What do you guys think??

[Nic]

Gday fellas.
This is my proposed new tank setup. Thought id make sure itd be an ok setup with ur "experts"

Right.

TANK:
3ft with 150W heater and an Aquaworld 800 Internal filter.
Natural gravel subtrate with plant nutrient mix base.
Plenty of med-high light plants.

INHABITANTS:
x3 or 4 discus
x2 Pictus Catfish
X2 Blue or Gold Rams
X10 Rummynose Tetras
x10 Cardinal Tetras

and maybe a couple of others dependant on how i feel at the time and of course....the budget!!!
:lol:


Opinions would be apprieciated as a this will b my first discus tank

PS:

Wasnt sure about a couple of my current vieltail angels. Not quite sure so a heads up on that too would be good.


Cheers guys.

[Hollowman]

:shock:

Tell me you are not considering putting discus in this tank set-up!!

A 3ft tank holds about 118ltrs. An adult discus needs 40 to 50ltrs. I would only keep a confirmed pair in a tank this size, It would be bare bottom, no gravel or plants and I would be changing 50% of the water every other day.

If you want to stock the fish you have noted down, please do not put discus in there. There is just no room.

H :?

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

100% agree with Hollowman

[DiscusDave]

What is the actual volume of the tank - my 3 footer is 300L since it's 3x2x2?

[Nic]

I think its 3x2x2 if my memory serves me correctly....well...sounds like i may have to just cope with another community or just buy a 4 ft!!! :)

[TW]

Being 300 Litres, IMO, means you can put a group of discus in the tank. Adult discus need minimum of 45 L each, so you could easily fit 4 discus with room to spare.

[Hollowman]

I think its 3x2x2 if my memory serves me correctly..

A tank of that size puts a different swing on it as Robyn says. You are looking at 339L but that is a full volume.
Remember if you are going planted with gravel (yuk! - sand better) then you are going to have to calculate how much water will be displaced by the substrate and wood etc etc. I would then think on a group of 5 adults and some dither fish.
Also, if you are thinking of buying small (juvenile fish) a bare bottom tank will be far better or you face stunting growing fish if raised in a planted environment.

H :)

[jesx57]

(yuk-sand better)

I'd have to agree, I prefer sand by a long shot, very easy to keep clean.

[Nic]

But does sand compress down and show up fish and general waste more than gravel would?

[zar]

I will go aginst others and say it sounds good to me. The only thing I'd change is the filtration, I'd go for something more powerful, pref. a canister filter.
One thing I wouldn't do is buy juveniles and try grow them in that setup. Growing discus in a bare bottom tank is much much easier.

[Gone Fishing]

Hi All,
I too have a similar tank;

- 200ltr/55gal
- medium gravel
- 2-10~12cm Discus (that are doing brilliantly!!)
- 2-Med. to Large congo tetras (male)
- 2-10cm Clown Loaches
- 2-10cm Bristle nose catfish
- 2-med. Siamese Algae eaters
- 1- med. to Large Pearl Gourami
- 7-med. Cardinal Tetras
- 7-med. to large Rummy Nose Tetras
- In a heavily planted (Jebo Round style) tank
- 1- 2215 Eheim Canister Filter (with the pickup near the bottom and the outlet pointed diagonally towards the back of the tank, to get good water circulation, but not too turbulent and also have the outlet close to the top, to ripple the water to oxygenate it for the fish.
- I worked out a daily dose for each of my fertilizers("Seachem"; Excel, Potassium, Iron, Flourish)
- I add a waste control chemical to my tank once a week
- I also add a worked out daily dose of "Sera" Fishtamin vitamins.
- When I first planted, I used root fertilizers tablets (not too much) for each plant.
- I change 20% of my water every wednesday and weekend
- I change my white fine filter every week(where I get a very cheap alternative from clark rubber($15 for 1 by 1.5mtrs).
- water temp. 28.5~29'C
- Ph 6.7~6.8 (depending wether measured with lights on or off)
- Add Auburn Aquariums "Start Right B" (which is De-Ioniser & Electrolyte Salts) to new water
- Add Auburn Aquariums "Supa-Chlor Ammonia Remover" (which also removes Lime, Copper, Zinc, Aluminium and Iron) to new water.

