sick fish

[leanne31]

I have a sick red turk juvi which I have tried everything to get better. Hes in a isolation tank by himself and hasnt eaten in weeks. I have wormed him twice and nothing. I have raised his temp to 34 added salt and nothing hes even had a couple of doses of metro and still he doesnt eat. He is not dark at all even looks quite pale with not much colour just dont know what to do with him next does anyone have any opinions? Oh and he doesnt poo so cant tell you the colour of it either.

[weird]

This is imho, but I would probably do an intense treatment of metro. I don't think it is ammonia etc ... could be something else but without any other symptoms or taking him to Dr Dolittle ....

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1641&highlight=white+poo

[leanne31]

No dont think its ammonia even though I havent tested for it but I got him off my sister who was having trouble with him as I had a iso tank. i change 25% to 40% every 2nd day ph is 6.8 and nitrites is always 0. I fed him some live black worms today and he just sat there and watched them all wiggle past him. I dont want to give up but maybe hes just never gonna get well I hate to see anything suffer.

[leanne31]

Last night I gave him a dose of metro but this time I doubled it from 200mg per 40 litres to 400 mg and this morning he had thick and I mean thick white looking ooze coming out of him I think today I ll start him on a 3 day course and see how he goes should I add salt as well and what temp should I have it on its on 32 at the moment.

[Ben]

i have these theory, that when most animals are in a group and then one is taken away and put by him/herself they fret. i guess he is missing his little friends so maybe the whole shock of medication and bieng my him/herself has really knocked him around. I am not saying what you have done is not right by putting the discus by them selves, but i guess it is not helping the situation.

[Ben]

how many other discus were in the tank??

[leanne31]

My sister had him originally we had them shipped over from bris at the end of dec. He was in a 5ft tank with another 17 fish we only took him out of there about 2 weeks ago as he has never eaten we also had another 2 fish that were the same but one got better after being wormed and the other one a dose of metro but this one is still the same. He hasnt eaten in 6 weeks so i thought my last hope was to give him a full dose of metro and as I did get him off my sister I thought putting him in a isolation tank was better than putting him in my tank with 8 juvis. I hate to think that he is so weak form starvation but Im not sure what to do with him and I did give long breaks in between meds and I only gave him one dose of metro at 200 mg per 40 litres thats why I thought a full course might be the way to go, what do you think?

[leanne31]

oh and also he never interacted with any of the other 17 fish he was in with as from day 1 he hid behind a piece of driftwood and never came out. I think he didnt cope with being shipped over very well.

[Kaza]

As leanne said this fish from day one never looked right, orginally all of the blue and red turks I had sent over got sick, white poo. After treating for hex twice they all got better apart from 2. I had no isolation tank so Leanne took them both. After worming one got better leaving him. I dont know if he will make it as it has been 6 weeks since he has eaten. However Leanne just doesnt give up and in the process she is learning lots.
I really dont think he is fretting because he is by himself, as he use to get picked on because he was so weak.

[Merrilyn]

At this stage, it's not looking good. But, where there is life, there is hope. So all you can do is try to tempt him with live food, like brine shrimp or mossie wrigglers. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[leanne31]

What would you suggest Merrilyn keep on going with the metro treatment?
Or just raise temp and add salt? and I forgot to mention the other day when I was looking at him he started shaking his head and then he threw up some white stuff is that normal for a sick fish to do.
Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Continue with the metro treatment, but remember it is affected by light, so no lights on the tank during treatment. Leave the temp at around 30 to 31 degrees. And add an extra airstone to the tank, as warmer water holds less oxygen.

Throwing up white stuff does not sound good. Keep a close eye on him. You don't want him to suffer, and it may be kinder to put him to sleep.

