Breeding journal with pictures [Archive]

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:48 AM

Well, finally after planning for the challenge of breeding discus about 5 years ago and spending the last 4 years in frustration.. I have reached the next milestone in my quest to breed discus!

Up to this point I have had about 6 pairs, and I lost count of spawns - something like 40 or 50 spawns but I have never had eggs hatch to wrigglers :oops: On a lot of those pairings I believe I have had two females or "lazy" males... I don't know why this is, it could be the environment(s) I have provided them or actually I suspect it's just been bad luck.

Anyway after previous frustrations causing me to lose interest in breeding for a while and putting my time and focus into the co2 planted side of things as well as other hobbies - a few months ago I found a renewed determination and interest in breeding.

I decided then I need to change my tack entirely and get my discus from several different sources, rather than almost entirely from the one source. I theorised this would increase my chances of getting a "working" male that I believe has been my roadblock up to this point. This created it's own problems of course as multiple sources of discus means multiple sources of problems (parasites, infection etc....). I now have a well stocked aquarium medication box :roll: :lol:

It didn't take long to get some new pairings, The most likely pairing along with the others I let spawn in my main tank to hopefully "learn" while I setup a(nother) new tank ready for them. I carefully cycled the new tank with a fishless cycle (luckily I found someone that had an old bottle of "pure ammonia") to ensure the tank was ready and parasite/disease free - this took a full 4 weeks to cycle :roll:. In the meantime I wormed all my tanks with Big-L and Prazi - 6 weeks of treatments (3 doses of Big-L at 3 week intervals)

About 2 weeks ago I transfered the pair into the new tank, in the process I gave them a 20 minute PP dip as a further precuation to try to have a parasite free breeding tank. I use seperate equipment on this tank, and I always wash my hands carefully if I have worked on any other tank prior to this one!

Almost immediately they spawned in the tank :blob.. but the male started eating the eggs on the end of the second day, just as he had been doing in the community tank. The eggs looked fine after 24 hours, but after 48 a lot had gone white. Further reading suggested eggs that weren't fertile usually go white within 24 hours, eggs going white after 24 hours is usually an environmental issue. I put a guard on the remaining eggs, of which there was only about a dozen possibly good eggs left to see if they were at least fertilised!. The gaurd seemed to stress the female but I left it there and by midnight that evening 3 had hatched ... I had myself a male that fertilsed eggs :wave1

I took the guard off to see if they would look after the 3 little wrigglers but in the morning the cone was totally clean :boohoo

I wasn't sure if the male was trying to remove the white eggs and accidently picking out good ones including the wrigglers in the process or if he was just an egg eater - I decided the next spawn I would put the guard on straght away rather than after 48 hours, and leave it on!

To try and increase the number of good eggs when they next spawned I turned off the air to the sponge filter so there was no water movement during the spawning process. About an hour after they finished I turned the air back on, added a gaurd to the cone, added methlyene blue to the tank and added an airstone near the cone.

I'll post a timeline next and then some pictures.

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:49 AM

Timeline:

Sunday 28/09 5pm Spawning Started, turned off air to sponge filter

Sunday 28/09 6pm spawning had stopped

Sunday 28/09 7pm Turned air back on, added guard, added meth blue, added airstone.

Monday 29/09 6pm - 24 hour mark - all eggs looked fine only about 3 white ones out of approx 100-120 eggs

Tuesday 30/09 6pm - 48 hour mark - eggs still looked ok, white eggs increased to about 20-30 eggs

Tuesday 30/09 11pm - quick check none hatched

Wednesday 1/10 7am - wrigglers!! too hard to count but maybe 70-80 of them fungus starting on some white eggs

Wednesday 1/10 6pm - 72 hours after spawn, wrigglers looking good, both parents seem more attentive than they have been up to this point

Thursday 2/10 6pm - 4 days after spawn wrigglers still looking good. performing very small waterchanges daily - mainly enough to to suck out waste. Feeding parents very little to keep water quality good. Occaisonal wriggler falling off the cone. Female who is more attentive picks them up and spits back onto the cone.. Cool!

