What the heck is this ????

[TW]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1083.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/1000_1084.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/3000_1082.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/4000_1081.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/5000_1080.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/6000_1079.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/7000_1078.jpg


My 2 white pearl albinos have not eaten since I got them (beginning of May). At first, their poops looked thin, white, jellyish & segmented - which seemed like a job for levamisole. I treated twice with levamisole, with a break of around 7 days in between. Didn't seem to help - but the poops started to change.

Poops remained white & jellyish, but became thicker. So after a week med free, out came the metro. I am dosing 500mg per 10 US Gallons, repeating the dose twice a day. Epsom salt is also added with each dose of metro. Water change 50% once daily. I have just finished day 7.

Today's poops are by far the most gelatinous, biggest, glugiest ones I've seen. So things seem to be getting worse?

Am I on the right track with the metro?

Any help would be appreciated.

[ILLUSN]

definately an internal paracite, metro would be my drug of choice, i think its time for a trip to vet, a quick look under a microscope will tell you exactly whats causing that poo, I've never seen anything like it before.

[TW]

Hi Jothy, thanks for reply.

Already on Day 8 now of metro. Overnight, the sample sort of evaporated - so there's nothing to scope ATM. Hope there's no fresh stuff in the tank when I get home.

I've never seen anything like it before either. I wonder if it is poop or stomach lining?

When you say it's time for a trip to the vet, what do you think I should do. I get my metro by visiting Mike's surgery out Campbelltown way. Were you meaning that I should take a sample there to be scoped?

I have bought myself a scope, but confess I am intimidated by it & haven't been able to bring myself to use it.

[ILLUSN]

I'd take a poo sample to the vet, if you have a scope at home, just draw me an image of what it looks like and i can have a go through my text books of trying to Id it for you. but A vet would be better.

[TW]

Hi Jothy, still trying to figure out my scope. It came with a camera & that's what stumping me - well that & also that there's been no more of the weired stuff to scope. If there's more, I'll try to get a scope pic or drawing up.

I didn't think anyone ate any of Mal's black worms I left for them yesterday, but maybe someone did have a few bites, as there was some normal poops. Don't know if it was either of the albinos or if it was the stunted one that is sharing QT with them.

They are looking a little red - mainly around their face/nose area & also where their fins meet their body. Anyone know what this means? Pics follow

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1087.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1088.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1090.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1092.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1093.jpg

[Hollowman]

Red base to the fins shouts bacterial infection to me, a good AB should work

[TW]

What would be a good AB? I have Tetracycline. Also have Trichlorfon & FM&G.

Or do I need to visit my friendly vet? What about Kanamycin - is it better? I think I need a script for that.

I guess I need to finish off the metro first? Just about to put in the 1st dose of Day 10. In another thread a few months back, I read where your good friend Paul said his vet said for metro dose for minimum of 10-14 days. Should I go all the way to Day 14, or give up at Day 10?

How many days break should there be in between swapping from metro to some sort of AB?

[ILLUSN]

10 days should be fine, there are a few good meds out proably the best is gentamyacin (sp?) travels across the gills very well, if your seing your vet ask for a script, other than that erethromyacin targets gram negatives which should leave your filter ok, most of the other broad spectrum meds kill all bacteria.

[TW]

Hi Jothy, are say that both gentamyacin & erethromyacin will leave my bacteria ok, or is it just the erethromyacin that is ok for bacteria?

Do you know what the dose rate is? It would help if i can let him know what the right dose rate would be?

[ILLUSN]

gentamicin dose is 7.8mg/L 1 treatment only is needed. it will stay active for a week, this is a problem with discus cause i like to do daily water changes.

erethromyacin dose is 15mg/L repeated daily with a 25-30% water change inbetween (i like this cause it gives me a chance to keep the water quality up), i usually treat for 5 days in opther contires they treat for 10 due to antibiotic resistance, my fish show recovery within 72hours and i figure the extra 2 days is enough to keep down mutants.

when using any drugs like this treat in a hospital tank.

[TW]

gentamicin dose is 7.8mg/L 1 treatment only is needed. it will stay active for a week, this is a problem with discus cause i like to do daily water changes.

erethromyacin dose is 15mg/L repeated daily with a 25-30% water change inbetween (i like this cause it gives me a chance to keep the water quality up), i usually treat for 5 days in opther contires they treat for 10 due to antibiotic resistance, my fish show recovery within 72hours and i figure the extra 2 days is enough to keep down mutants. erethromyacin sounds the better choice then, so that I can do the daily wc. Think that's best in a hospital tank - to keep the water really clean. So, only 1 dose a day.


when using any drugs like this treat in a hospital tank. They are isolated in a QT tank - have been since I brought them home from LFS. But, what to do with the cannister filter that runs on that tank. I assume it needs to be treated, so the disease doesn't stay with in. Just so that I am forwarned though, will erethromyacin nuke the good bacteria?

Also, another suggestion given to me was to treat with Kanamycin. What's your thought on that?

[ILLUSN]

KANAMYACIN is a close relative of gentamycin, both are used for treating gram negative anerobes, Kanamyacin doesn't cross the gills quite as easily as gentamycin, kanamyacin is usually reserved for fish TB, will have to double check the dosage for you.

because erethromyacin targets gram negative bacteria the gram positive bacteria should be ok, with any antibiotic you run the risk of some cross reaction with other species, it should be ok.

[ILLUSN]

just double checked the dose, Kanamyacin 3.5-7mg/L adminstered every 48hrs with a 25% change inbetween, treatment should be continued for 5-10 days.

this will probably kill your filter.

[TW]

Thanks so much Jothy. This is really helpful stuff.

One thing I'm a little confused about the gram negative & gram positive stuff.

So both erethromyacin & Kanamyacin target gram negative bacteria, but the Kanamyacin is likely to kill my filter and the erethromyacin should be ok with the filter?

So, it's not the gram negative or positive which is a factor in whether or not it will kill my filter - but something else?

[TW]

Sorry, Jothy

Another question. Earlier you said that gentamicin is the best choice, because it travels across the gills well. But the issue is the daily wc & that this med is 1 dose only, staying active for a week.

