Indian Almond Leaves (CATTAPA)

[Ben]

Has any forum users heard of these cattapa leaves? or do they already use it in thier water?
Lately there has been a few topics posted on the benifiets of peat, well what i have read on these leaves they do the same thing plus more!

I happened to have stumbled on some on ebay (not Australian)
and the benifiets of useing it:

Stimulate breeding condition (Black Water)

Reduce pH in water

Works as Antiseptic

Can be use to place the bubble nest (when used for bettas)

Reduce stress

Enhance coloration

Enhance fertility

Promote healthy and stronger scales

Sounds like a bit of a "miracle drug" for fish (especially discus!)
is it available in Australia?

[Ben]

The more i read up on these leaves the better they seem! Is this the secret weapon to all those wonderful Asian discus we see all so often????

[Merrilyn]

Cattapa leaves are the dried leaves from the Indian Almond Tree. It grows in the tropics, and is also grown in the botanic gardens in Cairns. I have used it in the water for breeding bettas (siamese fighting fish) but never for discus. The fallen leaves are collected and dried, and a small amount is used in the water till the water turns a light tea colour. It is supposed to have antiseptic properties, and to stimulate spawning. I have never seen any alteration to the pH and Melbourne water is always soft, so can't comment on it's water softening properties.

I'm about to set up a rose red pair in the spawning tank, so this time I will try using the Indian almond leaf in the water and report on the success or otherwise of the experiment.

For those who want to try the almond leaves for themselves, pop over to Australian Betta Forums. One of the sponsors of that forum, Bexley Bettas is selling these leaves.

Perhaps Kev might be able to give us more information on the use of the leaves by the Asian discus breeders.

[Merrilyn]

You can find Bexley Bettas here http://www.bettaaquatics.com.au/pages/portfolio/default.htm

[Ben]

Cheers Merrilyn!
thanks for putting me and others onto Bexley Bettas! Let us all know how you go with the "experiemnt" I have done a fair bit of research on the net in regarding these leaves, and they seem to work magic! maybe more magic than Geo Liquid!

Thanks again,
Ben

[Ben]

For those that need a bit more infomation:

http://www.geocities.com/ngan1199/index.html

[kalebjarrod]

daleys fruit tree nurser in kyogle northern NSW sells them

good people whom i have bought many plants of before

happy shopping

http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/index.html

[the_oracle]

The leaves in the pic. is called ketapang leaves. We have lots of them here in Singapore. You can find the trees growing by the roadsides. It's good for aquarium use. Some of us hobbyist in Singapore are using it. It's free. We just need to pick it up from the ground, clean it, and after that, just throw it into our tanks..........

[sunshinediscus]

When i was last in Penang and Singapore not one professional breeder had any of these leaves in thier aquariums that i saw, the only place i seen them in use was in some of the lps. If they were as good as we are led to believe then i think everyone would have them in the tanks especially when they are free from the sides of the road.

[Merrilyn]

Well, stage one of the indian almond leaf experiment is under way. I put a pair of red melons into the spawning tank three days ago. This morning, the pair have spawned, which is sooner than I would have expected. It usually takes them longer than a couple of days to settle into the smaller tank after coming from the 8 ft grow out tank. So that looks good.

It is an average size spawn for first time breeders, and the pair are tending the eggs carefully. So far, so good..

I added one full leaf to the tank prior to introducing the pair, and now the water is a weak tea colour. This is the only change I have made to my normal breeding routine. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

[Ben]

3 days and they have already spawned!!!
is this Coincidence that the leaves were in there?
or were they almost ready to spawn anyway?

mmmm.......


maybe sunshinediscus, the secret is right under thier nose's!

[Merrilyn]

Well, very early days yet, and one spawning is not enough to tell. But it is looking good so far. I'll put another pair in to spawn tonight, another first time pair, and add the almond leaf and see what happens.

