Tri-sulpha, Tetracycline and promethasul on hand. If I have no idea what to do I go Promethasul.

I would only use the salt as a bath.

[briztoon]

Steve what is the Big L?

Could you please list the Brand and Medicine name of each of the meds you mentioned, what each one treats.

[steph]

by big L he means levamisole hydrochloride I presume, usually found as a wormer for most livestock - there is an excellent article about using levimisole and what its effective for referred to here

http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=9957

the big problem is always diagnosis :(

current status:

- bumped temp and added melafix and 1/2 tbs salt to tank last night (10pm)
- fish was out swimming a bit better and not as dark, tried for some pics but they may not be in focus :roll: will post if there are any usable ones

- this morning did another water change and dosed again with melafix
- fish still alive but not swimming quite as well.

all other fish seem to be fine, and the only other fish in tank looks good with keen appetite

steph

[steph]

Pic of sick fish - taken sunday evening

Not good quality and Ive played with the brightness a bit to make some of the features show better. The area between the pectoral and ventral fins seems to be swollen, and looking from underneath its swollen assymetrically. The belly is a little sunken but more because the area in front is distended.

The ventral fins dont seem to be tightly clamped, but he isnt extending or using them either.

Also posted a pic of the pair displaying on sunday morning.

[gingerbeer01]

Firstly - I believe the red worms are bloodworms that are well known as freeze dried to rip the guts of fish to peices - that then allows bacterial infections to get hold and pow. I am not aware of any problems with feeding live - but I guess a possible.

Secondly I think a lot of the time worms inhabit our fish and kinda have a live and let live atitude. When things go wrong - they go ape (kinda a trash the house party). Things going wrong may just be the stress of moving tanks, or breeding or a cold night. Again can then act as an opportunity for bacterial infection.

Thirdly - once bacteria hit our fish the chances of saving them our slim. (Tetracycline and Trisulpha are antibacterial treatments - but not effective enough - we fight disease with our hands tied behind our back) The best antibacterial is Metro - which you cannot buy over the counter. I would go hunting for some of that and soak some feed and try that. (vet script or friendly fish store)

It could be some sort of tumor growth - if it is there is nothing you can do. Could be blockage in intestine.

I do not beleive melafix is strong enough for if something is seriously wrong.

One thing I wonder is - given that I have read that in the low pH waters our fish come from fungus take the roles of bacteria, hence bacteria infections really rip the crap out of our fish, lowering the pH may retard the action of the bugs. (Just a Steve thought.)

[steph]

hi all

all good thoughts steve,

i never feed frozen bloodworm to my fish for that very reason, Im not sure what possessed me to feed a live version of it, i know bloodworm is a form of mosquito larvae, maybe i never expected to see it in my backyard.

well the little guy didnt make it, ive just removed him from the tank, resting on the bottom, upside down, breathing heavily.

just reinforcing the lesson about water quality, water maintenance and prevention being better than cure. as everyone says once these things take hold and are noticable its usually too far gone for such tiny fish.

for the record I have used melafix once to cure an agassizi of an "unknown" disease, probably bacterial infection and have found an article where the merits are discussed and the manufacturers basically admit there are some bacteria it works well on and some it does nothing for at all, thus the highly varied results that people experience with it.

thanks everyone for their input and advice

steph

[Rod]

One thing I wonder is - given that I have read that in the low pH waters our fish come from fungus take the roles of bacteria, hence bacteria infections really rip the crap out of our fish, lowering the pH may retard the action of the bugs. (Just a Steve thought.)

I think you are spot on Steve.....
I'd suggest most of the bugs responsible can't live in soft acid water

I had a lot of trouble with another soft water fish.....Pelvicachromis taeniatus.....couldn't keep them alive
Once I softened their water and added ketapang leaves....no drama!

I have been spectacularly unsuccessful a medicating any fish with internal bacterial infections....but as you say Steph....prevention is better than cure.

[gingerbeer01]

Sorry to here that Steph - how is the mum going?

[steph]

the female is looking good, quite healthy and even still a little lemon yellow


she was definately ready to spawn on the weekend and is still keen.

I will keep up the water changes over the next few days to clean out the tank and make sure she is good and healthy but she is eating well and swimming actively.

sydney has had another big temperature fluctuation - its playing havoc with my heaters :( dont know if this is also a contributing factor.

steph