Could I get around this by doing 100% wc a day, and then redosing each day?

[ILLUSN]

You could, just seems like a bit of a waste, also if you do pour the treated water onto the garden, far away from any drains, dont tip it down the sink or to storm water, gentamycin is one of those drugs we use to treat VERY stuborn infections in people, while not a "last line" drug its still one of the ones we turn too when nothing else works. The last thing we want is to create gentamycin resistant organisums in the enviroment.

generally most aerobic bacteria are gram positive, (they have a thick cells wall of peptidoglycan) gram negatives are anerobic or faculative anerobes(can live without oxygen) these bugs cause more diseases (although the most common infection in people strept throat is a gram positive organisum)

[TW]

thanks for all that info Jothy

I'm still working with my vet to decide the best drug to use. Doxycycline seems a likely candidate, as it's one the vet says he uses almost daily at his work place (but not with fish).

Do you know what the dose rate for fish of Doxycycline would be?

[ILLUSN]

Doxycline is a very good drug, i just find it a little expensive the dose is the same as erethromyacin 15mg/L repeated daily with a 25-30% water change inbetween.

[TW]

I almost did get erethromyacin, but accordig to this link on http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA084 on the use of antibiotics in ornamental fish aquaculture from the University of Florida, erethromyacin is most effective against gram positive bacteria. I thought that earlier, you mentioned that I should be looking for gram negative. That's why I was after Doxycline. Whilst, I'm not rich & every $1 does count, I'm not too worried if it's the more expensive choice. The fish I am at risk of losing are 2, each costing $275, so total cost of $550.00

Vet can give me Doxycycline, but won't without dosage information. Otherwise, he has told me to try & find oxytetracyline from my LFS. But they don't know what I'm talking about.

So do you think that erethromyacin is gram negative?

[TW]

You wouldn't happen to know the dosage of Doxycycline for fish at all, would you?

[ILLUSN]

Doxycline is a very good drug, i just find it a little expensive the dose is the same as erethromyacin 15mg/L repeated daily with a 25-30% water change inbetween.

just gave it to you, tetracycline is useless everything is resistant to it now.

erethromyacin has always worked well for me, i use it for blue green algae and the filter has never been effected.

[TW]

sorry jothy, I'm a bit stressed out & thought you were giving me the erethromyacin dose, because the Doxycycline was too expensive.

My bad for reading in a rush


tetracycline is useless everything is resistant to it nowI knew that about tetracycline & I knew that Doxycycline & oxytetracyline were both related to (or similar to) tetracycline, but I didn't realise that they were so close that if tetracycline doesn't help anymore due to the resistance issue, that they are in the same boat too.

Well no point getting either of them, if that's the case.

Ok, I'll talk to my vet again tomorrow. I know he has to order the erethromyacin in.

Thanks again

[TW]

Sorry again Jothy, when you said tetracycline is usless, were you also meaning Doxycycline is too. I thought at first you were, but in your earlier post you said it was a good drug, but expensive.

Sorry for being a bit dense here.

[ILLUSN]

doxycline is still good, its just diffrent enough to work, tetracycline (old school drug) is useless, i havn't used oxytetracycline but if its just tetracycline with an extra oxygen atom or hydroxyl group i dont think it will be much better, give the doxy a go, just monitoe daily for ammonia spikes, keeping your ph low and a little salt in the water should see you through.

[TW]

Thanks again Jothy. Now that I have the dosage, I'll ask the vet if he can do the script.

Things are are going down hill for these fish though. I will be lucky to save them, but I have to try.

[lpiasente]

Gosh Robyn thats a terrrible shame. I hope they pull through for you.

[TW]

Hi lpiasente

They've not eaten since I bought them in the first days of May.
One in particular, has gone down hill really fast since Saturday.
On 4 June, they looked like this 1st pic. Still not good (note the redness, which shouldn’t be there)
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1090.jpg

The following pic is what one of them looks like now. The other one is still pretty much the same as the first pic
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1103.jpg

This one can no longer swim upright. Head standing is the only way he can get around. Swimming action is terribly, terribly jerky. Sunday night, he was actually floating on the surface & I thought he would die that night. At least he has stopped floating, but I don’t think it is looking good for him.
More of that strange discharge was in the tank on Monday night. Pics show 2 pieces, but there were 4. Looks the consistency & size of some silicone squeezed out of a tube. I scoped it & there was nothing moving. I figure it’s not poop, maybe stomach lining, but I really have no clue.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1104.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1100.jpg

[ILLUSN]

Robyn get that stuff tested, we need to know what it is.

[TW]

Hi Jothy

ATM, I don't have any (as last night there was none in the tank). I will stop by my home tonight, before I go to the vet, & if there is any in the tank, I will take it with me. I tried to get a pic of what it looked like under my scope, but the scope & it's camera attachment are new & I couldn't figure out how to save the pic. I could get the pic on my pc screen, but couldn't save or attach it to a post.

No-one I have shown this picture to has seen anything like it. I've shown the pics to the vet too & he is stumped.

At least I am able to get the meds now, as the vet has the Doxy in stock (but couldn't prescribe it before without the dosage amounts). The Erythromycin wasn't available straight away, as it had to be ordered in. If nothing else goes wrong tonight, at least I can get the antibiotics in the tank tonight.

[lpiasente]

My heart goes out to you. You just feel like getting food and shoving it in their mouth. Fingers toes and all crossed for you that the meds can pull them through. xx

[TW]

Thanks lpiasente

The little guy was floating when I got home. I was about to bag him up & take him to the vet in case some autopsy might help with diagnosis, but then he did one lap of the tank and went back to floating. That's how it's been all night. He is certainly gutsy & trying not to give in. Even so, I just can't see this one pulling through :cry:

Anyway, there was only a little of that strange white stuff in the tank & i took that to the vet. He thinks it looks like parts of intestines breaking down & being expelled from the fish. He will check it under his microscope later. His wife is a vet pathologist & he will ask her to take it to work tomorrow & see what she thinks. I think she works at EMAI, so she might be able get the the aquatic fish guy at EMAI to take a look.