Quite simply the plants and fish look great, I have no algae outbursts, the Ph is stable I have no Ammonia, no Nitrites, no greater than 20ppm of Nitrates and I have no Fatalities.
I hope all this woffelling helps somebody.

Many Kindly Fishy Regards
Jason

[Hollowman]

Hi Jason,

I would stick with what you have in there right now. Adding Discus to this tank would not really be good for them.
As has been said before, as a general rule of thumb, we say 10 gallons 45-50 liters per adult fish. I think if you want to go down the discus route, think about a minimal look, no plants, just wood roots and a thin sand bottom, this is much easier to handle and maintain.
Raising small discus of course is better done in a bare tank, but please ask for advice before you jump in.

H

[Gone Fishing]

Hi,
Hollowman, I don't need to add anymore discus to my tank I am happy as it is.

If you want to do a 50% water change every second day though thats your chose not mine!!

I was just making a point that one does not have to strain his back to maintain a rigorous water change program to keep happy healthy fish.

You don't have to grow discus out to 15 to 20cm to appreciate them.

BTW, I thought this section of the forum was called "The Amazon Garden".
Where's the amazon in a bare or near bare bottom tank!

And while I'm on a roll, (LOL!:) I am sick of the comments that recommend a 50% water change every second day, or for those real nutters, everyday!
I mean you can have a life and keep fish, surely!

Every time I go to any fish shop and say what was said in some of these forums about water changing, in regards to 50% or greater they nearly have to stop themselves from laughing.

I have spoken to fish shop owners who have kept fish themselves for over 20 years and said that you don't have to do this much maintainence. It is too much! You are likely to do more harm then good.

I am constantly told that a tank whose chemistry doesn't change too much is better left alone than chancing a chemistry change. SMALLER CHANGES!

I meant to add to my first posting by saying;
My lighting initially was very ordinary. I spruced it up a bit by changing my 3-30watt T8 Jebo globes with three Arcadia high performance 30watt T8 globes utilizing varying colour temps.
I also super glued some aluminium foil above the globes to get maximum flection of light that's available without upgrading to a more expensive option.

P.S. No offense intended. Just some things that need to be said.


Many Kindly Fishy Regards
Jason

[Hollowman]

I think you are having a laugh.

I even missed the fact you have discus, I would say you have been given wrong advice. You are well overstocked and yes, large water changes are needed to keep a healthy discus environment, fact. Have you heard of DOC's ?
Also again, who told you that the natural habitat of discus was heavily planted ? a lfs? it isn't, fact. Ask Heiko.

No offence intended, but I have never trusted the local fish shop owner, even if they have been in the trade for 20 years, they generally know nothing about the fish they trade, they don't need to. All they do is try to sell you 'wonder' products they you don't need, and where a water change will work better.

H

[Hollowman]

Hi,


BTW, I thought this section of the forum was called "The Amazon Garden".
Where's the amazon in a bare or near bare bottom tank!



While I am on a 'roll' too,

Where is the Amazon in these fish:

Congo Tetra.............Origin.....Africa
SAE's.......................Origin.....Asia
Clown Loach.............Origin.....Indonesia

I rest my case.

Also, please read this :
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/history/natural_habitats.shtml

H

[lpiasente]

You only have to look at the quality of discus at lps to know that most really don't know what they are talking about, they just think they do.

[Hollowman]

You only have to look at the quality of discus at lps to know that most really don't know what they are talking about, they just think they do.

I totally agree with you Leanne :wink:

[rwel4809]

If you want to do a 50% water change every second day though thats your chose not mine!!

