EI Ferts & Discus WC Schedule

[TW]

Anyone here combine EI & planted discus tanks?

How do you modify it to bi-weekly water changes?

If EI doesn't convert, do any of you use the same dry ferts as for EI but a differing dosing regime, have discus & do bi water changes. How does the dosing work for the dry stuff, when not in EI quantities.

My tank is around 138G or 523 Litres.

Any ideas greatly appreciated.

cheers

[fishgeek]

EI doesnt have set quantities

the principles as i understand are to regularly replenish nutrients in the water column and to keep them stable with regular water changing

doing changes twice weekly i would just use something like the nutricalc to get a rough idea and dose it at say half the volume with each water change rather than the whole lot weekly

i would have thought most discus keepers would baulk at the thought of adding nitrogen to there water?

andrew

[TW]

Thanks Andrew for the advice.

On a previous tank with discus, for about 2yrs, I was following EI with 1x 50% weekly. Also for another of couple years previously as well (prior to discus).

Until this week, I haven't dosed the 7ft all, relying on the ADA for nuturients. Figure it's about time I started a fert schedule.

EI doesnt have set quantities For the prev tank, I'd been following this schedule http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm (the schedule for tank size closest to 43G).


doing changes twice weekly i would just use something like the nutricalc to get a rough idea and dose it at say half the volume with each water change rather than the whole lot weekly Sounds good, but what is "nutricalc "


i would have thought most discus keepers would baulk at the thought of adding nitrogen to there water? If I shouldn't be adding it, I will stop. I like my plants, but like my discus BETTER. Here's the dry ferts I have on hand:-

Potassium Phosphate (KH2P04)
Potassium Nitrate (KN03)
(Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4)

Which one is the nitrogen?

If I have the wrong powders & this isn't right for discus at all, what ferts should I be doing? Keen to use the dry powers still if I can, as it works out so much cheaper than buying prepared solutions. Are there different dry ferts I should be using instead?

I use the prepared solutions for traces though (Flourish & Flourish Iron).

[ILLUSN]

The KNO3 id the nitrogen in water it dissassociates to K+ and N03-. NO3- is the end product of the nitrogen cycle and what we try and remove with water changes.

i personally wouldn't be adding KNO3 or KH2PO4 there should be plenty of PO4 from the food yu feed the fish and NO3 from the fish waste. I'd just add KSO4 after each water change to keep the potasium up.

[TW]

Thanks for the info.

So, it's out with the KNO3 or KH2PO4, just dose KS04 after each water change. What I have is K2S04, is that the same thing?

How do I figure out the right amount? The dosing schedule I have (EI) says:-

227-303 litre tank (my tank's around this size)
1/4 tps K2S04 x 3
15ml traces x 3
iron as per seachem instructions

473 litre tank (My tank's a little bigger at 523L)
1/2 tps K2S04 x 3
30ml traces x 3
iron as per seachem instructions

Would I use these same amounts, but only twice a week, after each water change. Does that sound about right?

Thanks in advance.

[fishgeek]

i would tend to disagree with illusn on this one

as plants are growing they use mostly Nitrogen,Phosphate and Kpotassium... probably in pretty much the same ratio as terrestrial plants

illusn is right in suggesting that nitrogen will come from feed and fish excretions
and also right in suggesting that in harder waters there is phosphate and a source will be food

this is where it get s a bit confusing
EI says chuck lots in and try not to limit the plants growth by being deficient in nutrients

now if you have no carbon additions (and you used to as i know you mentioned some issues with it) and low light then illusns comments may work out fine

if you have higher light and are adding carbon then you will likely end up with a nitrogen limited tank
i think(and i really dont subscribe to any theory very closely so apologies if i have this wrong) EI would rather you had a light limited tank

The nitrogen and discus comment was not meant as it is a bad thing , just merely an observation of what discus keepers generally put first .. fish and water quality rather than plant growth
I have added nitrogen as terrestrial fertiliser ammonia before, worse for the fish as far as toxicity and also better at promoting algae

The KNO3 is likely to be needed in my opinion
The Phosphate wont be an issue
I dont like sulphate purely because i worry that if you have an active substrate that can bind it then you have potentially worse problems if any substrate does go anaerobic and you produce hydrogen sulphide... no experience as i have never used sulphate for that reason

A lot of this is speculation on my part

The nutricalc is a downloadable software that many of the plant people use to get a rough idea of what to dose, obviously lighting and carbon etc all make a big difference

sorry to confuse things
andrew

[fishgeek]

just read youur link TW
James is off ukaps a british plant forum , he generally knows what he is talking about and has also a nutrient calculator on his sight

Clive or ceg of ukaps also knows what he is talking about
both know a lot more than me

[TW]

Andrew

I'm more confused than ever. A few years back, plants probably came first. Discus come first now, but there MUST be plants.

The tank has pressurised C02 injection.

Lighting is usually 2.7wpg, but 1 row is out at the moment, so only running 1.3wpg.

