New Discus in Tank- Was doing good and now is acting funny

[crazyducky123]

My second discus was put into my tank 3 days ago. The first day he was really adventurous and brought my other one out with him to swim around. Yesterday and today he has started to lost some of his color, he still swims around but when he goes to the top of the tank he leans to the side a bit. He is still interested in food and eats well. Ammonia and Nitrate/Nitrite and pH levels are fine. Temp is 86. No visible signs of any kind of parasite or ich on him. His top and bottom fins are brought into his body but his tail fin is normal. Any ideas whats wrong with him? I did a 30 percent water change tonight and they both seem to beswiming around more after it but he still doesnt look right. Any help is appretiated!

[1fish2fish3fish]

saying your water tests fine wont be enough for anyone to go on.. if you can post the actual level of each one and your PH..
it will be all different now since that WC ,do another the same time tomorrow.
someone will be here to assist you more than I, they will ask you questions and want more detailed answers..
they might ask.. How big is your tank? any other fish than Discus?
how big is this one, and the other how big is he?
adult, juv?
your fish might need a wormer med..how does his poop look? brown/dark or white and segmented.
Ive heard some say that Discus
will act this way at the start, then be fine after a week or two..could only be shock for a bit.. how did you Climatize him?
did you quarantine him?
check your water now.. 0 amm, O nitrItes, and 0 NitrAtes Ph should be around 6.5 to 7.2
help should be here soon

[crazyducky123]

He is a juv. discus along with the other one. The tank size is 25 gallons. Ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite are at 0. The water is soft, with a higher pH of 8.4. Unfortunately, the high pH is a characteristic of the water around here... all petsmarts and petcos have that same pH and soft water. My other discus has been doing fine with the pH as well as my friend's discus who swim around in the same water conditions, we both test our water daily and compare so thats how I know they are the same. The other fish in the tank are neons, red rio tetras, upside down catfish, balloon molly, and ghost shrimp. I actually havent seen them poop yet so I don't know what that looks like. When I first put him in the tank I let him float around in the bag for about an hour and then I put some of my tank water in and let it sit for about 15 minutes then I put him in. I have been doing regular water changes (25-30%) every other day and some every day. After the water change today he seems to have perked up a bit, but the fins are still close to the body and the color is still not full. Let me know if there is any other info yall need. Thanks for the help! :-)

[angel101]

8.4 are you sure about that. My reef tank has a pH that is only a couple of points from that. It should be 6.5 to 7.5 and stabile. Sorry, but discus will not prosper at that pH, you will need to fix it. Have you read much on the topic of keeping these fish?


Gary.

[crazyducky123]

Yes I have read a lot about keeping these fish, I dont generally like to just jump into things lol. 8.4 is what my test kits reads, the other three discus have been doing fine in the pH, and the tropical fish store where I purchased them said juv. can adjust to different pH better than adults can. It will be a mess trying to get the pH to remain stable as the tap water is 8.4pH and with frequent water changes the pH in the tank is going to go up and down constantly... shouldnt it be better to have the pH remain steady than to fluctuate all of the time?

[Hollowman]

Firstly, you should be reading some nitrAtes. Secondly, you say that your water is 8.4ph, so why would it be jumping around if you do more water changes?
Lastly, if you had read about discus, you would have learnt about how to quarentine a new fish properly. it takes 6 weeks to do this properly, did the lfs tell you that? I expect not, they just wanted a sale. I would say that it is either suffering from a ph shock, and no, juves do not adjust any quicker than adults, or you have contaminated your new fish with a parasite or bacteria from your existing fish.

H :(

[crazyducky123]

The nitrates in my tank are at 0, like I have said in past postings. The reason I say the pH would jump around is because since it is at a high pH I would have to use chemicals to lower the pH. Keeping the pH at a constant level would be hard because I do very frequent water changes so I would be constantly compensating and possibly overcompensating for the pH level. The changing of pH would really stress the fish out. I know how to quarentine a fish properly, however, I chose to skip this step because I am a college student and I don't have all of the money in the world (or space for that matter) to have multiple fish aquariums. The fish that are with the discus shouldn't have anything wrong with them because they have been watched closely for about four weeks now and are very healthy. The aquarium shop I got my fish from simply didn't want to "make a sell" the owner that helped me is actually very knowledgable about discus and all types of fish he sells. He warned me about how discus are more delicate and require special care unlike other fish. Its a private business and the guy really knows his stuff. Please don't say bad things about places you don't know. Im just going to say that its a pH shock thing... he is swimming around good today but his fins are tucked to his body still and he has retrieved some of his color back. I just fed them some frozen bloodworms and he ate those really well also. Thanks for everyones help, of course if anyone else has some advice I would love to hear it, but any attacks at my intellegence can be kept quiet since this is a place where people should be able to go and learn about things, and not feel bad for not saying or doing the right thing all of the time. :-)

[Hollowman]

1, The nitrates in my tank are at 0, like I have said in past postings.

2, I know how to quarentine a fish properly, however, I chose to skip this step

3, The fish that are with the discus shouldn't have anything wrong with them because they have been watched closely for about four weeks now and are very healthy.