[leanne31]

thanks for that merrilyn yes I already have lights off and an airstone in there, the temps on 32. I only started the dosing today so I'll give him 2 doses today, two tomorrow and two on monday and cross my fingers it helps him as hes fighting to stay alive I dont want to be the one to end his life. Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Good luck Leanne. He is a lucky little fish to have you fighting so hard for him. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

[leanne31]

Hi just thought Id put an update on my little fish . Today is his third day of metro treatment he still looks really unwell but i notice a slight change in him this morning. He started picking at the gravel and the filter which hes never done as normally he just sits there, then a little while ago I put some black worm in and he actually started picking at that not a lot but its a start considering no food for nearly close to 2 months now. Most that went into his mouth got spat out but Id like to think he ate a small amount. Do you think I should continue the metro treatment past the 3 days or stop, with his slight improvement I dont want him to go down hill again.

[Dee]

G'day Leanne31,

Sorry to hear about the little guy is not doing too well. I had a severe case of Hex with my pair about 6 months ago, they had all the sypmtoms you listed. The white mucas like poo, not eating, listless and at times "spat up" white stuff like you mentioned earlier. I initially dosed with metro 200mg/30L once daily for 3 days with WC's, which had no effect whats so ever on the pair. I then found the following article -----

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php

After reading the article, I treated with metro at 400mg/30L twice daily for 3 days with lights out at 30c. On the 3rd day like your little guy, my pair started picking at food but not eating. I continued treatment for additional 2 days .... 5 days in total. On the 5th day they started eating again and seem to be getting better. From then on they have eaten like little pigs and have started spawning again. Give the little guy another 2 days treatment ( 5 in total) and see if he starts taking food. I guess it couldn't hurt.

I hope this info helps you out and the little turk pulls through.

PS: I have found the generic brand of Flagyl called "Metrogyl" in 400mg tabs seems to work the best. Flagyl tabs dont dissolve as easily and liquid flagyl has suger in it.

Keep us posted :)

Cheers,

Dee

[leanne31]

Thanks for that Dee I might continue for a couple more days im sure it cant hurt considering hes in a bad way any way. If that doesnt work Im not sure what to do I may have to start thinking about putting him to sleep, 2 months without food must be hell, but for now I'll keep on trying for a couple more days and see what happens thanks again everyone for your advice Leanne

[weird]

I agree with Dee ... up the dosage, continue treating. There is hope =)

[leanne31]

I just did another wc and gave another dose of metro and even though he still looks pretty bad I think he has improved another small amount from yesterday. I gave him some more worms and he seemed a little more enthusiastic than yesterday even though he spat most of them out, he doesnt seem so timid either today so maybe there is a small amount of hope on the horizon. Leanne

[leanne31]

this is my little red turk this morning as you can see looks pretty bad but is picking food at least (hope photo worked 1st time at trying it)

[Merrilyn]

It looks more hopeful. At least he is taking an interest in his surroundings, which is a good sign. Hope he keeps improving.

[leanne31]

thanks merrilyn I am a little more hopeful today, been watching him a lot and seems to be picking the ground constantly but whatever he puts in his mouth he spits out.

As this little guys been not eating and sick for close to 2 months now do you think it will effect him in any way in the long run or do you think it might cause him to be stunted etc. Being that Im not a breeder it doesnt worry me to much, just curious thanks Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Lack of food early in life will probably cause some stunting, but it will depend on how he recovers from here on. He will never be a huge fish, but he could well grow to a respectable size.

[weird]

I had a guy that 'got left behind' from sickness ... when all 4 got moved to a 4x2 foot he literally exploded and caught up in size. There is still hope he won't be effected or if he is there is still hope he can do a catch up. ;) or she .... sorry ! And that discus is so cute probably is a she ... your doing a great job whatever the outcome is.