Anyway, the Doxycycline is in the tank and, apart from following the dosing regime, I think I've done all I can now. It's up to the fish.

I just wish it hadn't taken so long to get the meds. It took from Saturday until today to get the right meds in the tank. He didn't start head standing until late Saturday night, maybe if I could have got them earlier, he wouldn't be so far gone.

BTW, I'd recommend my vet to anyone. Anyone want his details, just let me know.

A big thank you to Jothy too, as it was you that got me over the line in knowing what the right dose is. As much as vet is great, he couldn't prescribe without a reference to dosing.

[ILLUSN]

more than welcome Robyn, was good for me to brush up on my med doses, been a long time since i used most of them :) in all honesty though, I'd expect a vet to know the dose of most drugs for fish, i guess fish must be a subject the just skip over in vet school these days.

[TW]

i guess fish must be a subject the just skip over in vet school these days.I think that's right. Pretty much most vets I tried before I found this one (one of our members) told me they don't do fish & the reason seemed to be because they weren't trained on fish.

How do you know this stuff?

Is there a fish med dosing book that you can buy?

EDIT: My vet tried to get the dosing for Doxycycline by speaking to the aquatic fish guy at EMAI (NSW Department of Primary Industries' Centre for Animal and Plant Health) and he had no reference for it either, so it wasn't that he didn't try.

[lpiasente]

I would guess that most people don't spend money on their fish at the vets so there isn't that much call for the knowledge. So there is a career change for someone Discus Forum Fish Vet. Annual salary lots of appreciation and smiley emoticons. :)

[ILLUSN]

I use to work in a microbiology lab doing antibiotic sensitivity testing on tuberculosis (multi drug resistant strains), i spent my degree doing medical microbiology and biochemistry.

most of the doses are easy enough to find, i keep a book at home of bits and pices that i find, alot of drugs are over the counter in the US so alot of more experienced fish keepers over there have worked out the doses with trial and error, the hardest part is converting tsp/Gal(US) to mg/L usually i multiply by (~5g/tsp) then divide by the number iof gallons and multiply by 4 (3.997L = 1 US Gal). if ever you find a Brittish dose you must remember that 4.5L = 1 UK Gal. UK is just as strict on drugs as we are so there are less doses on UK forums or in UK articals from magazines.

[TW]

I asked on overseas forums too & the closest info I could get was 1/4 teaspoon measurement. But because no-one (not even the link to that product) could say what amount of active ingredient was in that 1/4 tspn, my vet wouldn't use that info to base the dosage on. Also, the overseas pple all recommended drugs that weren't allowed in Australia. Kan is one of them. That apparently is no longer allowed in Australia, so you can't even get it from a vet.

I spent a lot of time googling, trying to find the dose for fish myself, but I couldn't. Then I ask here & bang, straight away you have the answer.

[ivo]

Hi robyn, I just saw yr post n I m so sorry to see u running around like a headless chuck looking for the right medicine. It's terrible that they don't eat from day 1. Did u call Sydney discus world to enquire why both yr abino have internal problem right from the that. Surely they would not sell them to u if they run honest business. Starving from start can't bE caused by yr tank. If I were u I would ring n if problem origintes from water they should refund u especially u spent vet money too. Hope they will come good tho.

Perhaps keep discus like my way - ignore them , feed if u remember, change water twice a week if they were lucky then they will be perfectly healthy. I haven't need to med them or worm them in months now n they r looking great except one faded red albino orange. The rest of faded ones after whatever hormone or cr 5, 6 , etc, worn off they r all in heaven now cursing on the person whom fed them those shxxt. Hope yr albino will come good. How is other beautiful discus doing?[/u]

[TW]

Thanks Roger for the kind words. I think I have left it too long to go back & complain to the LFS, although when all this is finished, I will let them know all the goings on.

On another forum, someone who’s knowledge I respect said this (you know him well Hollownam/Steve)
Robyn, there is streaking in the fins, look at the dorsal fin. Indicates most likely a blood disease, probably septicaemia.
So I googled a bit & found this http://www.angelfire.com/blues/fish_...EPTICEMIA.html

Doesn’t give me much hope. On a positive note, the doxy is working what wonders it can. The dorsal & pectoral fins are no longer streaked with blood (face still has a little red blotchiness). One fish had been floating since Thursday - seemed to be his/her resting position & only with great effort could he/she move back into the head standing position & do a lap of the tank, before collapsing back into a float. Saturday, swimming was slightly more upright but by Sunday – no floating at all & swimming is upright. Pectoral fins no longer flap erratically. Still, a lot will depend on how badly damaged the internal organs were while the septicaemia had a strong hold.

Jothy was an absolute gem on the weekend & had a look at the strange discharge under a scope & said it was mostly mucous, probably from an inflamed gastro tract. The bad news is that there were eggs from tapeworms, round worms & live protozoa that indicated the metro hadn't done it's job either.

I think the dreaded cross contamination thing has happened. Underneath this tank, since Christmas, I've been growing up some juveniles with daily 50% wc. An albino in there hasn't been eating as well lately & now, 2 days in a row, I've seen white poop coming from him/her.

Must have dripped or splashed water into this tank, when cleaning the sick tank above it. Too late now, but will get a waterproof sheet to lay across lower tanks, when working on upper tanks.

I have some other thoughts about how I may have cross contaminated too, in a way that may spread it to all of my tanks, but that is a matter for another thread.

I still have 4 more days of AB to dose, before I move onto the internal parasites - firstly with round 2 of metro.

I don't know whether to combine the two groups of fish (the sick upper tank & the newly contaminated lower tank) for the new metro treatment.

I know other’s with sick discus have felt this way before, but I am feeling very weary & down ATM. Just a passing phase, I know, but still …….[/quote]

[TW]

I have an appointment tomorrow with the Vet, as I don't have enough metro for round 2 of the treatment.

In my above thread, I told of how I have contaminated the 2nd tank, with at least one of it's occupants doing your standard type white spiro poop.

What do you think of combining the occupants for the next metro treatment, or is that a bad idea?

I am only suggesting to save on medication costs, but if it is a bad idea & i should treat both tanks separately, that's what I'll do.