Friday 3/10 6pm - 5 days after spawn, wrigglers starting to "fall off" the cone more and more. Notice male picking up some and spitting back onto cone as well. This is excellent - I had him earmarked as an egg eater but he cares for the wrigglers OK. I was prepared to take him out if required but may not need to! Some of the wriggler break loose and swim briefly before being picked up and spat back onto cone. I wrap the dark sponge filter in white filter pad material in preperation for freeswimmers.

Saturday 4/10 9am - Chaos for the poor parents, wrigglers are coming off the cone and swimming briefly making them constantly pick them up and spitting them back on cone. funny to watch as the parents try to catch them as they dart about in the water..

Saturday 4/10 11:30am - majority of the batch are now swimming about, parents have lost the battle! Some of them have already attached to the sides of the female

Saturday 4/10 12:00 midday - just under 6 days since spawn and all the wrigglers have turned to freeswimmers and apart from a couple of stragglers all have attached to the female. removed egg guard.

Suturday 4/10 6pm - have people around for bbq, traffic in front of tank does not seem to worry parents too much - phew! leave tank alone after that.

Sunday 5/10 9am - Lose time watching... nothing to reoprt other than parents appear to have settled into feeding the fry well. Slow graceful movements and close to each other. took cone out and gave it a good clean, put back in as the parents seemed to stress without cone in tank.

Sunday 5/10 6pm - 1 full week since spawn and things going well. Female is learning to "palm off" fry to male every now and then by going light and darting under the male... interesting to watch. perform small waterchange and about 1/3 of the fry drop to the bottom... not sure why! check water aging drum and temp is only 21 degrees.. bugger colder water appears to have shocked the fry!!

Monday 6/10 6pm just over 2 days free swimming and the look like they are growing. All the fry that were on bottom after cold water change appear to have re-attached ok... phew! replace broken heaters (both heaters had burned out!) in water aging drum!

Tuesday 7/10 12 midday - not much to report, things going ok, fry eating off parents well. Only had a few dead ones to this point. Not sure what is "normal" but I expect there will always be a few weak ones that don't make it, don't attach properly etc. haven't noticed any "belly sliiders" that I have read about but that may come later. Been putting off posting on forum for fear of "jinxing" the batch but decide to do it anyway... :lol:

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:51 AM

Pictures of the tank after spawning, and eggs on the cone

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:52 AM

Pictures of the wrigglers, including a picture of two that managed to get onto the front glass before the parents put them back on the cone!

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:54 AM

Picture of them on the first (or maybe second can't remember when I took this pic) day of free swimming

DIY

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 05:57 AM

Third day of free swimming pictures including one of the parents. There's still some meth blue remaining in tank so they arn't the clearest pictures.

Merrilyn

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 06:59 AM

Congratulations !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's fantastic news.

:wave1

:thumb :cheers

:wave2 :blob

I always knew you'd get there :P

pink66

Tue Oct 07, 2008, 09:06 AM

Totally ACE - those pics do not do your male justice... Can't wait to see the babies as they grow..

:wave2 :mrgreen :wave2 :mrgreen :wave2

Your juvies must be feeling a bit nervous at the moment.. You may just need the tank for aaaallllll you new babies..

congrats and fingers crossed for them continuing to swim about.

Sharon

DIY

Wed Oct 08, 2008, 10:26 AM

Thanks Merrilyn and Sharon!

Wednesday 8/10 - 4th day free swimming, really noticing the growth! lost 3 or 4 smaller ones - hopefully this is normal.

Wed Oct 08, 2008, 10:54 AM

Wow, that's fantastic. Thanks for all the detail. Very interesting read.

DIY

Wed Oct 08, 2008, 01:02 PM

Wednesday 8/10 11:30pm - Setup my first brine shrimp hatcher, just an inverted 600ml water bottle with an airline going through the lid. It's sitting in my QT tank which happens to be empty at the moment. I bought some decapsulated eggs from the lfs... hopefully they hatch :shock:

I also bought some freeze dried decapsulted brine shrimp cysts.. I'm hoping the fry will eat them to limit the amount of bbs hatching I need to do.

All the pictures so far have been taken without flash, I didn't want to scare or shock the parents or the fry. I might try taking a few with the flash tomorrow to try and get some better pics!

