star gazing discus

[Kaza]

This started about a week ago my BD looks like he vagues out and starts floating with his nose up. At first it was not very often but it is getting more and more. He also is a bit darker than normal and sometimes holds one fin against his body. Appart from this he still eats well. They were wormed last time about ten days ago and I did see worms. I have added salt to the water and got the temp on 32 but no luck so far. This could be a swim bladder problem but another of the BD was doing it too, he has stopped now. Yesterday I added another canister filter to their tank as it is only 5 foot with 16 3inch discus in it. I have made sure the water is flowing into the side of the tank. However I think with me mucking around with the tank yesterday he is stressed which hasnt helped the suitation.

[Merrilyn]

Kaza, I wonder if it could be gill flukes. They can cause the symptoms you describe. They coat the gill filaments and make it difficult for the fish to extract oxygen from the water, so the fish hang at the surface in attempt to get more oxygen. If it were me, I'd be treating for gill flukes.

Slowly bring the temperature back to 28 degrees, as very warm water holds less oxygen, making the problem worse. HTH

[Kaza]

This morning I got up and saw some very unhappy discus. Shortly I will be back at uni and this year is a very hard one, so I have been trying to make things easy on myself. Two weeks ago I purchased the Seachem brand of Ammonia Alert stickers for inside the tanks. Thinking this would cut my work load down, as before I leave in the morning I could do a quick glance and know there was no ammonia problems. I also cut down from daily water changes to 3 times a week. I have also added the extra canisters so I thought I would have added peace of mind.

Anyway back to the story, checked all the water parameters and I have a ammonia spike of 0.30. I changed 50% of the water added triple doses of prime and geo liquid and within an hour they were looking heaps better. However I am *** off with myself for letting them suffer.

It also annoys me that these ammonia alert stcikers dont work. Anyway how long before the new canister is producing good bacteria? Will there be any long term damage due to ammonia spike 2 are still dark and not happy.

[Merrilyn]

An ammonia reading of .3 is not a disaster, but would make your fish feel uncomfortable. I don't think there will be any long term after effects.

It is important to find out why you are having ammonia spikes. Can you tell us a little about your tank, how long has it been running, and was it fully cycled before the discus were added. Planted or bare bottom. Have you recently added a new batch of fish or started feeding more heavily.

Can't comment on those ammo alert stickers, as I haven't used them. Wonder if anyone else has had experience.

[Kaza]

The tank is 5 foot it has been running for 9 weeks. I used filter material from another canister to start the tank up. It is bare bottomed however I did start with gravel and planted I then realized how much poo baby discus do . What I have found is this tank (the only one that is bare bottomed) seems to be harder to stablise the slightest thing and I have ammonia spikes.

I have added another canister to this tank as maybe there is too much of a bioload on the one canister, the origianl canister is a Eihem 2028.

I wonder if I add some gravel form one of my big planted tanks would this help the ammonia spiking?

[Merrilyn]

It would appear that your single eheim was not converting the waste produced by 16 discus, and allowing the ammonia to spike. Adding the second canister will give you a larger surface for the bacteria to grow on, but it will be at least a couple of weeks before it will be fully functioning.

As you know, bacteria grow on gravel and plants, so by removing the gravel and plants from your tank would have probably halved the amount of nitrifying bacteria available to deal with the waste. This would explain your ammonia spikes.

Adding some gravel from one of your mature tanks will help to put more beneficial bacteria back into the system. You don't need to cover the entire floor of the tank. Just building some up along the back of the tank will help.

In the meantime, you will just have to do those daily water changes till the system comes into balance again.

[leanne31]

this might be a stupid question but being new I have to ask if you say merrilyn that Karen should add a bit of gravel to her tank to add some beneficial bacteria why does everybody go bare bottom why not just have a small amount of gravel. I have gravel in my tank with a otto internal filter only and i do wc every 2nd or 3rd day max and I never have trouble with my tank and my fish all look healthy and eat like pigs where as Karen is always having endless amounts of trouble and she has all the fancy filters with uv etc etc.

Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Good question Leanne. Never be afraid to ask if something does not make sense to you.

In this case, I think Karen's problem lies in the fact that she started out with 16 discus in a gravel and planted tank. This provided a huge area for the nitrifying bacteria to grow. And this was dealing with the job of converting the ammonia producing waste into nitrites and then into less harmful nitrates. The plants would then be using some of these nitrates as food, and any excess would be removed by water changes. It was, in effect, a balanced system.

When Karen removed the plants and graavel, it had the effect of unbalancing the system. The same amount of waste was being produced by the fish, but now there is only half the amount of bacteria to convert the waste. It simply could not keep up with the load. So some ammonia was not being converted and remained in the water.

We want to bring things back into balance as quickly as possible, and it will take time for the second filter to grow more beneficial bacteria. In the meantime, adding some gravel from another tank will immediately introduce more bacteria into the system to deal with the excess ammonia. After a few weeks, the gravel can slowly be removed, one scoop a week, which will give the growing bacteria in the filters time to catch up. In the meantime, that excess ammonia is going to have to be removed manually, and that is by daily water changes. Hope that helps to explain things.

[Kaza]

Thankyou so much I hate it when my fish are feeling unwell (so stressful). At the moment I am doing twice daily WC. I have finally got the water changes perfect, takes about five minutes and the fish just love it. Today I will take filter material from another tank and also gravel just to help kick things along.

Most people recommended to go BB however then the point needs to be made that you could need bigger filters to allow more surface area for the benefical bacteria to grow on, I think I will also get more noodles for my canisters. Anyway hoping that it all settles soon.

Merrilyn do you use prefilter covers with your canisters? I have read alot about them on Simplydiscus and have been using them for about a month.

[Merrilyn]

Hope it continues to go well. Yes, I do use pre filters, but in the very simplest form. A block of foam from the hobby shop with an 'X' cut into the top and pushed over the filter intake.

Stops tiny fry being sucked into the filter, and protects the main filter from my compulsive over-feeding LOL.

[kalebjarrod]

i always store a sponge filter not working in my sumps

just to seed it for emergencys.

I personally am not a fan of moving gravel.

if i have an undiagnosed problem i can move it.

you must be 100% sure that you a pathogen free

the concept is 100% correct, just wouldn't suggest it to someone for that reason

[Kaza]

Two days ago I moved filter material from another tank into the new filter on the grow out tank. next morning no ammonia but I had a touch of nitrites so another water change, this morning no amonnia and no nitrites. So I will leave the tank until tonight to change the water, I have been feeding lightly, much to their horror.

Hopefully it will be smooth sailing here on in. This week is my first week back at uni so I really need everything to go well and so I can cut back on the wc.

My breeding pair have wrigglers on the cone, wonderfully timing could have done it any time in the last 10 weeks but they choose this week. Anyway they will prob eat them.

[leanne31]

hey just wondering how your tank was going, sorted out your ammonia problems yet.

How are those babies going? Have the parents eaten them yet? If not dont forget to save me a couple :lol: :wink:

[Kaza]

Yea no ammonia (touch wood) but one of the red melons is sulking at the moment still eating but a bit more pale than normal. Babies are fine just starting to free swim tho the parents are not impressed and keep putting them back. thats a bit freaky as the mother collects 2 or 3 and then spits them back meanwhile I think she has eaten them. Anyway it is still early days so Iam not holdiing my breath.