My Discus looks really sick...

[Melsy]

One of my 5 discus is quite sickly looking, he is a turq so im used him going dark now and then when he's grumpy (ie during water changes..) but he has been really dark all day and is now acting very strange, in fact all of my discus are acting a bit off...im sure there is something bad going on:
- He is really dark and very dull looking
- He has an inflamed red look at the bottom of his front fins
-He is really twichty, like when his back fin is moving it does this funny thing that reminds me of a long shiver.
-He's very moody, if any of the other discus come near him, he gives them a go.
-It sometimes looks like he could be could be rubbing his body against stuff
-He doesnt have any white spots on his body, but on his top fin, there is a kinda whitey bit that looks like he's been scratched
-My large adult discus has this long thin cotton strand like thing coming off him, so im worried that it may be a fungal infection.
When I came home today I noticed his behaviour so I did a 40% water change (treated w declorinator as usual), I fed them, he wasnt too intersted in food but the others ate.
Havent tested the water conditions today as I just did a water change, so didnt thing they'd be all that accurate yet, but I will test for everything in a few hours when the water has cycled through tank and filter.
Can anyone indicate what this may be, and/or how to fix it?!
He has been living fairly happily in there for awhile..
I added some other fish about 4 days ago, I had them quarantined in another tank wen i got them with quite hardy fish, thinking they were fine I added them but now im starting to think I've made a terrible mistake and Ive introduced something horrible!!! :(

[Melsy]

He is still very dark, and is hiding in the darkest spot in the tank, and kind of on his side
I've done some research...its so hard to know whats right and whats wrong...Im thinking it could be Discus Plague....sounds so terrible!

This is what ive read...
Fishes infected with Discus Plague-
- lose their natural coloring, turn dark
-become reclusive
-huddle in a dark corner of the tank
-Heavy mucus secretions on the skin,
-severe fin rot
-scratching or rubbing against objects
-rapid breathing are also characteristic symptoms of Discus Plague.
Upon close examination, the fins of sick fish may exhibit clear, non-pigmented areas where the tissue appears have dissolved. The mucus layer will also appear streaky where the fish has been rubbing against objects. Even though infected fishes appear to be very sick, they continue to eat, although sparingly. When feeding, they move in a tight school to the food, and retreat together to a dark corner. Some fish may even lie horizontally on the top or bottom of the tank, trying to hide in the merest shadow!
Cause:

Due to a bacterial infestation from any or all of the following bacteria: Hexamitiases, Pseudomonas, Streptococcus, Chondrococcus columnares and Aeromonas. This disease is typically introduced into an aquarium by a new fish, plants, decorations, or live food. The carrier is usually not a sick fish, but rather a healthy fish or plant from a tank which harbored the disease in the past. Fish will begin to display the symptoms described above within 3 to 5 days after exposure. Mature adult fish appear to suffer the most severe symptoms, often dying within the first few days of the disease.

It all seems to add up...does anyone have any experience with this or recommendations??!!
The temp is 30, should I raise it?
Also how gradually should I reduce PH, should I be worried about PH shock.
And what about meds??
And I have 3 gouramis and 10 sml tetras in there, should they be moved out of tank before medicating, or will they need medicating too?

Sorry for the slabs of text and the many questions

Cheers
Mel

[Hollowman]

No QT :roll:
No testing of water :roll:

Help us to help you my friend, get your water tested. What frequency of water changing are you doing ? andhow much?

Let us know quick

[Melsy]

Oh my god! I think I have almost killed me fish! I thought I was so prepared but I clearly wasnt.
The ammonia spike is the worst part:

GH = 5
KH = 5
pH = 6.8 -7
NitrIte = 0
NitrAte = 0
Ammonia = 1.0-2.0 !!!!

How in the world is the ammonia so high, my tank has been cycling since early January, prob 3 months. I have one idea, I put 10 glass shrimp in about 3 weeks ago, and about a day later I couldnt find any....I figured they'd become an expensive discus dinner... is there any chance one has got stuck under or in something and is rotting??!! What do I do now?? I have some stuff called "AquaClear Ammonia Remover" that I can put in my filter?? Should I do this, what about a 50 or 100% water change, would this stress them too much or is it pretty much essential?
I normally do about 40% every 5 days....but this is not enough...