I was just making a point that one does not have to strain his back to maintain a rigorous water change program to keep happy healthy fish.

BTW, I thought this section of the forum was called "The Amazon Garden".

And while I'm on a roll, (LOL!:) I am sick of the comments that recommend a 50% water change every second day, or for those real nutters, everyday!
I mean you can have a life and keep fish, surely!

Every time I go to any fish shop and say what was said in some of these forums about water changing, in regards to 50% or greater they nearly have to stop themselves from laughing.

I have spoken to fish shop owners who have kept fish themselves for over 20 years and said that you don't have to do this much maintainence. It is too much! You are likely to do more harm then good.

I am constantly told that a tank whose chemistry doesn't change too much is better left alone than chancing a chemistry change. SMALLER CHANGES!


Jason,

Please respect the experts on this website, such as Hollowman, who have many years experience with discus.

the guys at most lfs' do not know how to keep discus well and this is proven by the consistantly bad condition of their stock, as Leanne says, which are mostly underfed and stunted due to poor conditions.

This forum, on the main part, is dedicated to keeping discus, and most of us on here are constantly learning from each other as new information becomes available on how to keep discus healthy and happy.

I do not appreciate you refering to experienced members of this forum who gladly give their time and knowledge to assist other aquarists as 'nutters'.

personally, if a guy (or girl) in an lfs laughed at my water change regime I would walk right out of their shop - not before I probably pointed to a number of sick fish that they were keeping as evidence of their lack of knowledge on the subject.

Sorry for the rant, but quite frankly your comments are misguided and the misinformation you have provided could lead to inexperienced aquarists loosing their fish at a great financial and emotional cost.

Your comments and attitude are not appropriate for this forum. Please learn some respect, and do your homework before dishing out bad advice and slagging off other members.

Robert.

[1fish2fish3fish]

heres my 2 cents.. please, take no offence.. I know Im pretty much a nobody on the site, but heres my thoughts over this thread..

first, WE ARE ALL still learning about the hobby, no matter how long we have been in it, or as a so called expert compared to someone else.
We all have mishaps, deaths, sickness, etc.. and we analyse it to death, cause we want to know.
As far as the thread here, I dont think anyone told him the natural habitat for discus is planted!! He just keeps plants with Discus..why?..is that wrong!..Doesnt sound like hes just purchased them from the Amazon.
If its working for him so be it!!.. good for him..
LESS is MORE.... I do it... smaller more freq water changes rather than sucking it all up, would be less stressful from what I see...
Ive had my Discus for few months now...they are growing well..no BB tank ..they look fine..
and as I have said in this forum before.. NOT ALL LFS are useless..and have staff that dont know a thing..I cant tell you how many times Ive talked ppl out of buying the chemicals etc, and told them do this instead..w/ch blaa blaa.. infact today and yesterday..they said thanks its all fine now ,what you recommended worked..
Im no Heiko and Ive no masters / chemistry degree, but I do have knowledge on the hobby as an employee, and give good advise.
I do think wilds would need much more attention, but I dont think that is the case here.. for years most Discus have come accustom to easier conditions..your the ones keeping the fish that need the work.

Im with Jason on this one.. :lol:

[rwel4809]

WE ARE ALL still learning about the hobby, no matter how long we have been in it, or as a so called expert compared to someone else.
We all have mishaps, deaths, sickness, etc.. and we analyse it to death, cause we want to know.

agreed :)


LESS is MORE.... I do it... smaller more freq water changes rather than sucking it all up, would be less stressful from what I see...
Ive had my Discus for few months now...they are growing well..no BB tank ..they look fine..

good consistant water quality is everything for discus, and I agree that every effort should be taken with water changes to prevent dangerous swings in ph and temp :)


NOT ALL LFS are useless..and have staff that dont know a thing..I cant tell you how many times Ive talked ppl out of buying the chemicals etc, and told them do this instead..w/ch blaa blaa.. infact today and yesterday..they said thanks its all fine now ,what you recommended worked..