4, Please don't say bad things about places you don't know.

today but his fins are tucked to his body still

5, Thanks for everyones help,

6, any attacks at my intellegence can be kept quiet

Ok, deep breath!!

1, As I said, you should in a properly cycled tank have 'some' nitrAte reading, anything from 5 to 10 is acceptable.

2, 'You' decided to 'skip' quarentine.....

3, Your existing stock may still carry pathogens that the new one is not used to. This is why QT is so important.

4, I did not say bad things about the place you bought your fish from, but judging by the fact you have a sick fish, I rest my case. Most lfs's will sell you fish without a care for how they are looked after. If I went to my supplier and wanted a fish, he would not sell me one if he knew I didn't have the proper facilities to keep it in.

5, I 'am' trying to help

6, I do not try to insult your intellegence, but you made a classic mistake that was avoidable. Now you have risked 'all' your fish.
You must now monitor 'all' of them closely. If I were you I would get a small tank, heater and air driven sponge filter for Qt just in case things go southwards. You might have to pull the fish and treat accordingly.

Do I need to try to help you ? no, but I did, I chose to point out a few points where you have gone wrong so you don't make the same mistakes again.

H

[crazyducky123]

I understand you are trying to help and I appretiate it. Yes I decided not to quarentine the fish, yes I understand the consequences of not doing that. That said, is there anything 'special' I should be doing to help my fish out, any kind of medication that would help him (I was thinking about adding some methalyne blue, or however its spelled) to the tank. I think its good that pet shops and aquatic shops where you live don't sell their products unless they are going to a good place. Thats just not how it is here in Texas though, you want something, you buy it. I have never been somewhere where they refused to sell something to a customer. Thats just how it is around here. I will try to post a picture later of my discus once I get my camera back from my friend.

[Hollowman]

No problem bud, I would imagine it is an external parasite, if so, you could treat with potassium permanganate, you should be able to get that from a drug store, or your lfs should have some pre mixed. make sure you have some hydrogen peroxide on hand to neutrilise it or some water conditioner.
PP will nuke your filter as it is an oxidiser, so better to treat in a smaller qt tank if you can get hold of one or borrow one.
if you have plants, it will also damage them, s othis is why a qt tank is needed.

There should be a link somewhere for using PP if you do a seach for it.

hth

H :)

[lpiasente]

To save the ph problems you can have water already stored and adjusted with ph down and prime in another container so when it comes to water changes the ph level in your storange bin will be the same as your tank. My tap water here is 8.5 as well.

[zar]

If you're new to discus and haven't played much around with meds I wouldnt recommend using potassium permanganate. If you get the dosage wrong you can easily damage and maybe even kill your fish.
Meth blue is milder and easier to dose so try that, maybe even strong daily salt baths. I'd also bring down the ph to 7 to 6 .5.
8.4 pH sounds a bit too high for discus.

Even though Hollowman might have sounded a bit rude to you he's totally right about quaranteening, if you don't have one already you should invest into a hospital/quarantine tank, 2ft should be good enough. and really from now on try and quarantine your fish. When I started off I didn't quarantine my fish and brought the discus plague into my tank, killed all my discus except the two new ones I brought in. I learnt my lesson then. :)

[Hollowman]

Zar, sorry I might have sounded rude.

I think the options of MB or PP both hold their own dangers, both will nuke your filter and kill your fish in the wrong dosage. However, at least with PP you can immediatley neutrilise with hydrogen peroxide if needed, whereas MB would take a couple of large water changes.

The options are there now, but reading up on each will help Crazy make his decision.

:)

[zar]

Hollowman,

I'd use pp as well over MB, but if you don't have a good scale you can easily overdose where the MB will tell him exactly how many ml to put in per L of water etc. I've just heard of too many people burning/damaging gills of fish with pp or even killing them thats why I thought if he's new to using medications maybe try something less risky like mb. but as you said up to crazyducky to decide what to do.
zar

[1fish2fish3fish]

more work than Im sure you had expected, take the advise from Ipiasente he said that you can prime your water in a holding tank ,tub etc and adjust it to the PH your fish would feel comfortable with, this would help big time!.
I also must say your tank is good and stocked now with all those fish..as the Discus grow if able to with water condition being a little better than what they are,( unfortunatlly ) this is how it is..and the Upsidedowncat ( I have one too 6 in +) but not with Discus, he is a night stalker and will probably disturb your discus as they settle for the nite..