Please please someone help, I dont want to lose my fish, they have become a part of me and I would be completly devo....and please give me all the lecturing I need!! But honestly I think I have truly learnt my lesson big time:

30% 3 times a week
Water testing once a week
And no more other fish in there unless QT!

But what do I do now?????!!!

:cry:

[Hollowman]

We have a product called Ammo lock, it neutrilises ammonia, but you need to get to the cause of the ammonia, not mask it with products. BIG regular water changes will be best, for now to get rid of it. 50% a day for now. Stop feeding for a couple of days, it will add to the problem, and the fish won't worry, they can go without ok. Are you planted or BB? If planted, I would do some serious cleaning, deep gravel vac, get rid of as much rubbish as possible. Keep testing before you water change for Ammonia and nitrIte, both are toxic to fish and should, in a mature tank read zero.

Good luck, hopefully ILLUSN might be able to offer more help when he gets on.

H :)

[ILLUSN]

ok a few pointers, when you "cyc;ed" your tank what did you use as an ammonia source? i prefer a dead prawn, but clear ammonia works well.

now that you have ammonia your only choice is massive water changes, I'd be doing 2 per day, as much as you can, if you do a 90% change you'll get your ammonia down to 0.1-0.2 if you do a second 90% change (drain and fill and drain and fill again) you'll have it down to 0.01-0.02 much safer, also have some salt on hand, once you get over the ammonia stage you'll need to add salt at 2tsp/40L to stop "brown blood disease" as your NO2 creeps up.

if you can lower the ph to 5.5 this will force the ammonia (NH3) to become ammonium (NH4) nh4 is much less toxic.

the best thing you can do is go get some media from a cycled tank, you dont need a lot, 1/2-1L will be plenty, the used media will "seed" your filter.

Unfortunatrely theres nothing you can do other than massive daily changes for the next 6 weeks as your filter matures. use AMMO LOCK as steve sugested this stuff binds ammonia but does not remove it so your fish will be ok but your bacteria will still be able to metabolise it, just add the salt to stop NO2 poisoining.

[Melsy]

Thanks Steve and Illusn, your help is invaluable.

I have added the Ammonia Remover pouch to my filter, I gather its the same as Ammo Lock?! I have also removed plants, I only had a very small amt of gravel left in my tank (as I removed about 90% of it a couple of days ago, to go bare bottom), so I moved it all around and vaccumed up everything I could find. So its basically almost bare bottom,
I have just changed 50% of the water (before I got ur posts) , Im going to change 80% in another few hours, and I have some stuff that brings pH down so I will gradually do that, with the 50% change Ive just done Ive noticed already a very slight improvement, Im just hoping that the high ammonia only came about in the last day or two, and hopefully with the pH at 7ish it was only ammonium.
So Illusn, do I only add the salt once the Ammonia is 0? Not before? Brown blood poinsoning sounds irreversible!
I dont have access to another cycled tank (that I would be confident in adding water from) so your other suggestion isnt really possible..
We dont have access to clear ammonia here apparently, and I would get shot if there was the smell of a rotting prawn in the house for 2 months! I added a couple of really small hardy fish to cycle the tank, they are still living in there quite happily. Its just hard to beleive that after all the reading Ive done that Ive failed so badly, I just feel like a bit of a disappointment

[Melsy]

Oh also, the salt that I use, is it marine salt??

Cheers, Mel

[ILLUSN]

ammonia remover isn't always a good thing, most of the time its zeolite based, this media locks up ammonia and removes it from the water all together, this is bad for 2 reasons
1. if the ammonia is removed your filter bacteria cannot use it as food to grow
2. when you add salt the zeolite releases any stored ammonia back into your water hurting your fish VERY badly.

ammolock is a liquid that binds ammonia into a state where it cannot harm fish, but bacteria can still metabolise it, it will still read positive on your ammonia test kit.

this seems to be the only non comercial info i can find on the product, i usually use the pond version as its much more effective

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art37918.asp

the salt you want to add is just plain rocksalt, its cheep as chips from the supermarket, you could also use marine salt but this is expensive, pool salt is another VERY cheep alternative but you'll have to store a 20kg bag of it.