I just need some sort of idea, so I can ask the vet for the right amount of metro.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this

[ILLUSN]

dont combine the 2 tanks you'll just spread the septecemia to the other fish.

[TW]

Ok, gotcha.

[TW]

Jothy (or anyone) do you think it is ok to put an indian almond leaf (or 2) in the tank while the antibiotics are in there? Thinking it would be good to lower the pH, as the filter may have been shook around & thought the leaves would be better than adding additional chemicals.

[ILLUSN]

it wont hurt not only will it lower the ph, the leaves also have antibacterial properties and are an excellent tonic for fish

[TW]

good, thanks Jothy

[swingn]

Where can you pick up an indian almond leaf?

It sounds like a wonderful thing to have on hand :)

[TW]

Hi swingn, have a look here http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19312&highlight=

[swingn]

Hi swingn, have a look here http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19312&highlight=

Cheers!

Clearly I've been missing in action for far too long :P

[TW]

Drat, the 1st of the inside display tanks is now showing signs of contamination (probably caused by the back syphoning issue I mentioned in a separate thread). Started with 2 discus not coming forward to eat & now twice in 2 days I've seen them each do the dreaded jelly poop.

This is all getting very discouraging.

In the meantime, the last antibiotic has gone into the albinos tank last night. They are still not eating, but no-one is head standing (or floating) anymore & that is a very big improvement from 10 days ago.

Can now confirm that the weird droppings (which still happen daily) are definitly coming from the albino's rear end, not via the mouth. Guess they must be poops then, even though I have never seen anything like them before.

[TW]

Hi All

I should have asked this earlier, because they are now in med free water (1st time in 10 days). I'm wondering if I stopped treatment too early - whether I should have continued on a few more days. I maybe only have 1 or 2 days doses left anyway. Here are some pics to help tell the story.

1st Day's home from LFS - Note the lack of red near pectoral fin or tail
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/138G_523L_Discus%20Tank/000_1005.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/138G_523L_Discus%20Tank/000_1022.jpg

Septicaemia - Early signs
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1088.jpg

Septicaemia - almost at it's worst
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1103.jpg

Tonight - After 10 days antibiotics - Note red still near base of pectoral fin & tail. Also red still around face.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1144.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1143.jpg
The fish look similar to me to what they did in the septicaemia early stage pictures, so that's why I wondered if I stopped treatment too early?

Also, here's the evidence of where the strange droppings are coming from. There is heaps of this stuff on the tank floor every night

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/Sick%20Fish/000_1137.jpg

Anyone think I should have continued on the antibiotics for a few more days?

[BobbyBruce]

Hi TW,

I have been following this thread though not commenting.

If it were me in your predicament, and I still had medication, I would be using it until all signs had disappeared. Particularly with something like septicaemia.

Regards,

Bob

[ILLUSN]

i'd have to agree with Bob, i'd have used it all, though your fish are clearly on the mend if you've stoped and they are med free try and get over that protozoa infection, if you like use metro with epson salts to help push all those nasties out.

[TW]

Hi Bob & Jothy

I did end up putting in the last dose of doxy I had left last night, so they were only med free for about 1.5hrs. Currently, still in a tank dosed with doxy.

Should I get enough doxy to treat for a further 4 days, so that the AB treatment went for 14 days, in lieu of 10.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, Andrew Soh replied to my questions regarding the dosage of doxy (from about 10 days ago). I updated him with all up until last night & he had this to say:-

I do agree that your discus are not in best of health as we can see a post-bacterial infection syndrome in them …..

As to the redness on anterior of fins and nose, Doxycycline may not work.

Anyway, just acriflavine & salt at 100gms for 100 litres of water may just work beautifully.

What are your thoughts on all that. Will I just move on from all antibiotics, give them a few days rest & start on with the increased metro dosing?

Or, continue with doxy, or switch to acriflavine ?

[ILLUSN]

Doxy did work, your fish didn't die, septeciemia is usually fatal, even my plecos died of it and those fish are near bullet proof, salt works well you can use salt with doxy if you like, archiflavin is again an older drug but still seems effective, by by filter if you use it though.

to be honest meds will kill the fish before they kill all the bugs, what you want to do is get the fish into a condition where the immune system can controle the infection (yours appear to be hitting that state now) if your fish cant eat they cant get better get rid of the protozoa first once they get some weight back on you can use acriflavin as a follow up but i dont think you'll need it.

[TW]

Okay, thanks again. So straight onto the metro & no more doxy from tonight, right?

BTW, I have been adding 1 tspn of salt per 40L each night that I dosed the doxy.

When I start the metro, I usually also dose epsom salt at the same time.

[lpiasente]

I am so happy for you Robyn you have done a great job at nursing those fishies. They seem to be looking better

[TW]

Thanks Lipiasente. Not out of the woods yet though. It will all be for nothing, if they don't eat soon.

But trying to stay positive :)

[lpiasente]

It is so frustrating when they won't eat, you just want to get the food and stuff it in their mouths. Fingers and toes crossed

[Noddy65]

How are things going now Robyn?

Mike :D

[TW]

Hi Mike

No change.

The metro tablet treatment starts tomorrow.

Someone has suggested this to me:-

"As for the parasites, I'd try and get hold of flubendazole and metro. They can be dosed together."

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

[Noddy65]

Hi Robyn
Ive been chasing flubendazole for a while but its one of those drugs we cant get any more in Aus (resistance again?). Ive tried all my drug rep sources but no go.

Mike

ps. Its also really good at controlling hydra in tanks

[Noddy65]

Fenbendazole ( a closeley related drug) is available as Panacur (Ive used the Panacur 2.5)...not sure on the dose though. Ive used it to nuke a tank full of hydra and it did work with no effects on the fry in the tank. Ill have to try and dig up the dose when I get home

Mike

[Noddy65]

Also if people are using dimetridazole (although I dont know where you would get it from) , a relative of metronidazole, they should read the following link. Keep in mind that dimetradazole and metronidazole though related, are different drugs and at this stage the use of metronidazole (used properly) is safe.
http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/dimetridazole.shtml

Mike :)

[TW]

Fenbendazole ( a closeley related drug) is available as Panacur (Ive used the Panacur 2.5)...not sure on the dose though. Ive used it to nuke a tank full of hydra and it did work with no effects on the fry in the tank. Ill have to try and dig up the dose when I get home Thanks Mike.

