Headstanding discus

[Trebs]

I got a pair of blue diamonds about three weeks ago and they are currently in a 4ft QT.

In the last two days the male has started headstanding and has a bulge just behind the middle of it's spine - which I presume is the swim bladder. The bulge isn't huge but it is noticeable.

Last night I treated with epsom salts, 2 teaspoons per 10gallons. There is no noticeable improvement this morning.

I've researched a number of sources which all seem to have conflicting ideas on what the problem is and how to solve it.

Does anyone know how to fix this problem?

[Trebs]

No improvement after using epsom salts. I treated with aquari-cycline tablets (contains tetracycline) on Saturday night. I'll see if this has any effect.

[Merrilyn]

Trebs can you get a photo. The swim bladder isn't up near the spine, so it may be something else altogether. Is he doing this all the time, or just sometimes. Still eating, or off his food?

[Trebs]

It's doing it constantly. I can't get a photo at the moment.

The lump is slightly to the rear of the body, half way between top and bottom. It looks like it's got a marble in there. The lump is 2cms long by 1-1.5cms high. It potrudes about 5mm either side of the fish. This is a big well fed fish.

I not sure if he's eating, I have been fasting the tank for a few days after I noticed it in case it was an intestinal blockage - he has plenty of condition so missing a few days won't hurt. I'll see if he's eating today.

Thanks.

[nicholas76]

It does sound like an intestinal blockage.

what colour is its waste?

Id still persist with more salts at this stage.

what do you think lady red?

[Trebs]

No joy with the tetracycline.

He hasen't been eating so can't say too much about his poop. The lump is just behind the middle of the fish just under the lateral line. To my understanding this would be too far back for the swim bladder and gut of the fish.

The owner of my LFS came over on Friday night and had a look. They thought it was worms or nodes. They said to treat with sterazin which I have started to do.

Fish is still stable and looking the same. The longer this goes on the worse for the fish it will be.

[nicholas76]

It really is a shame when somthing like this occurrs.

You have to question what type of diet this fish was on prior to enetering your own tank.

It might pay to try and find this out.

generally in my experience fish that have a boring diet ( one thing ) or are fed too much LFS meat will be at more risk at bloackage than other fish.


Can i suggest trying live food ( brime shrimp ) natures own clean out food.

Can you do another large water change and a heavier dosage of salt.

This practise is a llittle unorthodox but have you considered cradling the fish and applying a small amount of pressure on the bump ( like your giving it a back rub ). It can work.

keep us posted

[Trebs]

It certainly did suffer from a monotonous diet before I got a hold of it. Some one I know had kept it there tank for about a year before I got him. It got mostly dried food (sera discus granuals). It's had a better diet since I've had it. That's the thing, in the first 2 weeks I had it the colour and condition of the fish improved a fair bit from when it was in the old tank. Now this happens.

I'm happy to try salt again but I don't want to disrupt the sterzin treatment. If I can add salt without changing the water and keeping the sterzin course up I'll do that but I don't want to mix a cocktail in there or do any large w/c's.

My feeling still is that the lump is too far back in the fish for it to be the swim bladder/gut. See pic below for an indication of where the lump is located.

I have some frozen brine shrimp, I'll try that. I have some freeze dried eggs I can try to hatch out also.

Thanks for the reply.

[Trebs]

It's day 8 of the sterizin treatment. I'm pretty sure it isn't worms as the condition hasen't changed since the start of the treatmernt. Also I haven't observed any worms being past. The female who is healthy and uneffected has black poop as per normal.

The condition has not improved but has not dteriorated either. If it was caused by worms I'd expect the size and shape of the lump to change?

He's getting skinny now and hasn't been eating during the treatment. Luckily he's a huge fish which will give me some time but I need to get him eating again soon.

[Merrilyn]

Trebs, this one has got me stumped. The only thing that comes to mind is a tumor now. Have you felt the lump. Is it mobile, like fluid or hard like a growth of some kind. I'll do some research today and see what I can come up with. In the meantime, try to tempt him to eat with some live food.

[nicholas76]

Hi guys,

lady red I had experienced this with friends fishes before on two occasions.


1. with the first fish we dislodged it by doing what i said above manipulating the bump carefully and it worked its way out like gass. We couldnt believe our eyes when it virtually disappeared.

2. with the second fish step one didnt work. It was almost dead so we knocked it on the head and did an examination. We found it to be a lump full of fluid,: tumor.



just my ten cents

[wyldchyld01]

fish can get and i'm sure ladyred would have seen this with her bettas, co2 bubbles in their bodies, more often than not it shows in their fins but maybe it could be under the scales as well,

nicholas76 your first experience suggests this to me, the second well yeah tumour or something else,

i'd try and feel the lump as suggested, if you really love it you could try lancing it with a fine needle and treat with antiseptics

Brenton

[Trebs]

I just had him out then. The lump is soft and movable. I gently rubbed it from on side to see if it was mobile front to back, the lump stayed put.

How is the best way to massage the lumps? Do I work it up, down, toward the front or back?

[Trebs]

Quick update,

My girlfriend took the male blue diamond to a vet in waterloo this afternoon. Under the microscope it was found to have a severe infestation of gill flukes. He also gave it a direct injection of antibiotics for the lomp which is believed to be a bacterial infection.

I'm going to treat with praziquantel for the next week and see how it goes.

The vet bill was $130.

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for that update Trebs. Did he say the lump could cause the head standing. I hope his diagnosis is correct, and your fish recovers with the antibiotics.

Treat the female for gill flukes, as no doubt, she will be infected too.

[Trebs]

Male is doing better after injection and first prazi treatment. Headstanding is now chin standing. He has started eating again. I'll post the regime and diagnosis described by the vet when I have a few minutes.

[Merrilyn]

So glad to hear things are improving. Looking forward to your post.

[Trebs]

Here is a pic. It's a pretty bad photo but you can kind of see the lump.

[Merrilyn]

Trebs is he still doing this, or has he improved now.

[Trebs]

The pic was taken last night. He had improved after the vet. He's still eating but the headstanding is back to where it was before.

The vet gave my girlfriend some flagyl and some panacur. These are supposed to fix the lump. He said not to use these until treating for gill flukes with prazi' tablets four times at weekly intervals (I did the second treatment on Sunday, I'm also using a fair amount of salt). From what I can gather he thinks the flukes are a bigger problem - I don't think I agree with that but at this stage I'll do what he perscribed. I'm not really hopeful at this stage. If the lump has been caused by internal parasites I think too much damage will have been done by the time I can treat. By the end of the flukes treatment it will be over two months.

[Trebs]

The vet's instructions where to start the flagyl before the third treatment of prazi. I treated with flagyl on Saturday and again yesterday. I've moved both fish to a smaller tank to conserve meds. The flagyl treatment is for 3 days, treating each day after a 30% water treatment. It's pea soup in there at the moment so I'll just have to see when it clears up.
The panacur was just something to keep on hand, not specifically for the treatment.

[Trebs]

He hadn't looked good since the second trip to the vet. It was very stressed and jumped out of the tank on Saturday night when I wasn't home.

I learnt a few lessons from this, you don't want your discus to get swim bladder problems and that 'Fluke and Tapeworm Tablets' by Aqua Master works a lot better than sterizin for treating gill flukes.

Thanks for the imput everyone, I think it a situation that was never likely to have a happy ending.

[Merrilyn]

So sorry to hear that, and especially after you worked so hard.

[Trebs]

My wallet is still burning. Would have been a great fish to breed as it's really hard to get good bd's.