[sunshinediscus]

You could be right prodigy and i hate to doubt something i know so little about.................my hosts were well aware of the said benifeits of the almond leaf and were telling me all about them when i posed the question, but still they did not have them in there own tanks. I guess it can't hurt to have them in the tank, but i'm the type of guy who needs cold hard facts about the properties of anything and not some voodoo magic potion. :D

Rod

[kevkoi]

:lol: Well Rod, none of the discus breeders I get fish from use the Ketapang leaf either but maybe it's more because they've not been for years and have had success (if it ain't broke, don't mess with it... :wink: ). These guys are very hard in their ways.. won't change.

That's however different to the betta breeders I visit. I don't know one that doesn't use the Ketapang leaf!!! :? No need for any "cold hard facts with them", it's just the rule that u have to use this! Cures everything, makes fish breed like.... errrm, well bettas.

Arowana farm use Ketapang leaves too.

Oh well, so long as it doesn't kill the fish..... :P

[Ben]

mmmm.....
i guess proof is in the pudding!
we will soon see from Merrilyn's trial...

[sunshinediscus]

mmmm.....
i guess proof is in the pudding!
we will soon see from Merrilyn's trial...

While i think Merrilyn's trial is a valid and interesting experiment, i don't think we could take any results from this and give conclusive evidence that the almond leaves are the way to go. That would take a lot of breeding results taken over a long period of time using control pairs and many other variables. Different strains of fish and even different pairs from the same strain not to mention differences from spawn to spawn will give highly variable results that come about by more than just how the water is treated. Discus just won';t make it that easy to experiment with. I think if the trial was done over several years and average totals were counted from the varying controlled groups of breeders then a more meaningful conclusion could be drawn. I know from my own strains that certain pairs are better than other pairs producing larger spawns more frequently and other pairs are much less prolific despite the fact they are very closely related and kept in identical conditions. It's only when we start to average the results over many pairs would a trend start to develop and its in those circumstances that a more meaningful conclusion can be drawn. I agree proof is in the pudding, but i want to see the whole pudding and not just a few crumbs from the edge.

Merrilyn, please don't take offence at my few crumbs analogy as none is intended.:)

[Ben]

Sunshinediscus thank you for your feedback.

To get a proper conclusion, you are right it will take a while before we get the "real hard facts" that cattapa leaves are a benefit.
I guess you could call these leaves as an "alternative medicine". Somewhat similar as aromatherapy is to humans and cattapa leaves are to discus.
But we can not overlook the fact that they do not work......

[Merrilyn]

No offence taken Rod, this is just scratching the surface, and really proves nothing until a huge experiment is undertaken. However, I'll try this with the next few pairs and see if there are any different results. If you would like to try the leaves Rod, I have some spares I would be happy to send you.

[Proteus]

I am in the process of arranging to get 4 Indian Almond trees...

(Terminalia catappa)

Here is some info which may be of interest to you all...



The leaves contain tannins (s. a. punicalin, punicalagin and tercatein).

The leaves contain agents for chemo-prevention of cancer and probably have anticarciogenic potential in humans.
They also have a anticlastogenic effect (a process which causes breaks in chromosomes) due to their antioxidant properties.

Tropical almond is also used by breeders of tropical aquarium fishes to keep them healthy. These include bettas, catfishes, tetras and other black water species.
Since tropical almond has antibacterial properties, it is excellent in this regard.


HTH

[Ben]

well, i got my hands on a couple of leaves (thanks mrs red!)

and put them into 2 of my tanks yesterday, as well as my pair of hoplo catfish.

so i will have to wait and see the out come!

how is your trial going with the cattapa leaves Merrilyn? anymore luck?


This is diffently something which needs to be researched a lot more! Aromatherapy for discus maybe?......

also its very interesting what proteus quoted,
i wonder if there has been much trials with cattapa leaves used with human and other animals?

mmm....

[Ben]

well well well!!!
Leaves went in on Thursday after I had done a big water change and guess who has eggs??

A pair of my pigeon bloods! Ok it might just be a coincidence that I added the cattapa leaves and I had done a huge water change in the same day, but there they were laying their eggs at 7am this morning.

One thing I have noticed is my hoplos seem to be a little quite since I have put a leaf into their tank.
Not as active as they were before I put the leaf in.
Something I will have to keep an eye on.
:mrgreen:


Anyway, time will tell,

Ben

[Aurora]

So how is it going with the leaves Merrilyn?