Wow, that's fantastic. Thanks for all the detail. Very interesting read.

Thanks!

I'm hoping someone will benefit from my rambling :ug , I was looking for something like this myself so I figure others might find it useful.

norto

Wed Oct 08, 2008, 10:14 PM

Well Done DIY just goes to show that perserverance pays off.
Regards
Norto. :)

BigDaddyAdo

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 12:48 AM

Congrats...... Keep the pictures and progress reports rolling......:)

Ado

DIY

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 12:49 AM

Thanks Norto,

I'm not one to promote a product normally, and I'm generally a bit of a skeptic but I have to say that I think adding pro-more has helped, I'm getting quite a few discus pairing up, including 3-way and 4-way fights over who is actually going to spawn with each other - they just seem more "enthusiastic" spawners than I have had before!
I've upped the amount in my latest b/h mix... :shock:

Congrats...... Keep the pictures and progress reports rolling......:)

Ado

Thanks - will do :wink:

DIY

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 12:55 PM

Thursday 9/10 6:00pm - Fifth day freeswimming and still growing nicely. I'm upping the daily w/c from 15-20% to 30-40% as the fry are getting bigger and stronger. I haven't seen any dead fry in the last 24 hours... I'm still assuming the previous few losses are normal - possibly they were ones not developing properly?

Taken a picture of the batch as well as I could.. I think I have around 50-60 :cheers

pink66

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 02:51 PM

They are just so cute :wink: :wink: :wink:

pink66

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 02:52 PM

sorry duplication

iro11a

Thu Oct 09, 2008, 11:24 PM

Hey congrats mate the photos are tops :P i did have a breeding pair myself which raised fry until i went overseas for 2 months and lost the female :(

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:13 AM

hi mate

nice picture there. Just wonder what's the size of your tank ??

thanks

DIY

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:22 AM

It's a 110L sunsun - my lfs had a good special on them, and the minister of home affairs approved :lol: :lol:

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:25 AM

can you please tell me the dimension of this tank

thanks very much

DIY

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:32 AM

It's the HRX-800, link to the details from sun-sun's page:

http://www.sunsun-china.com/english/product.aspx?kid=130&pid=57

Enjoy!

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:40 AM

thank you very much for the info.
Also, where did you get your meth blue?? i am looking to get some for my breeding tank as well.

Cheers

DIY

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 01:58 AM

thank you very much for the info.
Also, where did you get your meth blue?? i am looking to get some for my breeding tank as well.

Cheers

I mail ordered it from one of the sponsors :wink: more than one sponsor of this forum sells it!

finito

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 06:10 AM

Hi
I saw your post and all the photos.
Pretty interesting. The male was with me for nearly 2 years duiring the time, it is so funny, that he never showed any interest in breeding.
Good luck with babies.

Best Regards
Tony

DIY

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 06:38 AM

Thanks Tony,

Guess he just needed a change of scenery and the right female.. :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DIY

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 06:49 AM

Friday 10/10 5:30pm - 6 days freeswimming and still growing well. No dead ones (that I have found anyway) in the last 48 hours. Brine Shrimp hatching hasn't been very successful, only about a 10% hatch rate.. the fry don't seem ready to accept them just yet which is lucky.

I think the b.s. hatch rate may be low because the pH in the saltwater mix is too low, I've added more baking soda to see if that helps

Merrilyn

Fri Oct 10, 2008, 12:11 PM

Love your photos DIY. So clear.

It's normal to lose a few fry in the first few days. That's why the parents lay so many. For them a successful spawn will be one where at least two fry survive out of a batch of 200 eggs !

Brine shrimp can be difficult to hatch if the eggs are a bit old or haven't been stored under refrigeration. You'll the fry will eventually eat even the unhatched de-capsulated eggs too, so it's not a great loss.

Fingers crossed for you. It's all going exactly as it should. :P

DIY

Sat Oct 11, 2008, 02:30 PM

Thanks merrilyn, I've tried the decap and normal eggs and both aren't hatching well. I suspect they are old though I bought them from my lfs and they look like they haven't been selling them much - Might have to mail order some.