I glad that you are one of the good ones, hopefully the information that you are learning about discus (along with the rest of us) will be passed on to your clients. :)


most Discus have come accustom to easier conditions..your the ones keeping the fish that need the work.


I disagree here. All Discus, whether wild or not, need good water conditions and regular maintanence - domestics are not an easy option.

R.

[1fish2fish3fish]

"Sorry for the rant, but quite frankly your comments are misguided and the misinformation you have provided could lead to inexperienced aquarists loosing their fish at a great financial and emotional cost."

Sooooo, no one but a certain few are allowed to give advise..if it workes for this guy and he would like to post it, why not..
you say have some respect!!.. wheres the respect, for when I go into sooo many threads and you bash the LFS emplyees, dont you think some of us use theses site too..you all need to word things better,..
im finding myself less and less on this site cause of these things..your all experts..whoo hoo..
easy does it as you all post...

[Hollowman]

wheres the respect, for when I go into sooo many threads and you bash the LFS emplyees, dont you think some of us use theses site too.....

1fish'
I think we have discussed this before, of course there are exceptions to the rules, and thank goodness for people like you, but sadly this is not always the case. I think we need to know exactly where you are so members in your country can find great advice. Please post more. I am sorry if I upset you.

I am no Heiko, I am no expert, I may post a lot, but my logic follows simple common sence and experiences, not just mine but the real experts here and friends on my own forum.

We do all have our own ways of doing things as we all live different lives with different commitments, so maintenance regimes can vary. But as a passionate keeper of these fish, I want only the best conditions. It has been proven that large frequent water changes and a good diet keeps fish healthy and leads to optimal growth, just look at the fish that come out of Singapore and Malaysia or Germany. These people cannnot be wrong. In our countries, we can only try to emulate the conditions either that the fish were raised in, domestic strains, or try to immitate the natural eco system, both are difficult and require time to get right, both involve large water changes.

I understand that not everyone wants a show fish, some people like and are happy with a stunted fish, and that is fine,, they can live a happy life in a planted or bare tank. But my experience tells me that once someone learns a bit about discus, they soon realise the difference between a poorly raised fish and a quality fish, and want to do better.

Our purpose as a forum is to assist or guide everyone who asks for help, this is done via our experiences. What I don't like however is wrong advice that might lead less experienced keepers to make mistakes which can be very costly and painfull.
If I make comments that upset anyone, I am sorry, really. Everyone has their opinion, I just voice mine and am happy to be corrected if wrong.

H

[1fish2fish3fish]

K.. yes.. let me rephrase that a bit,
IMO and my experience lets just say all fish need better, good, excellent water conditions to thrive..we all know water quality is everything.
its all in balance, from what I have seen and learnt myself..
everyones tank is different, size, fish , PH etc..what might work for one may not work for another, simple, but we all have the right here I feel to state what does work for us.
Discus are not as hard as they used to be to keep!, I have many friends that keep them and they look just like the ones here, big healthy, and are number of yrs old, alot of the keepers here have wonderful Discus and like to go to the extreme to keep them, which is fine, most have purchased Discus from breeders over the yrs that are kept in this type of water, so they must.
So over a period of time as fish become accustom to the water which they live, a tank may look fine, ( I see this alot ) which it will for a long time as ppl clean it maybe once a month or longer, dont do vacs for months and months..they come to buy more fish " wanna add 3 more neons"..then show up in 3 days "their dead" you sold me sick fish.. nope I didnt.. well my tank was fine till I added these?? perfect time to have a chat ,if there willing to listen.. almost all times this is the case..
some ppl say they have the right set up, how do you know for sure?