I supervise at a LFS and would have steered you away from this purchase knowing your set-up and tank mates. I personally have refused sales of these types of fish to the undesirable home set-up for my peace of mind, the fish and the customer,as I sell fish like most places with a guarantee I would firmly tell the customer that there would not be one for the risk of the fishs health in thier care it would not be replaced. which is what now has brought you here. take the advise and do the best you can now from here..
Sue

[crazyducky123]

Thanks for the replies... I think I am going to try some meth. blue first because its not so harsh. My discus is swimming around better today and still eating great, but still has the dark color and tucked fins. Here are some pics (didnt come out great but oh well) the brilliant is the one thats healthy in the pics and the snake skin is the darker one in the pics (obviously lol). Oh and by the way I am a woman :-)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/crazy_ducky123/P1270584.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/crazy_ducky123/P1270586.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/crazy_ducky123/P1270588.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/crazy_ducky123/P1270589.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/crazy_ducky123/P1270590.jpg

[1fish2fish3fish]

:shock: Oh dear hes in MUCH distress..wow.. do all you can, get him out of there in a 10gal if anything for now bucket with small heater, maybe you can borrow, just make sure its not resting on the side of bucket,and some airation.
and treat! what did you pay for him US if you dont mind me asking we sell there guys this size for 39.99 to 49.99 can..
Ive 2 cobalts, like your other discus, cute little guy!..
please tell us your plan, and progress..would be a shame to treat the whole tank and risk the others now..upsidedowncat wont do well with any med, be very careful at dosing!
Sue

[crazyducky123]

I will see what I can do. I bought them for about $30.00 each. Juvies here range from $25-35, and 4 inchers start around $60 and go up into the $100s depending on what kind you buy.

[1fish2fish3fish]

so its about the same as here then..our cobalts look like twins..lol poorly stunted they are now I can see that compared to my red leopard..look at the shape..Im doing my best to get him up there (well both of them) to what he should be for his age..these 2 were not planned at all, they just came home with me..
BTW Im female too.. :)
Sue

[1fish2fish3fish]

heres a quick peek if you dont mind the pic post.. :oops:
Im happy with them through the LFS, the rest being purchased from a breeder in a few months time..

[crazyducky123]

Those are very pretty! Today my discus is doing much better, he has got a lot of his color back and is swimming around with the other one and up front. Im going to do a water change today and see how he likes that. So far so good!

[Hollowman]

Crazy, how often do you change the water and how much?

[1fish2fish3fish]

Wow, quick recovery!.. from looking the way he did to swimming around at the front..
do try and age the water before the water change..this will help reduce some stress..
honestly YOU will be suprised at the difference..
whats your feeding schedual? and what do you feed?

[crazyducky123]

I do a 20% water change every other day and I feed frozen and dried bloodworms.

[crazyducky123]

Well crap, I just observed my discus today and they both have little white spots all over them. The other fish don't seem to have any. Im going to raise my temp to 90 degrees. How much salt should I put into the tank? 2 teaspoons a gallon? Just regular table salt or does it need to be aquarium salt? They both are still swimming around up front and eating, today is the first day the spots have shown up. Thanks for the help!

[Hollowman]

Crazy, the temp rise should be fine for now. I wouldn't add salt, but as you ask, table salt is fine.
As for your water changes, I would up the volume to 33% if you can, your frequency is fine. Try to give them some other foods too or they can get picky. Brine shrimp is good, beef heart, black worms etc.

hth

:)

[crazyducky123]

So should I just raise the temp and wait to see if the spots will go away? I have a granual food for discus but it sinks really quickly and they never seem to be interested in it. I will try some of the other foods too. Thanks for your help :-)

[Hollowman]

Can you describe the white spots, are they all over and about the size of a grain od salt, or bigger, can you take a photo?

[crazyducky123]

They are all over the discus that hasnt been feeling good and there are just a few on my other one. They are about the size of a grain of salt, just very small white dots. I am not sure if its ich or stress bumps, I have heard that discus can get small white bumps when they are stressed?

[Hollowman]

Sounds like Ich to me. The Discus are normally kept at between 28-30C this temperature is too much for Ich, so raise the temp slowly to 30 and maintain it there, you should see an overall improvement in a few days, and the spots should go.

Iff not, then you can add salt to the dose of 2ppm. 200gm (salt) per 100 litres of water for a period of 2 weeks. Make water change in-between but redose to 2ppm for the amount of water removed.

[crazyducky123]

My discus died :-( My other one has a few spots on him but the temp is now 90 degrees so I am hoping the ich will go away within the next 3 days. Should I get a ich medication to get rid of it or let it run its course?

[Hollowman]

Sorry to hear that Crazy :cry: At discus temps you should never get Ich, give it a day or two, then the salt treatment.

[zar]

My advice to you is to buy adults or semi-adults if you can afford it.
a lot less hassle,they're much tougher and you save yourself the raising up bit ;) , if you think about the meds and food you spend until they're big its well worth dishing out big money for adults, just my opinion..

zar

[crazyducky123]

Yeah I don't know why they even got the ich... the only thing I can think of is when my water went to 80 degrees and then I fixed it back up to 86. I would buy the adults but I can't afford to pay 80 to 150 dollars a fish, so far buying the juvies has been affordable for me. Maybe later on when I get a larger tank and I am out of college and have a job I can afford to buy the big ones. The ich hasnt seemed to spread today (as it shouldnt since the temp is 90) hopefully it will go away within the next two days.

[Hollowman]

It was probably brought in with the one that wasn't qt'd, but we won't dwell on that. You will also find that at the higher temps, their metabolism is also raised, so they will eat more, be more active, and be able to fend off illness far easier.