A less is more approach this time around?....2nd go at this

[mboy]

Yello. great to be here. just a few things troubling me for my second attempt at this...
is it a right by saying that an established tank ie couple months, is more stable in terms of ph flux due to more ions in the water (water evaporation) - so then its better to do the least amount of water changes as possible - A less is more philosophy is what im proposing

im questioning this cause of my methodolgy for maintainace - intensive 50% wc a week , differed to Lams lfs (Parra) 20% a month or so and top up.
my discus previous 4xbrowns,3ft,planted, diyco2 8months running all suddenly got sick and died after i missed a week in intensive maintainace (holiday). Could it be that my intensive changes made them accustommed to quality water and any deviation from quality caused them death(bubble boy syndrome)? Should i then follow a less intensive apporoach as with Lams - a reputable store with sound wisdom on discus - (they're discus breed in their tanks for god sake without much input as opposed to a few threads that i have read here)

Sorry for the lengthy post...just getting it off my chest b4 i start anew...

[BigDaddyAdo]

Dont go down that road. You wont like where it leads.

Do you thik that you could train ourself to only need 1 meal a week? Or to not need as much oxygen? Or to get used to breathing toxic vapours with no ill effects?



Ado

[Hollowman]

my methodolgy for maintainace - intensive 50% wc a week


I think you need to do far more reading before you take discus back on again. What you propose as INTENSIVE is minimal for most of the people I know including myself. I do 50% every other day, sometimes more.
You are suggesting a recipe for disaster. Obviously the information you are receiving from your lfs is way off the mark. Read or ask here about the proper water conditions for discus, and you will change your mind. All you will do is kill your fish in a short time.Also a 3ft tank will be too small for a community of fish. I run a 3ft for one pair of fish, they are an established pair so are happy together, you will not get happy fish right off the bat, they need time to settle.
If you were thinking of stocking younger fish, again, forget it in a planted tank, you will find reasons why if you read more here.

Sorry to be blunt, but it just isn't going to help you if you think what you propose is right and other people follow your lead.

hth

Hollowman

[mboy]

k thanks for the input...Whilst i value the input i find it difficult to gauge WC based on varibles. It'll be a waste of my time do large frequent changes if the paramaters suggest i don't need to do so. So i realise just sticking with monitoring readings for the first month or two to see the frequency of WC i need... :)

[TW]

Hi mboy

wc 20% once a month - doesn't sound a good plan IMO.
It'll be a waste of my time do large frequent changes if the paramaters suggest i don't need to do soWhat parameters levels are you aiming for, that will indicate to you, that you have no need to change water? Just curious as to the levels you'll use.

[ILLUSN]

fish in a shop are there till they are sold 1 month MAX, fish in a home are LIFETIME companions and discus should live for well over 10yrs with propper care.


is it a right by saying that an established tank ie couple months, is more stable in terms of ph flux due to more ions in the water (water evaporation) - so then its better to do the least amount of water changes as possible

wrong! ph swings are caused by a buildup of organic matter in the tank, this gunk builds up and rots causing the tank to become more acedic. regular maintance keeps this much from building up, ie more water changes more stable water but YOU MUST AGE YOUR WATER before putting it anyware near your tanks.


intensive 50% wc a week , differed to Lams lfs (Parra) 20% a month or so and top up.


that is not intensive, my display tanks get 50% twice a week, my breeders and growouts get 90% A DAY!!! with a full wipedown of the sides and botoom. thats intensive but thats the price you pay for maximum growth and bigger more frequant spawns.


Should i then follow a less intensive apporoach as with Lams - a reputable store with sound wisdom on discus - (they're discus breed in their tanks for god sake without much input as opposed to a few threads that i have read here)

have you seen the filtration on their tanks? massive diy canisters that dwarf a 2260 on tanks with a water volume of under 200L the tanbks are so overfiltered thats how they get away with less changes (much like most german breeders).

as for fish breeding in shops there is a MASSIVE diffrence between spawning and breeding, a cold water change or ph drop can trigger a spawn but you havn't bred fish till you have raised fry, VERY few fish shops can do that.

if you want a less intensive maintance shedual do yourself a favour, get a BIG tank (say 450L minimum), put on a BIG sump (lets ay equall to the volume of the BIG tank) and stock at a densisty of 1 fish/100L so 4-5 discus in such a system, with a low bioload an massive filtration you could theoreticly get away with monthly water changes, keep the tank bare botom feed VERY regularly say 4-5x a day as much as they eat in 10-20 seconds so as no uneaten food stays in the tank and once a week just quickly siphone out any poo that you see.