So, if anybody thinks its a good idea to combine the metro & Fenbendazole treatment, pls let me know. Metro starts tomorrow.

At this stage I have the original sick fish in one tank (the ones that had the septicaemia & the internal parasites) & the internal parasites (looks like spiro) has spread to 3 additional tanks. I know I already asked about combining all the fish for treatment & was told to keep separate from the ones with septicaemia, so I didn't spread the septicaemia.

I bought enough metro to treat them all separately, but I'm just double checking one last time. I will definitely keep the septicaemia fish separate, but what about combining the tanks that have only shown signs of spiro?

I am looking at saving some of the work & cost of meds - but not if it is at the expense of the fish. If general consensus was that I could combine the fish from the other 3 tanks & treat the albinos separately - that's great .... BUT if that idea gets a big BOO HISS from you all & I really should treat all 4 tanks separately, so be it.

What do you all think?

[ILLUSN]

You can combine all fish except the fish with the septeciemia, if you can get fenbendazole you can use it with metro.

[TW]

Thanks Jothy

Mike / Jothy , do you know the dose of fenbendazole? Is that something I get through you, Mike? If that's a yes, I guess I will swing past your surgery tonight?

[TW]

Hmmm, after reading this thread of Mistakes r Crucial http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40 I'm not game to use fenbendazole in the water. Seems it may not be safe to use that way & should be used in food instead of dosed in the water. Not much use to me, at this stage then, as the fish I am most concerned for are not eating.

[TW]

Last minute questions - do I need to include the cories that are in one of the infected tanks in the metro treatment.

Now that I am going to combine 3 tanks for treatment, do I need to treat all 3 canister filters?

The albinos will remain as a separate treatment.

[ILLUSN]

i wouldn't treat the cories, scaless fish like cories dont take high dose meds too well, if you leave the canisters where they are, all bugs should die on their own with no host to infect.

[TW]

Thanks, so the cories, sand & java fern won't act as host. The 4ft tank has sand, drift wood & some java fern.

Should I syphon out the sand to sun dry or is there no need to do that?

I guess those filters will uncycle themselves during the 10 day treatment without fish present?. The cories may do a little, but not when the tank normally has 7 adult discus.

[ILLUSN]

Bio media bounces back really fast with shifts in bioload, i wouldn't worry, over 10 days you wont loose too much bacteria. if you want to keep up some biomass throw in the peps i gave you they crap more than they eat.

Most flagellets need a host to say alive, you must remember that these are "normal" flora of the fishes gut, its only when the fish becomes stressed or run down that they get the upper hand, you can sample normal stools and find the occasional protozoa or flagellet.

at the end of the day medicate your sick fish nurse them back to full health (make sure they put some weight on) and just move them back to their usuall home.

[TW]

That is a good idea about the peps, but don't want to risk their health. But I guess you wouldn't suggest this if they were able to contract the internal parasites, right?

So peps & cories are safe from whatever ails the discus (not the albinos - the other ones)?

Peps & Cories won't act as hosts for the flagellets?

So no need to do anything with the sand?

[TW]

Okay, day 1 of round 2 of metro is done & dusted, but not without error. Metro & me, we have 2 to 1 score (not in my favour). My 1st failure (death) was one in which I dosed every 2nd day. The next treatment I followed DPH theory of re dosing every 8 hours (DPH say that metro's active ingredient is all but not existent after it has been in the water for 8hrs). That treatment led to a healthy fish.

Next failure was round 1 of metro treatment for these albinos. I used DPH level of dosage, but only dosed once a day (to save costs & work) - that treatment failed.

This time, I am using an increased dosage rate (from Jothy) & planned to do 2 doses a day (as a cost compromise between 1 & 3 daily dosages). That is until I found I could combine 3 of the tanks - this meant I have enough metro to do the 3 daily dosages & the work isn't going to be as much as I only have 2 tanks, instead of 4 to treat.

But I made a mistake - don't know what I was thinking. In 40 Litres, I should have used 5 tablets - but for the first 2 doses today, each tank got 10 tablets (with a 50% wc in between re dosing). They've since had another 50% wc & have the correct dosage now.

I only realised my error cause I counted my tablets & realised i didn't have enough - so I rechecked my dosages :oops:

They seem ok from the high dose, so I hope I didn't do any harm.

One good thing - today is the first day in a long time that the albinos tank hasn't been littered with the horrid slimy white gunky poop. It was unbelievable the amount that was being expelled by them daily.

[TW]

Can you dose prazi and metro together?

[ILLUSN]

you can just so long as threre are no scaless fish (loaches etc) in the tank in the us jungle paracite cure is a metro prazi combo.

[ivo]

hi robyn, i truely feel for you about the stress you have been going through. how did the problem tank of discus infected additional 3 tanks of discus?

[TW]

Hi Roger

I thought I'd been careful, but not careful enough. All tanks are filled from a common 1,000L storage container with a pump & a hose. Each tank has it's own hose end, which I connect to the main hose via one of the quick connector thingys. Each tank has it's own gravel vac. So, I thought I had cross contamination covered.

The sick albino's tank is on the top row of a 3 level rack.
This causes a strong back syphon to occur when I turn off the filling pump. It immediately starts to back syphon into the storage container & I didn't realise it was doing this. Being so high, it was quite fast too. Then I used that container to fill the display tanks as well as the tanks on the rack.

I am organising non return valves for my filling hose, so this will never happen again. In the meantime, I am being as careful as I can to prevent the back syphon. I have noticed that even the tanks on lower levels do this back syphon thing - so it is probably something everyone should be aware of.