[kalebjarrod]

leanne your dediaction to the little guys life is inspiring

so many would have givein up

i hope he pulls through

[leanne31]

thanks everybody for your help, advice and kind words. Only had discus now for 2 1/2 months but very quickly grew to love them he may be small, sick and only a fish but still its a life so I cant just sit back and do nothing. Must say if my sister hadnt of put me on to discus forums it may of been a different story as Ive spent many hours reading everything and learnt heaps. Leanne

[kalebjarrod]

the DF rocks :wink:

[leanne31]

Hi all this morning hes still picking then spitting out does this mean he doesnt like it or because hes been sick for so long but at least hes actually swimming around now. Leanne

[Merrilyn]

He's probably actually eating more than you realise. I know he's spitting out food, but he must be ingesting some too. Another good sign. Keep up the good work.

[kalebjarrod]

its just picking over the food and getting the tiny bits he wants :wink:

its all good

well done

[weird]

Hi leanne

Hex is a bloody nuisance to get rid of sometimes.... it can be stubborn. I had to treat my little guys 4 times , until I was pointed in the direction of that article to mega dose for severe cases ... after that it still took about 2 weeks to fully recover (that is for all 6 babies to start eating ... some recovered earlier than the others)... so even when your finally beating it they still need recovery time.

[leanne31]

hi all just dont know whether I should stop with the metro been doing 400mg per 40 lit twice a day for 5 days now just worried if I stop he might start getting really sick again. Thought maybe I should half the dose and do it once per day just antil hes eating properly and looking a bit better any opinions thanks Leanne

[weird]

I dunno. I never found metro a stressful treatment ... but I have only ever done 2 treatments albeit both gloomy but successful.

I would personally probably treat for 2 more days at the intense dose. Then allow recovery.

However LadyRed or the other more experienced members may have better advice from their experience.

[leanne31]

The actual medication itself doesnt seem to be having a effect on him even his colour looks a slight bit better today too. Im just worried if I stop it before hes fully recovered he could slip backwards then Ill be back to square one again. A lot of people might think why I bother or maybe even think Im cruel but he doesnt look like hes suffering and hes still alive after being sick for 2 months so I gotta keep on trying and there is a improvement. leanne

[Kaza]

Leanne I agree with werid keep dosing for another two days, you want to be sure that the hex is hit hard on the head otherwise it will come back even stronger. I have some tablets if you need them.

[Merrilyn]

I've been doing a fair bit of research on the internet about Hex, and it seems that the modern thinking is that metro can safely be given at that dose for up to ten days in resistant cases. They now believe that fish receive a lot less of the dose from water than was previously thought. Once he starts eating, you can dose thru food, but for the time being, continue the treatment for ten days.

[weird]

Sounds like good advice .

[leanne31]

Thanks for your advice everybody I'll keep on going then and hope i get to see a bit more or a improvement from him Leanne

[leanne31]

Hi all just thought I'd give you all a update. Today I gave the little red turk a break from metro (well really didnt have time as my son broke his arm but anyway) I think hes improved a little more. Swimming around a lot now and today I put some black worms in the worming cone and he actually swam up and started picking at it which I really didnt expect. Hes still spitting food out but surely he must be swollowing some of it. Tomorrow I will resume with the metro for a couple more days as hes poo is still very thick and white. Bye for now Leanne

[weird]

Thick and white not good. Yep continue with the metro treatment ... atleast he is pooing ... must be eating ... sorry to hear about your sons arm

[leanne31]

I've decided today I'm not going to give this guy any more metro as today hes gone back to being his old self of not swimming around or grazing etc. Tomorrow I'm going to give him a big water change and see if he perks up again I just dont know what to do now maybe all this hard work is for nothing and hes just not gonna get any better. You wouldnt think that this guys a red turk as hes lost all his red colour now his body is just a creamy colour, running out of things to try now for this little guy any ideas anyone.l :cry:
Leanne

[leanne31]

As you can see from this picture his colour is bad but its not dark and his fins are still up. (sorry for pic quality) Leanne

[Merrilyn]

He actually looks better than in the first pic. I think you just might get there yet. Give him a break from the meds. A big water change sounds good. Drop the temp back to 30 degrees, and keep offering live foods, like brine shrimp or worms.

