Fluke information and video under the microscope

[DIY]

Took a scraping from one of my juvi's that has been dark for a little while and put it under the microsope. I suspected flukes as he occasionaly flashed but wanted to be sure. I certainly found one.

The link below is a video I took - it's what a live fluke looks like under the microscope :cry:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/fbsmith/aquarium/flukes.avi

I have posted information about flukes lower down in this thread :wink:

[DIY]

Running through my worming regime, I remembered the Praziquental I had was pretty old and was getting out of date :oops:. Having confirmed flukes after using prazi I checked the use by date on the tablets I had and errr... well it was a bit older than I first thought :oops: :lol:

I bought some fresh prazi, and dosed a few days ago with noticable differences, all the treated discus had a supressed appetite and the juvi that was dark has improved considerably.

From my experience - I recommend always buying and using the freshest (longest use by date) prazi you can find :wink:

[swingn]

I was under the impression that Metro was the best treatment for Gill Flukes... Or is it just another treatment :?:

[Xtreme]

Metro is for internal flagellates

I use PP for flukes


HTH

[DIY]

I use PP for flukes
HTH

I considered PP, but it's no good in a planted tank - and isn't it pretty harsh on the bio-filter?

Sure works out cheaper though :wink:

[JT]

just wonder, where can i get Praziquental??

thanks

[Xtreme]

Most LFS stock it or u can get it from here,


http://www.aquariumsuppliesaustralia.com.au/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1269

HTH

[BigDaddyAdo]

Is Prazi useful for other external parasites?


Ado

[DIY]

It's targeted to flukes and tapeworms, I don't think it's effective for other parasites including roundworms hence the need to worm with levamisole (Big-L) as well as prazi.

[DIY]

Been doing some research on flukes and they are scary little buggers... here is a summary of interesting info I have found out.

There are two main types of flukes, referred to as Skin Flukes and Gill Flukes but that is only a preference both types will happily live and eat in both places they just have a preference for one or the other.

Skin flukes are actually Gyrodactylus. (I'll refer to them as Gyro for short :wink: ) Gyro's give birth and each Gyro has several generations of young, so an adult Gyro will have an unborn Gyro, and that unborn gyro in turn also has a developing embryo. A newly born Gyro will subsequently give birth to another Gyro in 24 hours... this is temperature dependant and most of the info I have found is for pond temps.. Discus temps are obviously higher which will speed up the lifecycle so it's probably much quicker than 24 hours but I haven't found info on just how quick it is at 28-30 degrees.

Gyro attach to the fish with large hooks which are laden with bacteria. The hooks puncture the skin or gill lemellae creating an open wound which introduces the bacteria.

Eradicating Skin Flukes is in theory a bit easier then Gill Flukes becuase if all live Gryo's are killed then in thoery there is nothing left to give birth, however there is evidence and infor that suggests an unborn Gryo can stil be born from a dead parent, This mans a treatment will kill the adult but not the unborn... Even if this eveidence is wrong IME since a single remaining Gyro (with generations of unborn young inside!) could quickly reproduce to a dangerous population, repeat treatments are extremely important to ensure every last Gyro is killed.

Gill Flukes are actually Dactylogyrus (I'll refer to them as Dacto for short :wink: ) Dacto are egg layers, in typical pond temps they will release one or two eggs every hour, but as the temp rises the egglaying increases significantly. In a typical tropical community tank of 25C they will lay 20 eggs every hour :shock: :twisted:. Again I expect this will probably be even more at discus temps but I haven't found specific info. The eggs can be attached or float and can take months to hatch in cold temps (ponds in winter) but the hatching time again speeds up considerably with increasing temp and at 20C they hatch in about 4 days. A newly hatched Dacto IS FREESWIMMING - this is contrary to what I have seen people suggest. A newly hatched freeswimming dacto must find a host in 1-4 days (I have found confilcting time-lines on this) or it will perish (Thankfully it does have some weaknesses :? ). The lifecycle is vey temp dependant. Adults can actually be dormant in winter and the lifecycle reduces tp as quick as 2 weeks in ponds in summer, I expect in discus temps it may even be as quick as 1 - 1.5 weeks from hatched to egg laying, but again I haven't found exact info on this.

Dacto are attracted to the Gills, and will move along the body to the gills, puncturing the skin and depositing bacteria along the way :evil: in the gills they reach large populations and create massive damage. The damage they do can create a secondary problem of bacterial gill disease (BGD). As the gills are damaged, the fish will have trouble breathing, more noticable when the O2 concentration in the water reduces.