Next, I was working on the sick albino tank & lifted out the sponge filter to wash it. The tank below, it's lid wasn't on & I dripped water from the dirty sponge filter directly into the tank below (so now the nice albino alenquer juvi I bought in January is pooping those jelly poops). I have bought myself a plastic tarp, which I lay across the lower tanks before I work on the albino's tank. Plus I make sure the lid is on. Next to the alenquer's tank is the tank where I house my 2 little heckels, which were never the strongest of fish anyway. One of those heckels was taken down by the disease quickly & has already died. The other has gone off his food.

The final way I added to this was by not sterilising my hands when I moved between tanks. I now have rubbing alcohol. I probably won't use the alcohol or the tarp when all my tanks have known healthy stock, but from now on, whenever i have anything in QT, I will use these precautions in the future. I can see the sense in having your QT in a separate room - but I can't do that.

The next tank to become infected was my beloved wild browns. The first to show the poops was the one you always lovingly called the "ugly" one.

I really regret ever buying the white pearl albinos, but what is done is done. Hopefully my existing stock will pull through, because at least they have only been off their food for a short time. The albinos - well, not eating since early May means they can only be getting weaker.

Luckily the 7ft & another tank with a pair & their fry have remained unaffected. Fingers crossed it stays that way - but I'm watching & waiting.

[ivo]

hi robyn, i am very sorry to hear that and am amazed how easily the disease was spread. i feel exhausted just by reading how it infected one tank to another. i can just imagine you must be so worn out by trying to save them for so long. i got to give you thumbs up for your patience and your care for them. if i was you i am sure i would have given up on those albino pearl diamond long time ago. fingers cross this is the end of the drama and all your discus will get better from here on.

[Noddy65]

Hi Robyn
After your dramas Ive been chasing check valves for my new systems...I found them for $30 - $40 for the size we need from a company called Austek Irrigation....

Mike

[TW]

For the 2nd time, someone on an overseas forum has suggested this might possibly be Cryptobia http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=302
xxxxx

Here are some partial quotes from that linked article:
"Cryptobia is a flagellated protozoan parasite similar to the Hexamita and Spironucleus parasites responsible for hole in the head disease. The disease usually causes granulomas in the stomach, but in severe cases, systemic infections can arise which affect the blood and organs, including the liver, gall bladder, ovary, eyes and brain..........Unlike similar diseases, the often prescribed metronidazole (flagyl), didn't appear effective against C. iubilans. Instead, the study found that a bath of dimetridazole of 80mg/l for 24 hours repeated daily for three days, or 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol at 10mg/l for 24-hours repeated daily for three days, was the most effective treatment."

This is certainly a possiability for my poor fish, as 2 complete 10 day courses of high dose of metro (suplimented with a dose or two in liquid form, delivered orally via a crop needle) did ziltch for stopping the white silicone style poops.

Maybe it was dimetridazole or amino-5-nitrothiazol that might have helped these fish.

Mike, I read through some parts of the link you gave & in particular http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/downloads/dimetridazole_review_findings.pdf. Looking at appendix B & D of the report, it does look like dimetridazole is still available in Australia - but where from? Any clues? Or maybe 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol


Thanks for the tip on the stop valves too, Mike.

Roger, thanks for the kind words. Yes, I am very tired. I wish these guys would either get better, or swim off to fishy heaven.

[ILLUSN]

octozin by water life is dimetridazole the active ingredient is 8.5% w/w so you could source that if you had to.

the other thing is that your fish mught have an infection that is completely resistant to metro.

[TW]

octozin by water life is dimetridazole the active ingredient is 8.5% w/w so you could source that if you had to.That's good to know, finally, what is the ingredient in one of the water life products. They are notoriously famous for hiding their ingredient list. How'd you find out?
the other thing is that your fish mught have an infection that is completely resistant to metro.Yeah, that's why I'm thinking the Cryptobia diagnosis might be on target. It has symptoms similar to those caused by the spiro protozoa & is often misdiagnosed as hex or spiro & metro is not effective, but dimetridazole is found to be effective (even though related to metro). I've read this protozoa also effects the blood & my fish had septicaemia.

I'll never know for sure what is taking these fish down of course, but I'd like to be able to try the dimetridazole if I can.

Mike, if you pop into this thread, can you have a quick read of my post above Jothy's

[ILLUSN]

I've got octozin if you need it

[TW]

Hi Jothy

Is octozin freely available now from LFS, or still hard to get? If hard to get, and you have it to spare, maybe I should buy some from you?

[ILLUSN]

south windsor fish hatchery gets it in sometimes, ask around and see if you can find it, if not you kno where i am.

[TW]

thanks Jothy

[ozarowana]

Seems odd that metro won't fix a hex/flagellate problem, especially the treatments your doing... maybe it is something else.

I've had pretty good success with Indian almond leaves for septacemia and swim bladder infections in discus and angels. I use about 3 large leaves per 100L. It takes a few days to leach so might be good to presoak in a bucket and using the liquid if your doing daily water changes.

[TW]

Seems odd that metro won't fix a hex/flagellate problem, especially the treatments your doing... maybe it is something else.. Earlier in this thread I posted this:
For the 2nd time, someone on an overseas forum has suggested this might possibly be Cryptobia http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=302 Cryptobia doesn't respond to Metro but there has been success with dimetridazole. But I just I couldn't get hold of any in time. Already, 1 albino & the hero fish have died. I don't think it will be many days before the last of the albino's is gone.

Thanks for the suggestion of Indian Almond leaves & it's a good idea. I already tried it, with no improvement. Whatever these discus had, and I suspect Cryptobia with septicaemia as a secondary issue, it is a particularly nasty thing & almond leaves on their own wouldn't be able to battle it. Seems this was a terribly sick batch of discus that I bought :evil:

Thanks for trying to help :)

[ozarowana]

Pretty sure the vet can get dimetro... I've never gotten it myself but have read somewhere a while ago that they can get it.

Sounds like the primary infection was too much for the fish... sorry to hear.

FYI
The Indian almond leaves take some time to work... the water needs to stay tea coloured. I only do occasional water changes to keep the tank clean. You can feed antibiotic soaked food if they are still eating.

I'm trying to rescue a friends angel atm. It spent all of it's time on its side on the bottom of the tank. After about two weeks it is swimming upright but still not 100%. I've fixed a couple of discus this way too. Redness of the pectoral fin base (septacemia?) can be cured too.