[Melsy]

Thanks Illusn, I think maybe i'll take that stuff out of the filter then...
Took water to LFS for full analysis yesterday, as the drop test kits dont give exact readings, this was about 2hrs after waterchange
pH was 6.6
ammonia was 0.40
nitrate and nitrite were both 0.01.

I did another 50% water change last night, woke up this morning to find my fishy friends looking very improved, but I know they still have a long way to go!
Reading from this morning:
pH = 6
Ammonia = 0.25-0.40
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate =0
I also have added a product called "Pimafix" by aquarium pharmaceuticals, which states it rapidly treats fungal infections on body and fins, cottony growth, fin and tail rot, redness of skin and body, also treats internal and external bacteria infections, its active ingredient is Pimenta Racemosa (Bay Oil - 9.8g/L)..does anyone have any experience with this stuff? It seems to work, I noticed that the cottony growths (which i think to be fungal) are coming off the fish body and floating in the water, so ive just been siphoning them out when I see them.

Im now a little concerned as I have to go away for 3 days, and cant get out of it, but Im doing a big water change before I go, and will do another as soon as I get home, fingers crossed all is well........

[DiscusDave]

Do you have any Prime? It's works the same as ammo-lock, converts the ammonia to a form which isn't toxic but can still be used by your filter bacteria (Seachem confirmed this to me by email). In an emergency you can add 4 times the normal dose.

Pimafix and Melafix are ok, but over used in my opinion. They're good at treating minor injuries and abrasions but for anything more than that I would use a real medicine.

[Melsy]

Thanks discusdave, so I need either Seachem Prime, or Ammo Lock, and I did a bit of a search on Pimafix, and from Illusn's suggestions, looks like Protozin by Waterlife is better that Pimafix...but since its a public holiday, I dont much like my chances of finding a pet or aquarium store open! doh
Latest update on fish: 4 looking fine, and hopefully will make a full recovery, but the one fish who was the one I mentioned intially is def better but still has his fin clamped, dunno if thats a good sign...

Illusn, how long after taking that ammonia remover satchel out of the filter would it be safe to add the salt?

Cheers
Mel (starting to feel a little relief - thanks to you guys)

[Hollowman]

Add salt as directed right away.

As for the Melafix/primafix, I will disagree with Dave here. They do nothing imo. You can achieve all the benefits you need by regular water changes, not by throwing 'so called' remedies at them. In my experience, no-one I know, who is 'in the know' use these products, I think they are just a money spinner thay prey on people who want to do the right thing. Good clean water is the real medecin here.

:)

[ILLUSN]

steves on the money, the moment you remove the zeolite you can add salt as your now reading NO2 your cycle is starting, keep up the water changes, if you can try and find some filter media in your area.

IMO pimafix and melafix do NOTHING for discus, they work great for betta's, goldfish/koi and livebearers but for discus they are no good.

[Melsy]

Thanks all for your input...

Things are on the up...well I should say down ;)

Ammonia is still going down, checked this morning was down to .50, I removed the ammonia remover pouch, have added Ammo-Lock, and have also added the salt, still doing large water changes to get the ammonia down to 0, pH is 6 and nitrite and nitrate still reading 0.

Discus looking really well, I have learnt my lesson the hard way, and will be treating Illusn and Hollowmans wisdom as 'gods words' in future!
cheers to discusdave too!

[Goerge_of_the_Jungle]

how are things going with your fishies?

I hope everything is back under control now.

[Melsy]

Hi George,

Thanks for your interest....they are going well, still all alive and kicking, thankfully!

Im still doing 30% daily water changes, and I now understand the job title "permanent water changer"! Still getting ammonia readings, I guess this is becuase the bacteria colony is still growing, I really need to get a hold of that bacta boost, but dont get to melbourne all that often!

But im keeping the ph down around 5 or 6 so this is keeping the toxicity of the ammonia at bay.

Cheers

Mel

[Hollowman]

Good going Mel, just keep on top of the ammonia, and monitor the nitrIte.
Keep us informed :)