Have you tried any more pairs with it yet?

Is there anywhere to get the leaves in Melbourne?

[Merrilyn]

Hi Dave, I still have the red melon pair with the almond leaves in the water. Unfortunately they have eaten two lots of eggs, (first time parents) so for this lot I am using a screen and waiting to see what happens.

One thing I have noticed, there is NO FUNGUS on any of the eggs, even the infertile ones. They turn white, but do not grow fungus. Interesting side effect. The pair are still guarding their eggs thru the screen. Due to hatch tomorrow. Fingers crossed :roll:

[Ben]

Yes Merrilyn! i had the same thing, my young blue diamonds laid eggs but were a bit too young and the eggs were infertile, but they went a snow white colour!
amazing i thought! so the leaves must have some sort of impact within the water.

cheers,
ben

[kalebjarrod]

The leaves are releasing a toxin,

obiviously it is not a problem for discus

bashes the fungus, might be getting me some to!

[Ben]

Ladyred, its been a couple of weeks, how are you finding the catappa leaves?
cheers,
Ben

[Merrilyn]

Ate their wrigglers ho hum. Removed the leaves and been doing water changes without the leaves - no spawning activity - at all. This is a pair that regularly spawn and then eat their eggs. But now - nothing.

Puting leaves back in the water tonight. Let's see what happens this time.

[flukes]

Very intresting topic, where can i get them in Melbourne??

[Ben]

Hi Scott, i bought mine through the betta forum, ask bexley bettas, Gavin sells them for $1- each,
Last time i bought 12 and postage to mebourne was just over $4-. I Have found they last quite a long time in water. Give em a go! and let us know how you went!
cheers,
Ben

[Merrilyn]

Hey Scott - check out this link
http://www.AustralianBettaForums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6284

first time I have seen the extract sold in Australia. Might be a cheaper way.

[lambo]

merrilyn that seller seems a bit dodge but :lol:

[Merrilyn]

That's being cheeky Lambo LOL :lol:

I don't think you're at all dodgey ... but .... if you insist ...... :P

Ladies and gentlemen, Lambo is the nice young man who has been able to get hold of this leaf extract for us (and he's not a bit dodgey. I can vouch for that) but he is very, very cheeky 8-)

[wild_amazon]

Maybe someone can try it on wild heckels. Noone so far knows how to breed them so far.
The anti bacterial/fungus alone is a big plus for me.

[Ben]

here is a link with a bit of info for people to look at!
cheers,
Ben

http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/php/detail.php?cat=49&de=15943

[Ben]

I stumbled across this on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20756&item=4373280212&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V

I wonder if it is available in Australia?
maybe one of the sponsors could help us out?

cheers,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Peoples, :D
Just thought i would update this old post. :shock:
Any more news on those Leaves Ladyred?

Anyone else using these leaves.
My supply ran out, just about to get some more. :wink:


Ben

[kazkirk]

I did some searching and found this

The kernel of Indian almond has shown aphrodisiac activity; it can probably be used in treatment of some forms of sexual inadequacies (premature ejaculation).


seems to me that its making some discus a touch on the...how should we put it....horny side!

[poppy]

anyone in Adelaide have access to these leaves............ sounds very intersting

poppy

[marg]

As Ben was asking, could someone find out if one of our Sponsors could help us locate this Product?

I personally would be very interested. I was using Geo Liquid but the LFS is no longer supplying it, and the Cattapa Leaves sound better anyway (antiseptic qualities).

[jim from sydney]

anywhere we can get these in Sydney????Jim

[Merrilyn]

The leaves are from a tropical tree growing in the botanic gardens and parks of north Queensland.

Anyone got any friends living in Cairns?

[chrissyoscar]

It could be a way to make some extra $$$$$

If one of our QLD members wants to supply them I'm sure they'll get a few people interested in buying some.

Oscar

[goldenpigeon]

im sure i could find 1 of those trees. will any1 settle for gum leaves?

[marg]

Golden Pigeon, see what you can find your way.