Heres my 40gal set-up..just a quick run down..half of these fish a yrs old
upside down cat 7+ yrs ( a centimetre when bought )
2 4-5 inch clown loaches 1+ yrs
2 4in bumblebee catfish 1+ yrs
1 2-3 in Sumoloach 6 months or so, great little fish
5 black neons, hugh and fat 2 yrs, did lose one at first
6 neons , same 2 yrs
6 rummy nose 2 yrs, lost one at first
1 blue gouramis 4 +in about 2 yrs
1 long fin Danio since start of set-up 4 yrs ago, lost other 3 to cycling
1 2-3 in algae loach
1 panda angel 3+ in round 2 yrs ( size of dime when bought )
1 veintail angel 2 in round 1+ yrs ( size of dime when bought )
1 2 in checkerboard cichlid 6 months
and just added another 1 inch angel.
over stocked?? I think, compatible? somewhat, doing well yes, Im enjoying my tank,and pleased.
lots of driftwood, 1 silk plant, and some hornwort dropped in.
thats just 1 of my tanks...

[1fish2fish3fish]

yah! thank goodness for ppl like me.. I love my job and the work involved, more so when I know Ive helped people in the hobby at hand. Its a good feeling, I take pride in that. sorry but I did take offence to it.. when it posted..
Its Discus we are talking about, I know, and they do Differ from other fish. Im new to them myself..
I understand your concern for miss leading advise to others..
he was just stating his set-up here for the poster to see, not saying do it this way..
IMO nothing wrong in him posting it..

[rwel4809]

Sooooo, no one but a certain few are allowed to give advise..if it workes for this guy and he would like to post it, why not..
you say have some respect!!.. wheres the respect, for when I go into sooo many threads and you bash the LFS emplyees, dont you think some of us use theses site too..you all need to word things better,..
im finding myself less and less on this site cause of these things..your all experts..whoo hoo..
easy does it as you all post...

You obviously did not read my previous post, have another look, I agree with you on most points.

Sorry that you are so upset - you must be a very good fish keeper to be able to keep such a diverse and well stocked tank happy and healthy.

Unfortunately not all of us are as skilled and so we have to stick to the rules in order to keep our fish healthy.

R.

[Nic]

Wow guys...
Ease up.
I only wanted to know if that tank would be ok.....
clearly it isnt going to b.
Just calm down!

Thx for all your help...it really hasnt done much for me.

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

Firstly ......

OMG - that took some serious concentration to read all of those posts lol. some heated discussing going on there ... :lol:

right ... back to the ORIGINAL post of this thread ...



Wow guys...
Ease up.
I only wanted to know if that tank would be ok.....
clearly it isnt going to b.
Just calm down!

Thx for all your help...it really hasnt done much for me.

Nic,

Your setup will be FINE mate - yes, people will tell you Discus are schooling fish - keep them in a school of 5 or more fish - you don't have to. You have to remember - the advise people will give you is a guide - just as H-man said in his post up ^^ there some where - its not the 'holy bible of Discus' and you don't have to stick to it - as H-Man also said - other users of this forum will mostly give you advice to get you out of tricky situations.

Yes your tank will be fine for 3 maybe 4 discus and a few other fish - when you said you had a 3 ft tank - i didn't realize it was a 3x2x2 - my appoligies for my first post saying it wouldn't be suitable.

good luck with your setup - check your water parameters regularly - maybe if you have a good bacteria colony and lots of plants - you wont need to do 50% water change a day - maybe you will only need to do one twice a week and graven vac the poop off the bottom - good luck, take care of your fish but most of all - as I'm sure EVERYONE will agree - HAVE FUN with your new discus setup!

[Hollowman]

:lol: Nic, none of that was directed at you, passions do run high sometimes, but we all get on really. What we don't want is for someone new to discus to get the wrong info from the start. George has given good advice, but don't be shy to ask more questions.
:wink:
H

[TW]

Yes Nic, your tank is fine for 4 discus, with room to spare. There's 3ft tanks & there's 3ft tanks. Your's is a big 3ft tank :D

Going on 1 discus per 45 litre rule, you can actually have 6. But because you will have to deduct some water volume to allow for gravel, plants, etc maybe 4-5 would be a better number.