Eradicating Gill Flukes is recognised as difficult. The eggs are not harmed with treatments so a repeat treatment is necessary to catch the newly hatched flukes. Since a single adult can lay 20 eggs every hour, if one adult survives the first treatment then a third treatment will be necessary to get the eggs from that adult as they hatch and so on. In addiition to this the temp dependant life cycle can differ with individual strains of Dacto's so the treatments may be given at the wrong times not catching all of them, and finally there is plenty of anecdotal discussions about treatment resistant flukes - One scientfic paper I read suggested 34 weekly treatments to ensure eraditcation :shock: :shock:

Interestingly Salt dips are suggested to assist with reducing the population numbers, Formalin/Formaldehyde based meds are also considered effective at "controlling" the population of flukes and PP dips is often suggested as a very effective treatments - Extreme pointed out PP as a treatment above :thumb

Prazi is considered an effective treatment and has minimal problems associated with it (Bio-filter, plants etc aren't afected) but it isn't the cheapest method though, especially with multiple treatments.

I'm about to do my third treatment with prazi, with each treatment remaining in the tank for 2 days (as per instructions on bottle) but with 4 days between each treatment instead of 7. I'll probably do a fourth treatment as well :roll:

[Xtreme]

Hi there,

I found PP to b the cheapest

Good article DIY

[JT]

where can we get PP from??
Do you sell them Xtreme ??

[Fishontherun]

you can get PP from your local chemist !!

[DIY]

As Fishonthern said you get it from the chemist, I've only seen it sold in the Gold Cross brand. Not all chemists stock it but the larger ones should, from memory one of the online chemists do as well.

It's not a treatment you do carelessly though, it basically burns (more correctly it oxidises) everything organic in the tank including gills, fins etc. If you dose to high or too long It could kill your fish if you are careless (just like a lot of meds can) so be sure to read up on how to use it properly before you do and be careful!

[Xtreme]

All compound chemists stock it
They will give you the amount u want but 100gms will b plenty
Should costs no more than $20 for 100gms

HTH

[TW]

Thanks DIY for taking the time & effort to share this info. What with your breeding log & this, you are becoming quite the teacher :D

So, do you think we should be changing our standard worming technique to:-

Week 1: Big L
Week 2: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 3: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 4: Big L

And what about Big L? Should there be a 2nd dose per week?

[Hollowman]

It's not a treatment you do carelessly though, it basically burns (more correctly it oxidises) everything organic in the tank including gills, fins etc. If you dose to high or too long It could kill your fish if you are careless (just like a lot of meds can) so be sure to read up on how to use it properly before you do and be careful!

Absolutley agree DIY, another must have when treating with PP, is to have Hydrogen Peroxide on hand. This will counteract the PP and neutralise it.

H :wink:

[DIY]

Thanks DIY for taking the time & effort to share this info. What with your breeding log & this, you are becoming quite the teacher :D

So, do you think we should be changing our standard worming technique to:-

Week 1: Big L
Week 2: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 3: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 4: Big L

And what about Big L? Should there be a 2nd dose per week?


Hmmm I'm certainly no teacher.. more like a fellow student willing to share my notes :lol: :lol:

I haven't looked into the lifecycles of all the possible nematodes/round worms that Big-L will treat to know to be honest, so I'd stick with the standard regime.

For prazi, based on what I have researched on fluke lifecycles my opinion is re-dosing prazi after 4 or 5 days for Discus temperature aquariums makes more sense than the standard 7 days, and at least a third treatment to try and catch any flukes that managed to survive the first treatment, or possibly any eggs that took longer to hatch. But that's my opinion and to be honest I haven't checked on the tapeworm lifecycle which is the other parasite prazi works on soif in doubt you should follow the instructions on the bottle :wink:

[TW]

Thanks DIY

[ivo]

great and useful analysis DIY. i find gill fluke can take ages to cure. i also notice when gill fluke occurs, not all discus in the tank are affected. i guess those infected ones may be weaker in health. i personally don't find prazi work that well. is it worthwhile or pointless if take away only those infected ones in a hospital tank to treat with PP and treat the main tank with prazi?

[DIY]

I'd say all in the tank are infected, but the ones with immune systems that are run down or weaker show the symptoms more as they get overtaken by flukes.

IMO not much point treating some seperately, the whole tank / all fish need to be treated. If prazi isn't working and you can't use PP because of a planted tank, could you put all of the fish in a BB tank for 2 weeks and treat with PP?

Over a 2 week period all the fluke eggs should have hatched and any flukes in the original tank will have died without a host to survive on. Of course this means ALL fish woud have to be removed from the original tank.

[ivo]

thats a great idea for future reference DIY (i don't have fluke problem atm but did have in the past and it probably will happen again in the future) . i guess i am just trying not to treat PP for the discus that don't show fluke problem since PP treatment is quite scary.

[benkk]

Just wonder

What's PP's full name ?? is PP the same sort of medicine similar to Prazi ??

from the treatment timetable:
Week 1: Big L
Week 2: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 3: Prazi (re-dose after 4 days)
Week 4: Big L


Can Prazi be replace with PP ? and what's the dose ??

thanks

[DIY]

Check out this thread :wink:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14585

[carolerex]

Thanks for all this useful information. Can some one please tell us what Big L is and where you obtain it from

[DIY]

It's a brand of wormer that has Levamisole as it's active ingredient, there'a sticky on Lavamisole here: :wink:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4547

[carolerex]

Thanks DIY lots of information there, very helpful.