Questions about water changes...

[donrusso1478]

I have the python no spill system. My brother seems to think that when i do water changes I am cycling my tank all over again because tap water is going straight into the tank without being treated. Now I am currently having a nitrate problem that i cant seem to get rid of. Is this because i am pouring tap water into the tank without treating it? I am under the impression that if i caused my tank to go through a nitrogen cycle over and over again then at some point i would see amonia go up then nitrite and nitrate... But that never happens. The nitrates are high but i cant get rid of them. I am trying to prepare the tank to be a planted discuss tank please help.

[Hollowman]

High nitrates can be a pain, but exactly how high?
Water changing does not mean you are re-cycling. Your filter system is what carries the bio media where your nitrifying bacteria grow. Water changing gets rid of built up DOC's and allows you to removed any ditrious materials in your tank, fish waste/uneaten food etc

What i do notice, is that you are using water straight from the tap without using a dechlorinator, not good!! chlorine in tap water will burn your fish's gills, so you must treat your water prior to adding to the tank. I would also contain your water for 24 hours before use, this will help stabilise your ph.

hth

H :wink:

[donrusso1478]

my nitrate levels are off the charts right now. ill check them again tonight to get an exact answer for you. so how do i remove nitrates? do i just wait until my lighting comes in and fill the tank with plants? or is there some other way to remove them?

[Hollowman]

For now, check your water out of the tap to see what the nitrAtes are. Then check your tank. Don't panic....... yet :wink:

[donrusso1478]

ok here we go tank water vs tap water make sure your sitting down for this... keep in mind i just did a 40 - 50% water change this past saturday.

Tank: / Tap:
Nitrate 80ppm / 0ppm
Nitrite .5ppm / 0ppm
Amonia 0ppm / 0ppm
GH 300ppm / 75ppm
KH 120ppm / 80ppm
PH 7.2 / 6.8

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

The significant changes in General, Carbonate Hardness and Ph would indicate to me that there is something in your tank that is turning into dissolved solids with an Alkaline base.

Take samples of your sand, any ornaments, driftwood and so forth and stand them in your tap water for a good few hours then repeat your measures. This should go some way to identifying the cause.

Not sure what would be causing your nitrate and nitrite spike though.

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

Ok maybe this has something to do with it... I used to have 3 13 inch oscars plus a red tail catfish and texas cichlid and 2 jack dempseys. When I had them in the tank I had problems with ph so a guy at the local fish store told me if I wanted to bring up my ph that an easy way to do it is to ad crushed coral to my canister filter. So I bought some and since I have a fluval fx5 I put 2 bags in my filter and my ph has been in the 7 range ever since. Could this be my problem?

[Hollowman]

I think I know what your problem is.

How often are you water changing?
What volume do you normally change?
Do you have a substrate ie gravel/sand?
How many fish are in the tank?
Do you when water changing clean said substrate?
How much and how often do you feed your fish?
What do you feed your fish?
Do you clean up uneaten food within an hour of feeding?

Ok, answer that lot of question as fully as you can please.














I see also you have a nitrIte reading.......you shouldn't be reading any, it is highly toxic.

Ok, I think you are getting the high readings beacuse you are not doing enough maintenance. You are probably overfeeding and leaving uneaten food in the tank to rot. All foods contain phosphates, which if you are not removing by regular water changes will give the high nitrAtes.
As a suggestion, you need to do some homework on how to look after discus properly. Not saying you don't care for the fish, but they do require the highest water quality, which can only be achieved by some regular work.
At each water change, and I am going to say at least 30% 3 times a week, you need to deep clean your substrate, and also wipe down the glass sides, back and front of the tank with kitchen paper towel before you change the water. After each feeding, siphon out all uneaten food within an hour. If you don't it will get trapped and rot.

These are just a few things I can think of right now. I might be able to answer more when I know how you are doing things

hth

H :)

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

If you still have the crushed coral in your filter that will be effecting the Ph, Kh and Gh readings. For discus you want soft acidic water, your tapwater readings seem okay though many people work a bit lower for all these parameters.

See how you go by removing the crushed coral and if you can add some peat moss to the filter instead. You may find that will slightly lower the above three parameters.

Is the tank inhabited yet?

Do you have any plants in yet?

Is it possible that there is still waste material in the tank from the previous inhabitants?

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

Ok here we go I was advised to do water changes once every 2 weeks so that is what I have always done. Right now my tank is empty. There definitely could be some waste material still, I did do a 50% water change last Saturday I have no plants yet because my light hasn't come in yet. The crushed coral is easy to remove because i have it in media bags. Do you think I should start new with all new media right now I have ammonia remover, carbon, the ceramic noodles chemipure elite and the crushed coral. Should I keep using the media have chosen or should i change it? Where can I get peat moss? That sounds like exactly what i need... This is my plan im going to do another water change this weekend then when my light comes in i will add plants to the tank i will let the plants grow and make the water balance out then add my fish. Is there anything I should change?