I think ILLUSN meant K2SO4, when he said that I should dose KSO4 to keep the potassium up, but I think that's the one you say you don't like due to possible anaerobic issues.

But you think I may need KN03, depending upon my lighting? Given that it will usually be 2.7wpg, do you think tank needs KN03?

I'm hoping that other planted discus keepers, who inject C02, can tell me what they do.

Do you think I should find that uk forum (ukaps ) & ask my questions there. I have asked this question already on a more plant orientated forum, but I'm not sure really understand the discus factor.


Anyway, thanks once again for your help.

[fishgeek]

discus shouldn't make any difference at all

it is just discus keepers(i say that never having kept discus - so obviously not knowing what i am talking about and making wild generalisations)

lost of light will encourage more photosynthesis
photosynthesis involves the use of carbon(provided as co2) N,P,K and then to a lesser degree all the other things

so if you have lots of light your plant tank will grow at the rate of whatever is limited
if you add all things in the right ratio then nothing will be left over, pretty hard to achieve

EI seems to me to suggest throwing most things in excess and getting your mind around the fact that high levels aren't a big issue

For good water quality we have always been told that nitrates are a big issue, i dont measure anything anymore i just watch the fish
I do add KNO3
If the plants are growing and utilising it , then it will be low in water readings

maybe if you start with out it you can see if your nitrate level is always low then you will know that you do need to add it, at least the test kits for nitrate are affordable and relatively accurate

I assume you had been adding it before?
That should give you some confidence on how much you can add without fish being bothered
Having half the lights out though will have halved your plant growth and so crudely and empirically halved your nutrient need

Do you get to see how each tank is different

Yes i would ask in multiple places , I'm sure you will find that each forum has a general way of doing things, either because they d that and people congregate there that agree or because someone first said this is the way and others have just heard and repeated... i find trying to read multiple answers and finding what i feel most comfortable with is fine for me
I know other may just find it all confusing and want a simple recipe book answer... i dont personally believe there is one

Other interesting sites might be tom barrs Barr Report, mainly planted and EI pages, they confuse me
And DPH discus page Holland for good knowledgeable discus keepers, or maybe because I know nothing I am easily BS'ed into believing them?!

otherwise jut go with illusn at least they are regularly about on the forum to aid you and to my mind seem to provide pretty good quality answers

must be others about that have an opinion too

[fishgeek]

what did you decide to do?

[pink66]

Ouch....... My Head Hurts....... :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Hope you have been able to work this one out TW :) :)

[TW]

what did you decide to do?Procrastinate LOL, which I tend to do when I'm just not sure. Think I'm one of those who want a simple recipe book answer... but realistically, I agree there isn't likely to be one.
Ouch....... My Head Hurtsmine too
discus shouldn't make any difference at all I think they might. EI is used mainly by hobbyists with small fish & usually less sensitive fish. Discus, being bigger most likely create more waste (bigger fish = bigger poos). Their food (beef heart) might also leave a little more waste behind, so does this equal less need for additional nitrate, as the discus & their food provide more of this than would the stock of other planted aquariums????? Also given that discus are said to need a lower level of nitrate, should I aim to barely meet the plant's nitrate requirement, rather than provide in excess. The twice weekly water change of discus tanks Vs large weekly change in the EI routine also changes things.
I assume you had been adding it before? That should give you some confidence on how much you can add without fish being bothered I have followed EI for several years, including more than 1 year with discus. At that stage, I stuck with 1 x 50% wc, but since upgrading to the 7ft, I changed to 2 changes per week. Plus, as you don't need to fertilise an ADA tank for the 1st few months, since the upgrade I haven't been fertilising. I have yellow leaves on some anubia, so my plants tell me I must dose iron, at least.
maybe if you start with out it you can see if your nitrate level is always low then you will know that you do need to add it, at least the test kits for nitrate are affordable and relatively accurate that's probably what I need to do. Like you, I don't measure things anymore. I just watch the fish. I have all the kits though & test on the rare occasions when I suspect an issue. But, I probably do need to do the nitrate test to help me decide dosing.
Yes i would ask in multiple placesI haven't done this yet, but I will.
must be others about that have an opinion too

[TW]

Forgot to say that both my lights are running again now, so I'm back up to 2.7wpg (from 1.39wpg)

[AHC]

I can see the brain strain i get from reading this thread is going to stay as i am heading down the same road as you TW. Im learning from this so hopefully by the time im set up we have some concrete thoughts. I wish i could offer something to help you.

I wish somebody designed a digital meter to measure nutrients etc like the PH meter measures PH.

[TW]

I wish somebody designed a digital meter to measure nutrients etc like the PH meter measures PH. now that would be handy

[moneymike]

I'm in the same boat as TW with the confusion of using EI. I recently moved my Discus to a bare bottom so I could really get the plants established enough and not let that effect my Discus negatively.

Might I suggest asking people on the SFBAAPS forum? (San Francisco Bay Area Aquatic Plant Society). I'm not a chemist, so I need people to tell me what will work. They have some plant geniuses there.