[taksan]

50% a week intensive ? Read above ...you don't know intensive ...

Intensive is 50% a day ! I do a minimum of 50% biweekly on every tank ...my discus and L number tanks get 50% every 2nd day.

I have not missed a single WC .... not one in over 5 years.

[pink66]

I agree with Illusn. :wink: If you have limited time....Oversize tank and understock with fish may well be the answer.

I have a 571 ltr with a sump (50 ltrs) that holds six discus, 15 tetras, 4 cory, 2 peppermints and 2 koulies. Due to work committments I change 50% once a week and check the readings twice per week (so if anything alters, i can act quickly). When I do it this way my tank is stable and the fishies are all happy..and the 3 Juvies are growing like you would not believe... My roster at work had a hiccup and I had to wait 10 days to clean the tank (I was not happy), I tested before the change and the ph had dropped down slightly and there was too much waste hanging around... My tank is very lightly stocked (left over food is minimal but still there, not to mention how much the PBN poo) but is still affected if I do not keep to the plan.

The challenge you have is to maintain a long term relationship with your fishies.. that is why I am reading heaps and asking many questions to ensure my fish and I can get it right. (when i use my QT (95ltrs) i have to do a water change every single day to maintain the water quality correctly)

so as you can see.. I worked mine out on - "What can I do - regularly" - and then have purchased the tank and fish to suit..

so far so good (but a bit of healthy paranoia never goes astray 8-) )

good luck with working out what tank and fish combination will suit you. :D

[TW]

I think that tests of your water parameters (which you mention you will do) will very quickly show you, that the advice given here is sound. IMO, you just won't keep the parameters where they should be for discus without regular fresh water. So if you are honest with the tests, I think you'll end up agreeing with the good folk here

[Hollowman]

Sorry guys, I smell a rat. No one in their right mind would be so cruel to a living animal.
If this is a genuine fish keeper, I think he should give up, the next post will be in the emergency forum, asking why his fish are dieing.

:evil:

We all know the facts, we mostly all have the same ideas on water changing because we know it works, and why???.....because those who have gone before us have found out the hard way. We use techniques that we know raises and maintains a healthy fish stock. So for me people who bluntly disregard good advice are arrogantly asking for trouble.

I will try to help anyone, but he is on his own as far as I am concerned.

Sorry,

H

[mboy]

Sorry guys, I smell a rat. No one in their right mind would be so cruel to a living animal.
If this is a genuine fish keeper, I think he should give up, the next post will be in the emergency forum, asking why his fish are dieing.

:evil:

We all know the facts, we mostly all have the same ideas on water changing because we know it works, and why???.....because those who have gone before us have found out the hard way. We use techniques that we know raises and maintains a healthy fish stock. So for me people who bluntly disregard good advice are arrogantly asking for trouble.

I will try to help anyone, but he is on his own as far as I am concerned.

Sorry,

H

I don't understand why you wouldn't believe me...Can't there be a misguided person among those here...And yes i have seen the error in my logic. Which is why i'm thinking a more pragmatc approach to WC (i.e water testing to discover the required WC based on my factors in my tank such as fish load and feeding) as there too many variables.90% 50% 80% is there a right one? I remeber rightly in this board that there was a person whom said 'there is no right way'. Taking on a figure from the sky and taking it on face value has caused me trouble in the past. And this is why i can't afford to do the same again.

It is also why i came to this board and have called on the wisdom of the people here. BTW haven't started yet so i trying to be informed before my second go...I previously suggested something in my mind and was taken back at the responses...sure i was wrong i can accept that..i was ill informed and peoples practices are different from others due to personal circumstances.

Thanks for everyones help. I'll take it on board :) i'll let you know when i begin.(got uni exams so it'll be a few of weeks)..

[Hollowman]

Ok, do a seach for DOC's or Dissolved Organic Compounds,

Also, think about living in a room with no windows, no toilet and a door that opens for ten minutes once a week. You are in there with 4 other people, you have food and drink to eat on a daily basis, and everyone smokes 20 a day. What do you think it would feel like living in there on the last day of the week? would you start to feel sick or stressed?