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

Ok here we go I was advised to do water changes once every 2 weeks so that is what I have always done.

As everyone here will tell you Discus are more demanding than other fish, even when I was keeping Asians or other South Americans I would do at least 20% water change every week.

There definitely could be some waste material still.

Depending on the amount of time it has been empty and the number of water changes you have done. The more changes you have done the lower the % of waste products there should be in there.

I did do a 50% water change last Saturday. The crushed coral is easy to remove because i have it in media bags.

Test the water with the crushed coral still in the filter, remove the coral, do a 50% water change and test again after 24 hours. This should give you some indication of the impact the crushed coral was having on your Ph, Kh and Gh levels.

I have no plants yet because my light hasn't come in yet.

As you are planning to have a planted tank I would also get the gravel into it as soon as possible. This should help you to stabilise your parameters before introducing the fish

Do you think I should start new with all new media right now I have ammonia remover, carbon, the ceramic noodles chemipure elite and the crushed coral.

I would continue to use the media you have at the moment but continue to monitor your water parameters. There will probably be some residual changes due to contamination of the media with the crushed coral over the short term but I doubt that it would be a long term problem. Note, I have not used crushed coral previously.

Where can I get peat moss? That sounds like exactly what i need...

I am currently using Eheim Ehfi-Torf but very expensive through the LFS, no other supply handy though. You could try your LFS, google Peat Moss or Sphagnum moss. Do be cautious though as you may find these materials available at garden nurseries but they often have non-suitable fertilisers added.

This is my plan im going to do another water change this weekend then when my light comes in i will add plants to the tank.

I will let the plants grow and make the water balance out then add my fish.

Is there anything I should change?

Sounds good and good luck.

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

Thanks for all your advice! I have one more question though... When you do weekly water changes of 20% or as other people have said 30%, are you digging into the gravel each time or are you just sucking the water out and replacing it? I ask this because I have been told that with a planted tank I shouldn't disturb the roots often because the plants may not survive.

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

I have managed to source some RO water very cheap and am currently doing 30% bi-weekly.

I really just skim over the bare patches but get right down among the foliage of the plants making a real effort to get as much gunge out of them as I can.

I also have half a dozen bronze corys that work hard at stirring up the bottom which means I have a fair bit of waste product transitting through the filter which is also rinsed out on a regular basis (rinsed only using the aquarium water to remove the solids).

Regards,

Bob

[Hollowman]

Did you read this ?

Ok, I think you are getting the high readings beacuse you are not doing enough maintenance. You are probably overfeeding and leaving uneaten food in the tank to rot. All foods contain phosphates, which if you are not removing by regular water changes will give the high nitrAtes.
As a suggestion, you need to do some homework on how to look after discus properly. Not saying you don't care for the fish, but they do require the highest water quality, which can only be achieved by some regular work.
At each water change, and I am going to say at least 30% 3 times a week, you need to deep clean your substrate, and also wipe down the glass sides, back and front of the tank with kitchen paper towel before you change the water. After each feeding, siphon out all uneaten food within an hour. If you don't it will get trapped and rot.

Water changes are 30% 3 times a week, minimum

Changing your filter media will mean you will need to recycle your tank, that means 6 weeks before you can add fish. Please do some proper reading about discus and the nitrogen cycle and water quality. You will be slowly killing your fish if you don't know what you are doing.

[donrusso1478]

Yes I did read that. I am not going to change all my media all I am going to do right now is remove the crushed coral, and add peat moss to my filter. I am going to do 50% water changes every week until I get my nitrates get down to zero. I'll add plants and continue to do 20 - 30% water changes every week. Once I am confident that my water keeping abilities have been perfected that is when I will start to introduce fish. Does that sound like a good plan? Should I do anything different?

[Hollowman]

Yes, please re-read the bit where I said 30% water change 3 times a week! Your nitrates will not decrease doing small weekly changes period. If you don't take advice, you won't change anything.

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

How have things gone over the weekend.

Did you do the 50% change, remove the crushed coral and check your readings.

I know that you are hoping to get away with small changes but I have to tell you that I have been done three 30% over the last week and I have to tell you the fish are looking much better. Mind you, they weren't looking bad but the overall improvement has been marked.

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

i did the water change but i ran out of test strips an removed all the coral though i will buy more test strips tomorrow i have a test tube kit but i have been told not to trust them because they go bad over time...