Sorry to hear about your little boy breaking his arm. How is he feeling now.

[weird]

I would give him atleast 2 weeks to recover. When mine when through a dreadful hex experience they needed recovery time after the treatment.

Hang in there, he is looking much better.

[leanne31]

Thanks Merilyn and Dave my sons doing just fine milking me for everything I got :roll: Tomorrow I'll do a big wc and drop the temp down on 30 I've had it on about 33 do you think I should give him a break from salt as well or continue with that
Leanne :D

[Merrilyn]

I'd give him a break from everything. Clean water, good food and time to heal is what he needs now.

[leanne31]

This morning I got up and checked him, his poo was the thickest Ive ever seen and before I took the photo it was about 2 and a bit inches long I just dont know whether hes gonna get any better.
Leanne

[weird]

Heya

what was the dosage of metro you were using ?

Has he started eating ? ... I am thinking he is if he is atleast pooing

[leanne31]

I was dosing at 400mg per 40 litres once or twice per day with wc I did that for 11 days. No I wouldn't say he's eating he was picking then spitting but today he's done nothing but then I did give him a massive wc and cleaned down all the sides etc. I was thinking of putting one of my other fish in with him to see if it would pick him up a bit just dont want to make it sick as well.Might just leave him a couple of days in the fresh water and try tomorrow on live bs or black worms and see how he goes.
Leanne

[weird]

Will most likely make another guy sick ... leave the guy in his hospital tank for now. All is not lost, don't give up until he gives up ;)

[DiscusD]

well, from the pics I see he's not in so bad of a shape. Especially comparing to mine, who looks like they haven't eaten in years! Good luck in curing the bad boys affecting your nice looking turk :D

[leanne31]

Today he took a turn for the worse when I checked him this morning he was head standing he stayed in the same position all day. A little while ago I noticed he was a bit better sort of straight again, I tried to feed him some black worms he just sat there, they even wiggled over his face and back. Hes even just about lost all the red in his eyes they've gone black.
Just hope tomorrow he gets a bit better
Leanne

[leanne31]

Well I'm starting to think maybe I shouldnt of stopped the metro treatment as today he is really dark, fins down, head down, he doesnt move from the same spot all day and today i noticed two white spots have grown above his eye they almost look like a litle white worm poking out. I went and seen the guy in my lfs and he reckons without a doubt hole in the head. Ive added salt and metro again but Im starting to wonder if its just time to say goodbye. Do you think he can get over this or is it to late?
Leanne
the photo below doesnt really show how dark he is but he looks a lot worse than that.

[leanne31]

another photo of spots

[Merrilyn]

Gee what rotten luck. The hole in the head is all part of the hexemita. Some say it can be cured by correct nutrition. But what it does really mean, is that this little fish still isn't cured. I think his chances of recovery are reduced, but it's not hopeless.

I think you need to decide if you want to go thru the ten days of metro again, or if it's time to finish.

I wish I could give you better news.

[leanne31]

I put metro in the water last night and this morning up above the other eye there are more of those white things and he sort of sits in the corner the whole time on his tail if that makes sense. Im doing water changes and adding metro twice a day ammo and nit are 0 ph is 6.7 dont think theres much more I can do. I'll see if it gets any better over the week end and make my decision then. Thanks heaps for your advice
Leanne

[leanne31]

This is the photo I just took of him a min ago. Merrilyn in your opinion do you really think he can still recover from this or do you think I should put him to sleep. :cry: My only worry is hes been taking metro now for so long and shown no improvement. He actually never moves from this position and he is more vertical than the actual picture looks like and he is almost black now too. :cry:

Leanne

[Merrilyn]

You have done a wonderful job of nursing this little guy, and without your dedication, he would have passed on long ago.