Saturday 11/10 - 7th day freeswimming, all still OK and growing. I tried giving them the small amount of bbs I have manged to hatch, as well as the freeze dried decapped BBS cysts and I also tried cyclop-eeze but so far they only seem to want to feed from the parents :roll:. The parents are swapping feed duty more often now, sometimes they only last a few minutes before they "dump" they batch onto the partner :lol:

Hollowman

Sat Oct 11, 2008, 02:44 PM

Great thread DIY, I love the SS btw :D

H

Merrilyn

Sun Oct 12, 2008, 03:42 AM

I rinse my BBS in fresh water after hatching, then add them to a little tank water in a cup, take up an eyedropper full of BBS and water, and gently "roll" them down the flanks of the parent with the feeding fry. They gradually learn to snap at the shrimp, because it's in the place where they expect to find food.

It's all good. Just keep doing what you're doing. They'll get there :P

DIY

Sun Oct 12, 2008, 09:41 AM

Thanks Hollowman and Merrilyn,

Sunday 12/10 - 8th day freeswimming. Couldn't get any clear pictures today. My last batch of bbs hasn't hatched at all (yet) :roll: .. I again tried freeze dried cysts and cyclop-eeze. I also defrosted some frozen bbs and squirted it over the batch. It looked like a couple may have nibbled a bit of it but they still prefer to feed of the parents at the moment, I think they are just slow learners.. :lol: :lol:. The parents seem to be coping well so I'm not too worried :wink:

I've had a few days off but I'm back to work tomorrow so they will have to continue as they are until tomorrow evening.

Merrilyn

Sun Oct 12, 2008, 10:14 AM

LOL naaaah not slow learners, more like a plentiful supply of food from the parents, so there's no need to go looking for alternative food.

'Tis all good.

:P

DIY

Mon Oct 13, 2008, 12:41 PM

Monday 13/10 - 9th day freeswimming. Really starting to look like small fish now instead of little tadpoles :lol: . A few of them ate defrosted frozen bbs when I squirted it over the batch but quickly went back to the parents :roll: They are venturing further from their parents side more than they have before. Parents are still coping OK and don't seem concerned so everything seems OK still :wink:

Still no losses since 4th day of freeswimming which is good, my daily waterchange is up to 50%-60% which is where I plan to keep it for now.

pink66

Tue Oct 14, 2008, 08:38 AM

Can I place an order for the one second from the top right :lol: :lol:
Do you have your adoption papers drawn up yet ???

Well done Lindsay, they are looking wonderful 8-) 8-)

DIY

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 02:16 AM

Can I place an order for the one second from the top right :lol: :lol:
Do you have your adoption papers drawn up yet ???

Well done Lindsay, they are looking wonderful 8-) 8-)

Thanks - I'll let you net that one out when you come to pick it up :lol: :lol: :lol:

DIY

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 02:22 AM

Does anyone have an idea on when/what fry age I could treat with Praziquental for flukes?

I had wormed the breeders with prazi and Big-L prior to them spawning but have since found flukes under a microscope on one of my other discus that was treated with prazi at the same time - http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139787#139787

I now believe the prazi I used was ineffective as it was too old, and I am worried about the fry succumbing to a fluke infestation, I have seen the male flash a couple of times - but it may have been irritation from 60 odd hungry little mouths at his sides though :lol:

Kokoro

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 03:07 AM

This is a great thread DIY. I'm finding it very useful as i now have wrigglers for the first time.

Good luck with those fry. They look like they're healthy and growing well

DIY

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 08:20 AM

This is a great thread DIY. I'm finding it very useful as i now have wrigglers for the first time.

Good luck with those fry. They look like they're healthy and growing well

Thanks Kokoro, I was hoping someone would find it useful!

DIY

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 08:34 AM

Wednesday 15/10 - 11th day freeswimming. They are now eating other foods, scrounging off the bottom of the tank, eating bbs in the water etc. There is still a lot of them that are reluctant to leave the parent's sides and venture for other food, but there are some bigger braver ones that are almost constantly swimming around looking for alternatives.

