wrigglers dying and parents innocent, I think

[Sean]

Can anyone give me some advice on why my wrigglers might be dying?
I have never really had any luck with parents raising their fry, I have always suspected that the parents eat their fry at the wriggler stage to free swimming. I have tried separating parents from eggs/fry with 'gutter guard' and also selectively taking out one parent and then the other, but never have witnessed the eating of fry. My latest trick is using a new male which has had less hatching rate but the new male seems interested in guarding/caring for the young. This morning I found that the fry (about day 7) were swimming upside down and obviously dying in the gravel. Water conditions are: soft (around 6), acidic pH6.7, temp 29.5, no nitrites.
There are no other fish in the 90Lt tank and I often put meth. blue in the water when the eggs are laid, but not the last batch.
Could it be gill flukes that do not seem to affect the parents?
The tanks is planted so I am reluctant to take out the gravel, unless this has a benefit.
I am running out of ideas so any advice will be much appreciated.
Cheers
Sean

[kalebjarrod]

sounds like your doing it all right

how many times have the parents tried to breed?

[Sean]

Hi Ryan
The female has spawn more than 20 times already and 3 or so with this new male. I was thinking along the lines of treating the tank with formaldehyde before the next spawn and increase the frequency of water changes after that. Maybe trying too hard and some fish are just not going to be prolific breeders no matter what you do. :?
One thing i haven't done for ages is change the filter in the cannister filter :roll:

[DiscusMan]

Maybe it is flukes. The parents can handle them but the fry arent that hardy. I would be thinking that this may be a cause as i already states and would be trying something to see if that may be it.

Good luck with it.

Wayne

[Majesticaquatic]

Keeping in mind that the fry depend on a good "slime coat" ("food supply)on the parents, could this be an issue ?????
If there is any possibility of inadaquate food supplies they would perish quite rapidly...
R/O systems can and will reduce 'slime coat', the addition of 'humics' (like Tetra/Blackwater Extract) could aid in promoting more/denser 'slime coat' (hence "food supply")... Heavy water changes can also reduce 'slime coat'.
Discus also recieve/develope thier basic immune system from feeding on parents as well so this early stage of feeding is pretty important.. :wink:

[Sean]

Thanks guys
I will try both suggestions, i was beginning to dispair and think it is too hard - one of the benefits of the forum. Thanks for the encouragement! I have changed the tank to barebottom, will treat for flukes and have blackwater extract and also change 1/4 water with 3/4RO and see how I go.
Will let you know
Cheers

[DiscusMan]

Keep going, you'll get ther mate.

Its all a matter of gettign it right and then keeping it there :)

Wayne

[Majesticaquatic]

I know that an awful lot of folks promote the use of EXTREMELY clean water...
I undersdtand why some folks choose this route... but fact is Discus really do better in "OLD" (well aged, but clean) water... There are several reasons for this and basicly has to do with essential elements (which are created by natural mechanics of the system over time) required by Discus and offspring... There are of course some available replacement additives professing these qualities, albeit I am not so certain they live up to promises..
Humics are very essential to well being and once again these are developed over a period of time as the water ages (matures)..
[HUMICS are vegatation broken down through rotification to thier liquid form, sometimes these are dehydrated to a dry/powder form and frequently used to boost fertilizers, etc. because of enzymatic action once it becomes active.. / (ancient humics are typicaly in crystal/salt like forms) / "Tetra" Blackwater Extract is a good example of a refined/developed version of this..] ....... Water 'contamination' principally occures by what WE add to it or lack of proper gas exchanges (circulation/filteration/etc.) and/or lighting conditions for purpose(s) desired..
Considering the above theory/principal of course requires developing a 'discipline' of not 'overcrowding', over feeding, feeding improper diets/foods, maintaing proper ratios of circulation and attention to filtering mediums used...
Both Carbon and Utraviolet can damage the needed nutrients of the Discus (Ultum Angels/Uaru's/Cardinal Tetras/ and several other more delicate varieties...), so they should be used in limited applications for specific purposes...
If following these principals then there would be adaquate supplies of edible infusoriates, etc. available in the system for new hatchlings ("wigglers") and the parents would have a Plush feeding field (slime coat) for the fry as well.. As well as in Prime condition to deal with the stress of a large batch of young..
High production, commercial breeders would be very hard pressed to follow this principal as the goal is NUMBERS... So in the end it boils down to what your goals are (what your 'perspective' is ?)... I will be 60 this year, and learned from a mentor who used to drive a truck to Florida from Minn. and bring back fish in Milk cans... for his store, started cleaning tanks for him when I was 10... The most IMPORTANT lesson he gave me was that Nature will control everything so try to give her every chance to succeed... When WE try to take over and decide WE are going to control things.... Well you know what happens :oops: :wink: