Hello i'm Will [Archive]

Willystylee

Thu Dec 25, 2008, 11:34 PM

Hi all!

I'm new, and have been into aquariums for about 6 years.

My first setup on my 35 gal octagonal tank was 2 african lake malawi cichlids for about 2 years, then a jack depsey for about 4 years.

Unfortunately old Jack passed about a week ago, so i decided to move to more community friendly trops to make it easier on myself.

My new setup is (same 35 gal tank) 2 Dwarf gouramis, 2 gold gouramis, another unknown gourami, and my new best friend the discus. I got him for 49.00 at my local pet shop and he is beautiful.

Will

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/blueyes80513/DSCN0547.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/blueyes80513/th_DSCN0549.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/blueyes80513/?action=view&current=DSCN0549.flv)

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/blueyes80513/th_DSCN0551.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h297/blueyes80513/?action=view&current=DSCN0551.flv)

Hollowman

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 12:13 AM

Hi Will, and welcome to the wonderful world of Discus.

This is a great place to learn about all things Discus and there are many experts here who can provide you with 'the right' information.

Unfortunately, I feel that you should have done some reading up on discus before you bought one. Even though you love the fish you have got, what you have been sold is a very very poor example of a discus and a classic reason why I never recommend going to a local fish shop for a discus.
Your fish shows classic signs of being badly malnourished, shown by the pinched shape to the forehead, look at it head on (in the second video) and you will see the sides bow inwards. You will also see that the eyes are very large compared to the size of the body. This is a classic sign of what we call stunting. This is where the fish has been badly looked after in its early life and the body has stopped growing. The eyes continue to grow making them look large. Returning to the body, you will see that the body is shaped like a rugby ball, again another classic sign of stunting. Finally, the colour is very poor. The fish is a Pigeon Blood, PB's should be 'clean', meaning that it should carry no black pigment at all. The black pigment will not go with age, we call this peppering.

I also notice from your videos (which are good quality by the way) that you have a very strong current ripping around your tank. Discus are mostly still water fish, that do not like to be in a current, you might find that it is always looking for a peaceful area of the tank, or hides because of this. You need to address this berfore it kills your fish.
You should also know that discus are schooling fish. They do better in groups, normally a single fish will hide, not eat, get stressed and wither until death. We normally recommend a group of between 4 to 6 fish. I am not sure that I would keep them with gouramis either.

Will, I know the above is probably not what you wanted to hear, but you need to read up on discus, there is a lot to learn, and it is the basics that need to be addressed first. I hope you can get yours eating and get him healthy again, we can help you with that here, as well as helping you get your water right.

Thinking about water, how often do you do water changes? and how much? can you test your water and post up your parameters. What filter do you use? what and how much food do you feed?

Ask any questions, nothing is too trivial or silly.

Good luck

Hollowman :)

Willystylee

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 03:28 AM

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 03:55 AM

Hey Will

All that Hollowman says is true & he gives great advice, always. Once you learn more about discus & this one fattens up under your care - then keep in mind beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A lot of ppl don't like the"pepper" look so much, but hey, this isn't their fish. In your eyes, he is beautiful and it's your eye's that matter :wink:

The stunting & peppering can't be changed, but you can fatten him up & he can still give you joy.

The info about stunting can be used to help you know what to avoid in your next discus purchase.

pink66

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 09:26 AM

Hi Will and Welcome, I understand your thoughts towards your discus.. I too am hooked.. and think they are the most wonderful fish. I have had all kinds of fish over the years but had never moved into discus. (only had them since July) My first one was "saved" and she was in desperate need of assistance.. She is not an "a" grade fish but I love her.. It was not until I posted her pics that I even knew that there was such a thing as a "stunted" discus.. She has been fed up and is very happy and healthy now.. just not as large as she might have been..and with a large eye :)

H has heaps of knowledge on discus and will always assist - his info will help your fishy to grow big and strong.. Choosing colour is in the eye of the beholder, but breeders, etc always strive to move forward with fishies that meet a standard (hope I explained that ok). Peppering is a really big issue when you are trying to get a "clean" fish. You obviously like the markings and that is great..

I have used the forum to read and learn about discus so I can get it right when caring for her and all her new friends. I have learnt that discus are tougher than people would think but there are some things that just must be watched.. Any fish that you keep with discus need to be a calm fish and not quick and pushy at feed time. Otherwise the pecking order will become discus last and your little guy could well miss out. Sometimes I wonder what LFS's are thinking.. You are very lucky indeed when you come across one that actually understands discus :?

Beefheart is a good food for him and they also like brine shrimp, black worms, discus bits, amongst other things.. keep up the variety and he will never become picky.

I think that your little guy is lucky that you chose him.. remember the secret is read, read, read and ask lots of questions.. your fish will love you for it :wink: :wink: :wink:

Hollowman

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 11:01 AM

Well that's too bad to hear.

The owner of my pet shop assured me that the discus was compatible with the gouramis... He recommended a ph of 6.2-7.5.

My pH is at 6.8..

The thing is he seems pretty happy with everything now though, the current really doesn't seem to be bothering him(?)

I'm feeding it beefheart and the gouramis flakes. The temp is 81-82.

Wow and i thought he was colored very nicely, but i guess not lol.

:cry:

Will, please don't be put off by what I said, both TW and Pink have also remarked that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I do not have a problem with this at all, they also said feed well and you will fatten him up and he will love you for it. I totally agree.

Please remember that your lfs is in the business of selling fish. Most do not care who they sell to or what, it's just a sale to them. The sponsors here will be able to give you good advice. Do you know, when I started in discus and met a 'real' keeper/importer, here in the UK, he wouldn't let me buy any, I had to wait until I could prove my water was correct for them.
From what you say,..your PH is spot on, the temperature is a bit low, I would raise it to between 84 to 86F (28-30C) this might not be suitable for the Gouramis who prefer temps between 74 and 79F (24-26C) Your lfs should have known this. Your fish will become stressed and ill if kept below optimum temps.
Feeding sounds ok too, but the more varied the better.

I really would turn down the current though, it will stress your fish, you might think he likes swimming against the tide, but it will stress him and he will get ill. He is in....on a knife edge right now, his health has been compromised already, not your fault, so you need to make him as comfortable as possible by reducing the flow, and raising the temperature.

Can you tell us how often you change your water and how much? This will also increase the health of your fish.

H :)

lpiasente

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 08:52 PM

Hi Will, I made the same mistake when I bought my first discus. I bought home beautiful checkerboard and didn't realise he was a stunted fish but just like you I still thought he was beautiful. He is a lucky little fish that you have him now as does look thin. I am only new here myself but if you feed him 4 times a day a variety of food the he will fatten up, maybe grow a little and that in itself is a reward. I have had a gourami in with my discus for months now in lower ph and high temp and it has survived some bad situations in my tank where other fish haven't. They can be aggressive though especially at feeding time. Congratulations on your new little buddy and I look forward to seeing some new pics in a few weeks of a fat little fellow. Cheers Leanne

Sat Dec 27, 2008, 10:05 AM

Yes, we look forward to seeing new pics of him in a few weeks time :thumb

If you tell us your water change routine, we can help you there, if you need it.

Willystylee

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:39 AM

THank you guys so much!! Wow you all are so nice i came in here expecting to get thrown around like in typical forums, but wow! Your all very kind.

As for Joe Strummer, *my discus* he seems to be doing alright lately. I've been feeding him his beefheart 2 times a day, (half a cube, with a small pinch of the high protein flake i have) with one or two small meals in between. (is this too much or too little feeding-wise?)
And also i was very surprised when i read some of your posts that mentioned feeding a variety of foods. I read on a website that it was inportant to keep a steady meal, but if you guys think otherwise i will take your advice.

And also do you guys really think raising the temp will be ok for the gouramis? Maybe like a couple of degrees? Like i said the temp is about 81-82...

And also i should tell you about Jimi Hendrix... (lol) he is one of the smaller gouramis... he has been chasing the other gouramis around and getting kinda bully-ish when it comes to feeding... He also just pecks the others sometimes even when not feeding...
He doesnt bother Joe Strummer at all though, but is this a possible problem? pink66 mentioned this may be a problem, should it be addressed and howso if it does?

As unfortunate as the stunting sounds, i really appreciate you guys for noticeing my like of the coloring and not putting it off as bad :D

I got kinda worried for mr discus when i read your post hollowman, but again i really appreciate the help, the truth is better that a dead discus.

Thanks again guys

Hollowman

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:23 AM

Will,

I am glad you have taken on board the advice, we are not here to bully people, keeping fish should be fun, not just for our sake but for the fish as well so they keep healthy. Remember, we have all made the mistakes already, so we can help you avoid making them before you do.
The more you learn about discus, the easier it gets. There are a few rules to be followed (the best you can) water quality and condition being the most important.
As water quality is the highest on the agenda, can you tell us how often you are changing water? Oh!, and have you turned that current down yet? :) you will see a huge difference.

H :wink:

Willystylee

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:06 PM

Hey hollowman,

Thanks again so much. I actually changed the water and cleaned the gravel and all my rocks and stuff before i got the discus and the gouramis, which was about 2 weeks ago now.

This morning i turned the temp up a notch, (its now about 83), and i fed them their breakfast.

I will turn down my filter a little too.

So what do you guys think about the kinda bullyish gourami i have?

Hollowman

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 09:08 PM

I would watch the behaviour, if the discus starts to hide or be picked on then maybe re-think.

Will, most of us here change water either on a daily basis, or at least 2 to 3 times a week. You cannot keep the water good without this change. Try to do at least 33% 3 times a week. When feeding beefheart, it soils the water so quickly you wont believe it. We normally remove uneaten food no more than half an hour after it has been fed.
Your gravel will also harbour nasties, so this also needs to be vacuumed each water change. By not changing the water you are basically keeping your fish in conditions it must have come from. DOC's (dissolved organic compounds) are built up within the water collumn and have a direct effect on the growth rate of your fish, this is one of the things that causes stunting. You might want to consider your water, as like I said earlier, water is the most important thing when keeping discus. In fact, somebody once said, look after your water, and your discus will look after themselves.

HTH

H :)

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 10:21 PM

I manage to get by on 2 x 50% wc a week and all my discus seem fine with that.

However, heavy feeding while you're tying to build the little guy up, might mean that you do need to do the 3 that Hollowman recommends.

Willystylee

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 10:45 PM

ok guys, i'll start doing a water change more often. I also have a placo in there... Won't he play a part in keepin the tank cleaner?

Hollowman

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:21 PM

I also have a placo in there... Won't he play a part in keepin the tank cleaner?

:lol: Pleco's, specially the common variety are the biggest producers of poop that I have ever kept. They do snaffle up left overs, but imo are not suitable for discus tankmates. If it is a common plec, they tend to grow very fast and soon compete for food. They can also get a taste for the slime on the sides of the discus and damage/kill discus if left, I have also seen the physically fight discus for food. I do however recommend the smaller Ansistus type of pleco, or Bristlenose, these grow to a maximum of 4" and do an excellent job of cleaning up. But even they poop a lot..........more water changing!! :roll:

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:23 PM

I have always heard the pleco's poop more than they clean up. Can't speak from experience, though as I have never had one. The large amounts of pooping I was told they do, always made me never want to own one. I have sterbai cories for a clean up crew.

Hollowman

Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:28 PM

Willystylee

Mon Dec 29, 2008, 07:10 AM

Hi guys,

SO what should i do about these two possible problem fish.

Also UPDATE: i just learned that one of my gouramis is actually a blue paradiese gourami... I'm looking at live aquaria and its saying blue paradise are semi-agressive... What should i do??

Wow right about now i'm kinda annoyed with my LFS.
I could have used this info before i bought the blue paradise gourami and the pleco...

What should i do woth these fish if they're gonna be a problem??

Also it says the gould gouramis are semi aggressive on liveaquaria!! I'm kinda stressin right now...

lpiasente

Mon Dec 29, 2008, 07:56 AM

Take them back to the lps you bought them from and don't listen to them when they try and talk you into keeping them. They should offer you a credit for them.

Willystylee

Tue Dec 30, 2008, 08:26 PM

What do u think hollowman?