Perhaps a stroll through the local Council gardens or a talk to one of the Council Gardeners - he should be able to point you in the right direction.
It would be great if we could get onto someone who lived near one of those Trees.

[Sindhu]

G'day folks,
have seen a few LFS in Singapore and Penang using these leaves in their tanks as well as for Discus tanks. They even package it these days under Ocean Free Brand and sold in LFS in Singapore for around SG$10.

Planted 3 of these trees in my garden and slowly collecting the fallen leaves. My gardener recently misunderstood and threw a whole box of my collection. Arrhhhh! so slowly collecting them again bu it's monsoon time, so much much to collect these days.

Am busy these days, so no time to try them out on a long term basis yet to see the results but since there's big talk about them, it can't be wrong. Not sure if it lowers the pH as my well water's pH is 6.0 and after aeration it goes up to pH 6.5.

[nag]

Hi All:

Here's a small article which I've written...
Pls go through
Link (http://www.indianaquariumhobbyist.com/community/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=44&mode=&order=0&thold=0)

[Merrilyn]

Hello again nag. Thankyou for that article. Nice work.

[Ben]

Nag, great work!

cheers,
Ben

[Littlefish]

Daley's Fruit Tree Nursery (Kyogle NSW) has Indian Almond Tree in their catalogue and their website says they can send to your local nursery anywhere.

www.daleysfruit.com.au

Fred :wink:

[jim from sydney]

sydney is probably too cold for the plant?????

[nag]

Hi Jim:

That's right...
Almond Tree is grown in tropical environment...

Nevertheless, you can get the dried leaves world wide...mostly through the LFS around, else...if someone close is travelleing from India, you can get loads... :)
Bye,

[Merrilyn]

The problem here is our very strict quarantine laws.

It is illegal to bring in plant materials to Australia from overseas countries.

[jim from sydney]

i have some leaves now....but just wanted to know about the tree....JIm

[marg]

Jim - where did you get your leaves from, and what did they cost you?

[Littlefish]

The Daley's website says the tree has oily seed which are edible raw or roasted (and also yields a dye).

Maybe this stuff is as good for people as for fish?

Although, if it stimulates the breeding instinct, it could be a bit of a nuisance.

Fred

[jim from sydney]

Jim - where did you get your leaves from, and what did they cost you?
Margo...from Ben..... contact him....Jim

[nag]

...if it stimulates the breeding instinct...
In whom, Fred...??... :lol: :lol:

Well, this is not the actual Almonds that we eat, it is a wild varient...When the fruit is dried, it is difficult to crack the shell...
Bye,

[Littlefish]

Breeding instinct? Nag, these days I'd just prefer a nice cup of tea. If I'm feeling really naughty I'll have sugar in it! :twisted:

Fred

[Ben]

The water has gone up a little where i live to 7.5.
Filtered aged water drops down to 7.2 in 24 hours.

I noticed some of my couples have gone off spawning and not courting like they usually do!

So i dug through my cupboard and had a few of these leaves.....i put 6 in a 8 litre pot, bought it to the boil and simmered it for 15 minutes and let it cool with the leaves in it over night
.
It went that classic tannin colour.

I checked the PH and it showed a reading of 5.12

The next day i added a few cups of this liquor to my couples and the next day...

PRESTO!

This is a very interesting leaf!

[Ben]

A few pictures .....
cheers
Ben

[EQ]

I used to use these leaves for my Arowana back in Asia.
It's soften the water. How I did it, I put a plastic full of the leaves in a bucket and I poured hot water on it. just like when u make a cup of tea.

Lots of ppl who keep stingrays and Altum angel use it this way in Asia.

however, on one website recond that the tree sort of produce a mild insect repellent to protct itself.

[phear]

Is there any 1 that can get them to adelaide by any chance?