Now, can he recover from here? Tough call. But my honest opinion is that he should have shown a huge improvement on that dose of metro. It makes me start to think that maybe there is something major going on here, something genetic, or maybe a type of internal tumour. The hole in the head is a side effect of lack of nutrition, caused by his not eating. That white poos worries me a lot too, because it means the lining of the gut is being shed. Not a good sign.

A change of antibiotic might help, from metro to tetracycline, but expect it to wipe out your bio filter.

Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, we simply can't save our fish.

It's not for me to tell you what to do from here, but we will understand and support your decision, no matter what you decide.

[leanne31]

Hi all got some sad news I made the descision to put my little red turk to sleep today. Hes been on another 4 days of salt and metro and no change in fact he got worse, I woke up twice last night ( as the tanks in my room) to hear the filter motor labouring on the internal filter, he kept on getting sucked on to it and didnt have the energy to get off. He was just so skinny his face was sucked in he looked black and the holes were above both eyes it just wasnt a pleasant sight to see especially for my 6 year old daughter. So thanks everyone for your advice and help

Leanne

[weird]

Really sad to hear. You did you best :cry:

[Merrilyn]

I'm so sorry to hear that Leanne. No one could have tried harder. You did everything you could for the little guy. Sometimes it just isn't meant to be.

[leanne31]

Thanks guys just wondering do I need to disinfect the tank etc before more fish go in there and if so what with :?: Im getting a couple of babies off my sister soon and dont want to take the chance of them catching anything.

Leanne

[Merrilyn]

I'd give everything a good soak in plain bleach. Hoses, filter, sponges, everything. Yes, I know you'll need to re cycle the tank, but we don't really know what disease the little guy had.

Soak in a strong bleach solution for two hours, then rinse well and if possible, put the tank and equipment out in the sun for a day to remove all traces of the bleach.

When you refill the tank, add double the amount of chlorine remover you would normally use.

[nicholas76]

I'd actually dose your non sick fish as well .

the ones that have been in contact with the dead fish.


they have mouthed the "white waste" which is full of the harmful bacteria.


note - the white waste is the lining of the fish intestines. that why he wasnt eating.

in relation to your dead fish -
you need to catch this disease early before he gets to sick to fight it.


a drastic yet effective way to treat is to actually shoot some of this diluted med into the mouth of the sick fish , or use it in your beef heart mix!


sad about your loss but dont give up just yet bud

[leanne31]

Hi nick My fish havent been in contact with the fish that died as I got it from my sister and put it straight into qt. But she may have to dose her tank as two more of her fish arent well (not eating) and the red melon has lost most of its colour. She also gave these to me to look after as shes at uni full time so I gave them a couple of doses of metro just in case it was the same thing and they have shown a little improvement, a bit more colour and eating some black worm now. I suppose she may have to make the decision as to whether to dose her whole tank or not, I suppose we dont know for sure if these two are sick with the same thing as Ive seen no poo yet. I hope its not as I dont think I could go through that again.

Leanne

[nicholas76]

Leanne,


try not to feed black worm mate, that could be your issue!


in terms of live food id probably only feed live brime.


just try and get them on a good pellet food like discus premium or tetra bit.

hex can be brought on by many things. all discus carry it , it rears its igly head when things arent right e.g. fish is stressed due to poor water, poor food, it gets scarred etc tec


persist matey or move to bigger sized discus and see how that goes :wink:

[leanne31]

Hi Nick I only feed black worm to fish that are unwell. I have 8 juvies that are fed a mixture of frozen bs, bw, discus dinner and community dinner they also eat tetra colour bits, discus flake and premium discus granules, I have no problems with them. The discus I have that are sick are my sisters as she has no hospital tank at the moment and I do. Hers have been getting sick a lot recently due to ammo problems in her tank which I think shes fixed now so hopefully no more sick fish. Oh and I tried live bs today and they dont want to eat it.

Leanne

[nicholas76]

sounds like your running the emergency ward!


good luck :D :D

[Merrilyn]

And doing a great job too Leanne. Your dedication is to be admired.