I am considering getting a cheap 30 gal with a simple setup and putting the blue paradise and the gold gouramis in there. I would keep t he placo in there and wait it out with him qand if he becomes a problem then i will put him in the other tank with the gouramis... Would this be a good idea?

The thing is i really want to keep my main tank with the discus a community... I cant really afford another discus, the tank also seems too small for another, but i would want to get some more freshwater trops to keep with the discus. They need to be a peaceful temperment tho, and also matching tempurature levels... what would you guys suggest? Would a corie be ok with the temp bieng at around 82-83? i would also want to get like 2-maybe 3 max more trops.

Suggestions? Hollowman?

will

Willystylee

Tue Dec 30, 2008, 08:27 PM

Hollowman

Tue Dec 30, 2008, 08:46 PM

Hi Will,

Sounds like a plan, having the Gouramis in a seperate tank will be fine, the pleco will be in there too :wink:

As we said before, discus will do far better in small groups, keeping just one alone will make it feel very lonely, even with other tankmates. You could get another 3 smaller discus in there. You still need to raise the temp a bit more, get it to between 28 and 30 degrees, 84 to 86f Other fish that do well in a community tank with Discus are Rams, Neons, Cardinals, Cories, (Sterbai are lovely) Bristle Nose Pleco or Ansistrus, Red Eye Tetra, Rummy Nose Tetra and there are others. All of these will do very well at discus temps, and share the same food as the discus.

We normally say that each adult discus requires 10 gallons of water, your hex tank holds 35g yes? With regular water changing.....and I'm talking at least 3 x 33% changes per week you will be fine.

Add another 3 discus if you can afford it, you need 4 to have a proper group, under this and one will always be the underdog, get picked on and wither away.
The most important thing in all of this Will, is keeping good water, you must make that a priority....I can't stress this enough ok. Most new people to discus don't understand this, specially when they have kept fish in the past, but really, it make all the difference.

Do what you can and let us know ok bud :)

Steve

Willystylee

Wed Dec 31, 2008, 09:04 PM

Thanks so much H, i will be making the changes today or tommorrow and i'll let you guys know how everything is going. I appreciate all this great advise, i couldn't ask for a better Xmas present from my new friends! :D

Will

Hollowman

Wed Dec 31, 2008, 10:09 PM

No problem Will, I'll be looking forward to reading about your progress.

Happy New Year

Steve :)

Willystylee

Mon Jan 05, 2009, 06:51 AM

Hi guys, heres an update:

So i did a small fishswap in the tank, put the gold gouramis and blue paradise in another tank i setup, and put 3 red velvet wags, an emerald green (they didnt have sterbais) cory catfish, and 2 cherry barbs in. This was about a week ago. The discus seemed pretty happy still and kept his territory, i saw this a few times during feeding, and was pretty happy about it.

Then i did a 30% water change, (yesterday) and tried as hard as i could to get the temp right on the water i added and then added some conditioner. It was pretty successful. But now the discus has been hiding in his territory (bottom of tank, in 1'x1' area) a reef enclosure. he didn't come out for feeding this morning; i watched for a long while and still didn't see him eat, then tonight the same thing, didn't come out for feeding, and he still didn't eat! I'm kinda worried about this... I thought the water change was ok...

Did i leave a step out in the water change?

Previousluy to the water change he came out happily for feeding and seem to be doing well, he would defend his beefheart chunk (i put a half a chunk in and he would swim straight up to it and take it as his, as intended! Also i add a small sprinkle of flake for the other fish, and he was coming out confidently and greeting me when i walked past the tank. Any ideas of whats going on?

Thanks

will

Hollowman

Mon Jan 05, 2009, 07:25 PM

Will, you should have added your de-chlorinator to the water you were adding before use. Adding striaght tap water to the tank without conditioning it first might have affected the litte guy. Chlorine will burn gills, sometimes the water authorities add more to the water to keep down bugs, this might have put him into hiding. I would also think you need to worm the fish too. Do a search for worming treatments, this may also be why he is off his food. He will also be lonely, he needs a few mates.

Willystylee

Mon Jan 05, 2009, 11:13 PM

h,

No i said i did add conditioner to the water i added, i didn't just put in tap water. And he has about 5 tankmates (3 velvet wags, a cherry barb, a emerald green cory.)