[TW]

Hi ozarowana

My vet said none of his suppliers have dimetridazole anymore. I found a feed stock supplier that had it, but they just sold their last batch & said they weren't getting more. It's an an ingredient in Waterlife's Octozin. But Waterlife confirmed to me that it's still currently not allowed in Aus (they are working on getting it back allowed). ILLUSN offered me to buy some of his Octozin, but since I found out that it is still not freely available, I'd feel bad taking his (thanks anyway, ILLUSN).

Indian Almond leaves are great & they're in the tank, but they just aren't doing it for this fish. Re: septicaemia. There has been 2 separate 10 day courses of antibiotic (from the vet - so it was the good stuff), which did a lot to improve the septicaemia, but didn't cure it completely.

Right now, I've come to a decision that I have done all I can for this fish. I have spent a small fortune on vet visits, medicines & live food to tempt the starvation diet to end. Unless I can find dimetridazole that is - if I can find it, I'll give it a shot. But other than that, just a daily water change, Indian Almond leaves & food offered daily.

Sorry if I sound negative right now, but I have tried everything I can think of & I feel I am just beating my head against a brick wall. This is a juvenile fish, that hasn't eaten since I brought it home from LFS (1st May). I actually think I should help him on his way to fish heaven with clove oil, but I just can't bring myself to do it. So, even though I don't hold hope, lets see what the Indian Almond Leaves do. Fingers crossed, ozarowana.

Good luck with the Angel. Sounds like he's in good hands.

[Hollowman]

Sometimes we have to make the right decision Robyn, The poor fish must be gaunt by now. Try the leaves, they might help, but I dont hold out much hope.
Steve :cry:

[ILLUSN]

Robyn I'm not keeping many discus anymore if you want the octozin its yours i've got plenty of tablets.

[TW]

Thanks Steve, yeah i know I should do something, but while his fins aren't cramped I just can't bring myself to do it. I'm waiting for that miracle.

Jothy - are you sure? I couldn't find Octozin near me, so I sent Waterlife an email & here's their reply:-



Thank you fro the email.

Octozin does contain dimetridazole. Currently Octozin is is not available in Australia due to government regulations. We are working with our distributor to gain an Australian licence, and so that the product meets labelling requirements.

I have forwarded your email to our distributor so that they can keep your details on file.

Yours sincerely,

Alex Cox.

Waterlife Research Ind. Ltd.,
Bath Rd, Longford, Middlesex UB7 0ED (UK)
Tel: + 44 (0)173 685696 Fax: + 44 (0)1753 685437

So, if I buy it from you & you have your own emergency you mightn't easily replace it. But, if you really can spare it, maybe I could do an internet or PayPal deposit to you & you could post some to me?

The dose is 80mg/l for 24 hours repeated daily for three days. To treat insitu, with filter running, the minimum water volume to keep the filter running is 40L.

Or I could transfer the fish to a plastic container without a filter & then be able to use a smaller volume of water. But that means that any nasties in the filter won't have received treatment & I don't know how important that might be. On top of that, to be dimetridazole greedy, the only other fish that didn't seem to make a full recovery (from possible cross contamination) is my remaining heckel. Your last advice was not to treat my other fish together with the white ones (due to only the whites having septicaemia). Would you still say not to combine the heckel & the albino for dimetridazole treatment?

Thanks once again for your offer to help Jothy :)

[ILLUSN]

let mw check exatly how much i have left, i've proably got enough to dose all your tanks seperately, will post you what I've got.

[ozarowana]

Robyn, I agree that you have done everything you can and quite a bit more. In regards to the IAL that was just a side note and was not meant to be a cure for your main problem. All the best.

[Daniella]

Clout in Canada contain dimetridazole. I think in the USA it contain metro but from the ingredients that I see in my box that I bought here in Canada, it contain dimetridazole: 1,2-dimethyl-5-nitroimidazole

Too bad it's a really strong med with trichlorfon as well but in last resort, it might be of help.


Hi ozarowana

My vet said none of his suppliers have dimetridazole anymore. I found a feed stock supplier that had it, but they just sold their last batch & said they weren't getting more.

[TW]

let mw check exatly how much i have left, i've proably got enough to dose all your tanks seperately, will post you what I've got. Thanks Jothy, these guys didn't make it and all in the albino tank died. The heckel is still around, but still not well. Are you still prepared to sell what you have of the Octozin? If so, let me know your price so we can work something out. I thought I had this thing beat in the cross contaminated tanks (other than the heckel) but once again the wilds are now pooping white jelly stuff. Wish I'd never bought these darn albinos in the first place :x

Robyn, I agree that you have done everything you can and quite a bit more. In regards to the IAL that was just a side note and was not meant to be a cure for your main problem. All the best. Thank for kind words :)

Daniella, thanks for the info, although I'm not so sure Clout is available where I live.

[ILLUSN]

Hi Robyn sorry i totally forgot!!!!!!!!!!

I have a full bottle left 80 tabs thats enough to treat 600 (200L at 3x dose), its yours, I'll post it out to you tonight.

[TW]

Thanks Jothy, I appreciate this :)

Please let me know what I owe you

[corlis]

Photos on first thread is exactly what I have exuding from a fish I received in a shipment a week ago. According to all the threads a cure does not appear promising. I am assuming my problem is Hexamita. But I am not using metronidazole. A study on Rainbow Trout and the control of H. salmonica found a number of non Metronidazole based drugs effective against Hexamita. A drug called diethyl carbamazine was used in a food preparation and was 100% effective. http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/33/d033p051.pdf. I have also found that diethyl carbamazine is used as a dog heart worm preventative and sold as dimmitrol 400mg 100tabs approx $14.00 over the counter in Australia. What does the audience think about this drug. I need to do pathology preps on slides on Monday to possibly diagnosed culprit. Hopefully start drug dosage tuesday. Fish not eating so need to use a bath preparation. Metronidazole dosage for food was 5g /kg while diethyl carbamazine 40g/kg. Any suggestions for bath concentration and time.

Dr Dave

[corlis]

Photos on first thread is exactly what I have exuding from a fish I received in a shipment a week ago. According to all the threads a cure does not appear promising. I am assuming my problem is Hexamita. But I am not using metronidazole. A study on Rainbow Trout and the control of H. salmonica found a number of non Metronidazole based drugs effective against Hexamita. A drug called diethyl carbamazine was used in a food preparation and was 100% effective. http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/33/d033p051.pdf. I have also found that diethyl carbamazine is used as a dog heart worm preventative and sold as dimmitrol 400mg 100tabs approx $14.00 over the counter in Australia. What does the audience think about this drug. I need to do pathology preps on slides on Monday to possibly diagnosed culprit. Hopefully start drug dosage tuesday. Fish not eating so need to use a bath preparation. Metronidazole dosage for food was 5g /kg while diethyl carbamazine 40g/kg. Any suggestions for bath concentration and time.

Dr Dave

[TW]

Hi Dave

I don't believe my fish problem was hexamita. These poops my discus had were much, much thicker than those I've seen pictured for hex.

Nothing saved my discus in the end. 3 out of 18 survived, but I don't think I cured them as such. More that they got sick and managed to somehow pull through, whereas the others didn't. I assume they are now carriers, so they live on in their own isolated tank.


Have you tried levamisole or prazi? They are also over the counter, but they don't treat hex but other internal worm types.

I didn't try dimmitrol & don't know anything about it other than it is for heartworms in dogs. I did once try some sort of dog wormer on some apistos, but I don't recall the brand or the active ingredient. Those fish were still eating, so I used it in food.

It sounds like you are doing your research! I wish I had some advice to offer on the dimmitrol use. Perhaps someone else here will know more. I am keen to hear how this turns out for you. Good luck.

[swampy1972]

TW,

I've just stumbled on this thread and wanted to offer my condolences. From your posts it sounds like you tried everything available to you and you take solice in that at least.

Can you let me know a bit about the Doxycycline you were using? I have access to 100mg tablets and was hoping you can share some of your findings with this med', i.e dosage, ailments to use it on etc.

Cheers,
Swampy.

[corlis]

tw Dimmitrol arrived two weeks after i ordered it. Had to try metro instead 10day method. Also tried levamisole and prazi. Same result as you had, no cure. Second fish with symptoms trying a second dose of levi and prazi. Just set up my microscope Olympus CH30 and camera will do slide poo specimens to see if I can identify problems. Did you ever get poo samples examined under microscope

[TW]

Can you let me know a bit about the Doxycycline you were using? I have access to 100mg tablets and was hoping you can share some of your findings with this med', i.e dosage, ailments to use it on etc. My Doxycycline was a powder form, prescribed by my vet. It's an antibiotic and used specifically to treat the septicaemia, which it did cure. It's not a wormer, so it was never intended that it would help with the internal parasite problem.


tw Dimmitrol arrived two weeks after i ordered it. Had to try metro instead 10day method. Also tried levamisole and prazi. Same result as you had, no cure. Second fish with symptoms trying a second dose of levi and prazi. Just set up my microscope Olympus CH30 and camera will do slide poo specimens to see if I can identify problems. Did you ever get poo samples examined under microscopeHi Dave, sorry you aren't having success either. Jothy and my vet did have a look at the poop samples under the scope, but this is really best done with fresh samples. The poop contained stomach lining, as well there were parasites present. Whatever type they were, they didn't respond to the usual meds that are known to work (and with which I've had previous success).

I know this sounds harsh and is not what you probably want to hear ..... but if I had that time over again, I would have tried the usual meds & when they failed, I would have humanely sent the infected fish to fish heaven. Trying to save them for such a long period of time caused the death of so many other fish.

Particularly if I had fish with the poop that looked like mine had, I would be very concerned. It's not the usual way fish with worm's poop looks, so this signalled that something different was happening. My vet, who is a fish keeper, had seen nothing like it. Neither had Jothy, who is very experienced.

I wish I had better advice to offer and I do hope you find your answer with your scope. Good luck. Keep us posted on the outcome.

[sayid]

hi TW
I am just going through your experience as we are talking ,my 3 years very healthy 17 cm marlboro red discus suddenly started discharging white poop similar to your photos (like bits of white silicon) ,this was about 8 weeks ago ,he has no other marks on his body and looks very healthy ,just does not eat.
i have treated him with Big L ,praziquantel ,metronidazole ,then i have taken him to the vet where he was tube fed with Enroflaxacin oral antibiotic daily for 7 days,he had some live black worm for a day but stopped again, my vet think that he has got fish T.B ,but the only way to prove that is to euthanize him follow by an autopsy and when i see him i cannot get my self to do it ,at least not yet , i have got 9 discus which if i have fish T.B in the tank they all will have it or they are carriers .
4 days ago i put him back in the display tank and treated the tank with kusuri hopping that might start him to eat ,nothing has happened yet.
what ever internal infection he has got ,has not completely gone away.
209352093620937

[ILLUSN]

Sorry to hear about that sayid.

Fish TB is a nasty systemic infection, it can fester under the surface for years not doing much then just pop up.

treatment is near impossible. I wouldn't get any more fish for a while and wait and see what happens to this one. should he look like he\s going to go belly up take him to the vet and get the autopsy done.

[sayid]

thanks ILLUSN for getting back to me .
Yesterday morning i came to conclusion that his times are coming to end even though he was looking very healthy but still refusing to eat. any way he is with the vet and i am waiting for the result of autopsy .
in the meantime i have got a UV 24 W and a UV 8 W sterilizers to help with reduction of bacteria ( i have no proof that it works but have no choice ).Diana Walstad advices to remove the surface lipid by using a surface skimmer but i am waiting for the results of autopsy first . i have got 2 other discus who are razor thin and despite eating they are loosing weight ,the result of autopsy will clear that.
Thanks for your interest and i will keep you up with the update.
sayid

[sayid]

hi illsun'
i have send you some detail under "my discus on hunger strike " but the short result from the vet was that there was no parasite ,there was abnormal large mass of cancer and no mycobacteria i.e fish T.B so i am happy.
thanks for your interest.
sayid