We are responsible when keeping fish to keep them in conditions where they with thrive and have happy lives. We have just had a post from a member who has lost a loved fish after 9 years. I am sure he never only did minimal water changes.
Water changes depend on many factors, each one you can openly discuss here, you come in with sweeping statements which are totally wrong or misguided. I recommend you decide what you mean to do, after doing some extensive research on discus requirements. We can help then.

H

[rwel4809]

Hey mboy,

just remember that fish keeping is all about patience and and care, and endlessly spending cash you don't have!!! if you think that you might get bored of the water changes and other tank maintanence then discus may not be for you..

While you can sometimes get lucky and find a good Discus at an LFS, there are only 2 or three shops who really no how to look after discus in Sydney. I recommend that you visit Wayne and Bec at Xtreme - they really know there stuff and have good quality fish on a regular basis.

I would steer well clear of diy co2 for discus too many things can go wrong unless you're an expert, and for that matter don't buy any cheap equipment. They are expensive fish and its just not worth the effort cutting corners.

The minimum equipment you will need for discus is:

1) a big enough tank (at least 40, preferably 60 litres of water per fish) It is best to keep 5 or more discus so it would be best to get a tank that is at least 250 litres preferably more.

2) a decent canister filter - for a 250 litre tank an Eheim 2217 is good - they cost a couple of hundred bucks but everyone here swares by them

3) decent heater - I use a Jager heater, go for a 300 watt model - you will need to keep the tank at a steady 29-30 oC

4) air pump with line and stone - Discus need lots of oxygen - I have an airline attached to a sponge filter that I keep in the main display tank, The advantage is that I can use this seasoned filter when I need to use the quarantine

5) quarantine tank - this can be quite simple - 100 litre tank, air pump, sponge filter and 200 watt heater - you will need this for adding new fish and it is easier/cheaper to medicate your existing ones in a smaller water volume

6) water aging barrel - you will need a barrel in which you can treat and age and heat water for water changes - I have a 75 litre which allows me to do a 25% water change every other day - I would do more but I don't have the space in my appartment for a larger barrel. I filter my water through an RO unit, but you don't need to do that as long as you add prime to dechlorinate. In my aging barrel I have a 250 watt heater - a cheap internal filter to keep the water moving and a pump to pump the aged water into the tank via a plastic tube. It is best to age the water for at least 24 hours - trust me the fish really appreciate it!

you'd be lucky to get away with spending less than $ 1,500.00 on intitial set up and double that for a planted tank with lights and C02 - this might sound expensive, but trust me that's what it costs!

I don't want to put you off discus keeping, I just thought I'd let you know what I, and many others on this forum that I learnt from, consider to be the minimum requirements for discus.

HTH R

[DIY]

Can't there be a misguided person among those here....

Errr... I think there might be one misguided person here.. :lol: :lol: :lol: But seriously you are heading down a dangerous road that many, many first time discus keepers try.. I also spent much time early on thinking "surely you just don't need to do that many w/changes. all these discus people are doing this becuase they are too scared to try something new..."
After a few years (and plenty of sick discus) I know better and I change just as much as everyone else. The real "secret" to keeping discus is you keep the water not the discus.... If the water is good, the discus will be healthy. I have never been to Lam's so I don't know but I really suspect there's more than to it than what you have been told...



Which is why i'm thinking a more pragmatc approach to WC (i.e water testing to discover the required WC based on my factors in my tank such as fish load and feeding) as there too many variables.90% 50% 80% is there a right one?

Actually you are right - any one % figure may not be 100% right for your setup. The question for you is - would you rather do too little and have sick and/or dying discus or too much? too much will not hurt and provide a buffer in case you have to miss a w/c due to commitments like exams.. too little and you are asking for trouble!

I actually think water testing is a good approach to prove to yourself what is required. As long as you are prepared to do tests every day and record the results so you can track the quality of the water over say a six month period. This will ensure you fully understand the water degradation over a long term, rather than just testing over couple of weeks. You also need to be mentally prepared for results, if the results prove you need to perform 2 x 50% a week to maintain quality over a long period, will you be honestly be prepared to accept it?

And most importantly what tests do you plan to perform to confirm water quality?