What else could have caused him to change behavior?

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 12:47 AM

Hi Will, I think Hollowman means he needs discus tank mates. Discus usually pretty much ignore fish that aren't discus.

pink66

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 02:50 AM

Hi Will, I can vouch for needing discus buddies..

When I found Finn and "saved" her she had been living with a clown loach.. she had been with Freddo for a really long time ( i saved him too - I am a sucker like that- he is in a different tank now) with no other discus.. Her behaviour was very strange indeed (i am sure she thought she was a loach :roll: ) Once I got her some discus friends, after a bit of organising the pecking order, she settled and was much much happier. she has not looked back since.. discus really do prefer to "school up" I think it makes them feel safe. :wink:

Willystylee

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 06:36 AM

ok, well my tank is only 35 gal so idk... I guess it's a possibility that i could get like 2-3 more discus but wow, thats a pretty big chunk of cash...

I kinda just wish i could stop spending money on this lol

Hollowman

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 05:44 PM

To add fish to your tank would mean moving the others out and just having discus in there. You could for now add another 2-3 fish of the same size, but when they grow, you will need to expand the tank.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about the the tank mates, the other guys have already answered that for me. :D

Willystylee

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 07:43 PM

hi hollowman,

YEa i've thought about it, and i think i will even tually move to an all discus tank, but i guess its just a matter of time, and of tank space and fish count over time.

On another note, Today in the am, i was surprised to see Joe out of his spot he'd been sulking in which was the furthest visible spot in the tank, pretty hidden. Pretty much all yesterday he was in that spot, looking upset. Right before i went to sleep at around 12pm, he was kinda starting to come out of his hiding spot and i went to look at him, but he scurried away when he saw me approaching. I took this as "leave me alone", and decided i should leave him alone. :)

So this morning, i glanced at the tank and saw him swimming about at the top of the tank, and when i approached he didn't swim away i took this as a greeting. :D

I quickly went to the freezer and got his food and his behavior seemed to be back to his old self! He was eating, (sometimes spitting out) but he seemed very happy and was defending his meal. I think he's getting back to his old self.

My only concern is that when i have to make another water change what will i do?

I also have noticed a little of his peppering turning back to it's yellow color! Either that or it's getting lighter.

So good news! :)

Will.

Hollowman

Tue Jan 06, 2009, 08:37 PM

Good, he will soon associate you with food and will become even more animated towards you.

Water changes are what they are, and have to be done. I do mine every other day at 50% volume. I have one tank with 2 fish in it which I did tonight. They love me diving into the tank and actively swim in the flow of new water that I pour in. Even swimming sideways into the flow and almost frollicking about. I can even stroke them, very gently of course, but they will also swim towards my hands and rub me as they pass. These fish can be so friendly in time and will get used to you cleaning and water changing......it's a case of having to. :wink:

Goerge_of_the_Jungle

Fri Feb 06, 2009, 05:16 PM

Hi will,

I'm fairly new to keeping discus also, but i have spent about a week all up (over a few months) researching them (reading forum posts, searching web sites and talking to discus Breeders) before i got my first one.

I read that keeping some small fish like Tetras with your discus is a good way to let them know its safe. the Discus will use the Tetras as an alarm to let them know if danger is around. and if you decide to buy tetras, remember you dont have to stick with one sort, as long as their all about the same size, Tetras of most blood lines will school up together.

This might bring him out of hiding a little.

As for one of your questions from before about the 'Agressive Gourami' .. i know you have had this question addressed already, but just in case you haven't been informed yet, Gourami (most if not all) are extremely territorial, just like most 'sharks' and even Discus. They will fihgt for territory, and who ever loses, will most likely hide while the other is out and about.

I have some red fin sharks in with my Discus and it wasn't until i read a forum post on here that i learned that the sharks can harras the discus at night.

I spent over $1500 on my first tank and its equipment, and because i want my discus to live FOREVER!!! lol ... i went out and bought another tank just for him and a few discus mates.

the tank isn't ready yet, so he is still in the Community tank, but he is king of his little jungle, so no one picks on him ... for now ... ... plus if any of the other fishes did, i would smack their bums!! (just kidding)