Jamie

[fishgeek]

seeing as most of you are from australia
why not try tea tree melaleuca

it has been researched and scientifically proven to have antifungal, antibacterial etc activity
it will certainly aid the fungusing of egg's

tannins(natuaral astringents in most seeds/barks that have protective properties for plants)
generally will be able to bind and precipitate other compounds(ie softening water)
are by definition acidic (alter your waters pH)
have antioxidant(oxidation is damaging to living cells) so benefit the health of your fish

have been used for centuries to allow slow ageing processes notable wine making and tanning of leather

tea tree oil can even be used, this extract is available to all of you relatively easily

try experimenting
tap water plus 1% solution of tea tree oil and see what happens
or find some dry melaleuca(cant remembe whichsp) leaves and play

all the best
andrew
sorry if i missed the point i didn't thourghly read all prior posts

[stonedavid]

Am living in Cairns, so if you are wanting Indian Almond leaves let me know, shld be able to procure a few for anyone who wants them. Just give me some time as it is currently raining here and wld need time to dry them.
Pete

[Ben]

That would be great Pete!

have you used them for your discus?

if so, have you noticed any changes?

Cheers
Ben

[stonedavid]

Have heard of them from when i lived overseas, am going to the gardens tomorrow to ask them about getting some leaves, and if they are nice should be able to get a bag. Haven't used them on discus, but have seen them used on gouramis angels and bettas

[ozarowana]

Is the plant Terminalia catappa? If so this place seems to sell the plant.

http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/Nuts/Indian%20almond.htm#Share

[nicholas76]

I wouldnt mind getting some of these leaves!!! ive run out. :!:


Can these plants be purchased in Victoria? can you get seedlings??

Stone David you wouldnt have any seeds by chance????

[Dave76]

Hi Nicholas

It might be too cold to grow them in Melbourne I think...

Try ebay for the leaves - I had some sent down from Singapore - just get the seller to ensure they have

'Dried Terminalia catappa leaves'

written on the outside of the packaging for AQIS, or else they will destroy them.

Dave

[nicholas76]

yeah it might be the go!

although a few years ago I did have a mango plant growing untill dad decided to pesticide it to death lol


i have a solution.

those who want leaves --- pool your cash$$$$ ill fly to cairns and send a crate down !

ps ill need a return ticket too.

ps2 and some accomadation at port douglass , not entirely fussed mirage, etc some place nice :lol:

[Merrilyn]

HAHA nice try Nick. How about we just send Stonedavid a nice little pressy for getting them for us.

Gonna be way cheaper.

And yes, I'd love some too. I've run out.

[stonedavid]

Hi everyone, just tried to send this through but an error came will condense and give it another go.

The trees are also native to Australia and here in oz they are called Beech Almond (Terminalus cattapa). Also found out my friend has a large tree in his back yard ( always wondered what that sucker was)
Found out the hard way EQ, the tree may stop some insects but doesn't stop green ants ( not a pretty sight me jumping around trying to get ants out from under my clothing LOL)
Nick there are plenty of seeds sprouting under the tree but have been told it is a tropical tree, plenty of leaves.
Never used them before but have seen them being used in Asia. Tried them out, have 2x 4" tanks the first has 15 average size discus and 2 pots, just in case they pair off i can haul them out when needed.
Within an hour of putting the leaf solution into the tank, the 2 pots had 4 pairs shaking and dancing and cleaning them. All were fighting for position to use the pots. THe second tank put a pair of new breeders into the tank and once again within the hour, they too were shaking and doing the same as other tank.
This morning nothing in communal tank, as to be expected. The second tank has a very large batch of eggs and still there as i am writing this. Am impressed with what went on yesterday, and will check it out further Ie change of temps etc. Nick cant see you getting your all expense paid holiday in the near future mate. Leaves will need to be dried before sending due to wet weather.

[nicholas76]

well it was worth a try.

but i am definetly interested in obtaining the plant myself.

if you are in a position to send leaves south please keep us in mind, that would be great.


best of luck with the spawns

[stonedavid]

Should be no problem Nick, have got some semi dead leaves and can get some more and let them dry out. What leaves i made into a solution were quite old so i used a few of them in the one solution.
Thought the rain may have leeched the goodness out of them. Will try and get u a few seeds as well if not will get a few sprouting seeds.

[nicholas76]

Cheers David!


pm heading your way :D