[Hollowman]

The strips are a waste of time in my opinion. Buy a set of new liquid test kits, they are far more accurate. :wink:

[donrusso1478]

The whole test kit conspiracy is making me crazy some people tell me the liquid tests are more accurate. Which is how I originally thought. Then I have others that tell me that Strips are better. Others that tell me that you cant trust liquid tests after the liquid becomes old... But how old is old? What is the accuracy life of a liquid test. How could I possibly know how long it spent on the shelf in the store before I bought it? I am starting to feel like if i don't have thousands of dollars to invest in a electronic test kit then I shouldn't bother with setting up a tank. Its so frustrating.

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

I bought the strips initially because I thought nice and cheap but should be okay in the short term.

I have had all sorts of trouble getting accurate readings and stopping the water from one pad getting onto the others (different reagents interfering with each other). I am currently using liquid tests and finding them much easier to use. Variations in colour are easy to identify.

Good luck with it all, keep us updated on how things are going.

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

I have always felt that liquid tests are better but how long do they last?

[BobbyBruce]

Hi Don,

My current Ph, Gh and Kh kits I have had for about five years now. I was using the same water, same amounts of conditioners etc and getting the same results so was only testing on a very irregular basis. I have compared the Ph, Gh & Kh aquarium tests kits with my pool test kit results and they are comparable so I'm thinking that they are still good for at least five years. Others may have different opinions obviously.

Regards,

Bob

[donrusso1478]

OK i just tested with my liquid kit ph is at 6.8 witch is pretty close to tap so i think i trust considering i removed 4 bags of crushed coral. Ammonia is at 0 but it was at 0 before. nitrites are at 0 and they were at .5 not sure if i can trust that. My nitrates were at 80 the liquid test says 0 thats got to be wrong. There is not way this could be 0. gh and kh i cant test i dont have liquid tests for that. I think i may buy more dip sticks for now just to compare exact numbers.

[taksan]

Strips are inaccurate.... I'd be doing 3 x 30% WC's a week every week ...forever

[donrusso1478]

i don't understand are you saying i should just do 3 x 30% water changes per week and not worry about testing anymore? I tested with strips this morning and it says my nitrates were at 40ppm witch makes sense because they were 80 last weekend i just did another water change this morning so i will check again tomorrow... KH and GH haven't changed at all still have extremely hard water i just removed the coral on Thursday night so I'm not sure if it just needs more time or if i should put some peat moss in my filter.

[Hollowman]

I think this will be my last post to this thread.

We are trying to help you here, please listen to the advice being given, not just by me.

A wise man told me once:
"Look after your water and the fish will look after themselves."

YOU ARE NOT LOOKING AFTER YOUR WATER - PERIOD

Change your water as advised 3 times a week at 30%
You have blatently just ignored this advice.

I am not being hard on you, but you are not listening. People will soon give up helping you if you just ignor what they have to say.

H

[donrusso1478]

I am listening today was my 3rd water change in a week i did one monday thursday and sunday and i am doing more than 30% water changes! I got to be close to 40% each time I think I am making improvement i went from having nitrate levels of 160ppm then down to 80 ppm and as of yesterday i am at 40ppm! Don't tell me I am not taking your advice the changes in my water levels are evidence of my listening to your advice. The one thing that hasn't changed is my water hardness! That is all I am saying! I don't know maybe I am not being clear with how I am saying things.

[ILLUSN]

your water hardness is dictated by the chemistry of your source water, this is VERY hard to control, if you want to modify your hardness you'll need a large (200L min) storage container, use HCl (hydrochloric acid) to convert your carbonate (CO3) to CO2 which will leave as gas. once youv'e done this your water will be softer, it will also be more acidic and less stable, my tanks run at a kh of <1 and a ph of 5.5-5.8 i change 90-95% of the water EVERY DAY (1000L of discus tanks) if i leave it for too long (any more than 3-4 days) i get ph crashes down to about 3.8

your problems with hardness are proably caused by the crushed coral, in my bristlenose and display tanks i use 1-2TSP/100L in a filter to buffer the water and stop crashes. any more and it will just keep sending your kh up and up and up.

[DiscusDave]

your water hardness is dictated by the chemistry of your source water, this is VERY hard to control, if you want to modify your hardness you'll need a large (200L min) storage container, use HCl (hydrochloric acid) to convert your carbonate (CO3) to CO2 which will leave as gas. once youv'e done this your water will be softer, it will also be more acidic and less stable

Hi ILLUSN

Does that reduce the TDS or increase it? My understanding is that the water which discus are naturally found in is soft due to the almost complete lack of disolved minerals and acidic due to organic acids like humic acid and lack of buffering carbonates? I would have thought that adding a mineral acid would simply replace the carbonate ions with other acidic salts and leave the calcium - so it wont reduce the hardness (GH) at all but will decrease the alkalinity (KH)? Does it really create a better environment or just one which produces similar test kit readings but different chemistry?

Regards

Dave

[Snookgum123]

Changing water is fine. Changing water without chlorine remove is not. Changing water without leting the new water sit for at least a day or 2 so it can be somewhat old age water.