[Nic]

Yer guys no offence taken...:)

Thx for ur help and im sure itll all be worth it wen i have the setup i want!!!

Ill make sure i keep u all posted!!!

[Gone Fishing]

Hi All,
I think I should shallow my pride and admit defeat! :oops:

You were are all right, 100% correctamondo!! :P

In regards to the water changes. I didn't want to do so much because it was killing me with all those buckets to drain and to refill, since then I have revised my technique and used no buckets at all, well ...except to pick up poop and gunk from the bottom with a small gravel vac. I use no more than one 20ltr bucket, but now I do 50% every second day and yes it's easy, painless and very rewarding to the eye!! :D

The method is using some reasonably cheap 19mm O.D. clear plastic hose, push it over a neat fitting white PVC piping, create 90 degree connections and straight pieces into my tank so it sits halfway into the water by itself and then run the other end into a cheap plastic funnel, with part of it cutoff so as not to restrict and slow the water, and into the drain in the laundry floor(I can unscrew my drain cover and sit the funnel in where it sits by itself as well). This is so I don't dirty the end of the hose
, then I put the chemicals into the hose and turn on both hot and cold full bore! :twisted:

I find the only catch is that I have to get someone to turn on and off the taps while I hold the other end, so it splays against the glass and not disturb the fish or the gravel too much.

Oh, and yes the temp. is just where I want it, at 28.5~29Degrees.

Sorry for all the hooplar :(

Now,...my tank looks fantastic. :D It's crystal clear, my Cardinals are full colour red and blue, my rummy nose even puts Rudolph to shame!. I'm not finished yet.. my siamese algae eaters are shiny and it looks like I can put my hand straight through and grab the fish without busting through the glass. Oh... and yes I don't recognize my Discus anymore they even more colourful, vibrant and, if fish can be happy they're ecstatic and roam all around they are more calm and even spend more time at the front!! :P

Thanks again!

...and if anyone questions the water changes again please refer them to my belated experiences.

Many, Many, Many, Kindly Fishy Regards
Jason

[rwel4809]

Good to here your getting some great results with Water Changes Jason :)

You'll have to post some pics now that your tank is looking so great
8-)




The method is using some reasonably cheap 19mm O.D. clear plastic hose, push it over a neat fitting white PVC piping, create 90 degree connections and straight pieces into my tank so it sits halfway into the water by itself and then run the other end into a cheap plastic funnel, with part of it cutoff so as not to restrict and slow the water, and into the drain in the laundry floor(I can unscrew my drain cover and sit the funnel in where it sits by itself as well). This is so I don't dirty the end of the hose
, then I put the chemicals into the hose and turn on both hot and cold full bore! :twisted:


You might want to be careful using the hot tap for water changes, there are often lots of nasties in hot water...

If you can find a space for a barrel to add chemicals, age and heat your water before you add it to the tank it would be a lot safer IMO...

The barrel needs to be food grade plastic. The kind that people use for water storage or home brewing are perfect - I found one very cheap on ebay...

HTH

R.

[Gone Fishing]

It's alright the chemical that I add to my tank, not only removes chlorine at 2ml/8ltr, it also removes hydrated lime, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, zinc, copper, aluminium and iron.
It's called Supa-Chlor Ammonia Remover, sold from Auburn Aquarium.

Many Kindly Fishy Regards
Jason

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Jason,

I know that what you are using does a lot but it may be doing more than you want. You need to understand that Zinc, Copper and Iron are essential nutrients for animals.

Iron is also essential for healthy plant growth.

I think that down the track this may cause you some problems.

Regards,

Bob

[Gone Fishing]

Yeh good one, I'll ask Wayne at auburn aquarium. I think he said he went to Uni. and did something like marine biology. I'm betting he'll know, especially when he sold it to me.

Many Kindly Fishy Regards
Jason