On the Prazi treatment front, I have found info on some other forums where breeders have treated fry with prazi succesfully at 2 weeks old. I'm not sure I want to treat that young, but I'm also a little worried about waiting too long and hitting the "4 week syndrome" that is talked about in other forums and losing a lot of them while I am at work - so I'm thinking of treating them somewhere around the 20-25 days freeswimming age...any opinions?

Rowland

Wed Oct 15, 2008, 10:16 AM

Absolutely phenomenal thread! Congrats and thanks for all the excellent info!

DIY

Thu Oct 16, 2008, 12:30 PM

Thanks Rowland.

Thursday 16/10 - 12 days old. I'll refer to them by thier age properly now I have found out that when a discus goes freeswimming it's considered their birthday. I'm not sure why hatching isn't considered birth.. but hey that's the accepted method :ug :lol:
They are really taking to other foods now, almost all of them are scrounging the bottom and some of them even nibble on the edges of the b/h mix I give to the parents :shock: If anyone want's to know what's in my b/h mix - see this thread: http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17155. I haven't lost any since they were 4 days old which is great!.
They are starting to get big enough that I can pick out details and I can already see a few that are culls... except that's the part I'm going to struggle with :oops: I only want to keep or pass on to others strong, healthy fry... and that means culling the weak and imperfect but of course that's easy to say but not so easy to do :?

I think I got them all in this photo - anyone want to count or guess the qty of fry? Careful though, there may be some reflections :lol: :lol:

DIY

Fri Oct 17, 2008, 08:07 AM

Friday 17/10 - 13 days old. The growth every 24hrs is noticable. More and more of them are picking at my b/h mix so I took a photo of a group of 3 attacking a piece :lol: They are really investigating the tank now, picking at the filter etc. You can tell there are some that have a sort of patterning, and some that seem plain - I'm guessing the plain ones may be Snakeskins?

jesx57

Fri Oct 17, 2008, 08:09 AM

Great work, DIY.

DIY

Sun Oct 19, 2008, 06:24 AM

Sunday 19/10 - 15 days old now and all is well. Actually not much to report other than they are growing well and eating aggressively, always on the lookout for food - they absolutely love frozen BBS and my B/H mix. I'm doing 50-60% waterchanges each day, and when I'm home (and awake!) I'm feeding every 1-3 hours.

DIY

Sun Oct 19, 2008, 06:26 AM

I managed to photo a sequence of one of them going for and eating a piece of food.. pretty funny!

Hollowman

Sun Oct 19, 2008, 01:47 PM

Super photos DIY, keep them coming :D

Merrilyn

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 02:14 AM

It's fascinating to watch them change from little tadpoles, into true fish shapes with fins, and then finally flatten out into discus shapes.

Your photos are amazing :P

DIY

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 09:10 AM

Thanks Hollowman and Merrilyn :wink:

Tuesday 21/10 - 17 days old now, everything still going well. I have a pH monitor on this tank and I'm noticing the pH drop over a 24hour period which to me is an indicator the water is getting loaded up with organic acids and other waste products pretty quickly, not suprising with all those food to poo converters :shock: in the tank :lol: . I know I could add some pH buffer to the water to stop the pH dropping but IMO that's just hiding the symptom rather than dealing with the waste it so I'm upping the daily W/C % to around 80%

I've also received my new ebay toy today, an autofeeder :roll: which I have setup to feed a small amount while I am at work. I already had a couple of types of autofeeders but this one caught my eye becuase it has an airline attachment to keep the food dry, has plenty of options on feed time and fits inside the hood of the sunsun tank, whereas most others are designed to clamp to the sides of standard tanks. For now I have just crushed some tetra bits I had on hand to put into the feeder and it works pretty well.

DIY

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 09:12 AM

A couple of pics of the autofeeder inside the hood, actually sitting in the original top filter that I'm not using :lol:

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 11:18 AM

Such great photos & detail. Love the action eating shots.

How old are they, when they start taking on the round shape of discus?

DIY

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 01:28 PM

Such great photos & detail. Love the action eating shots.

How old are they, when they start taking on the round shape of discus?

Thanks TW, actually I'm not sure when since this is my first batch of fry :lol: :lol: I think they have already started heading that way since they are getting slightly taller all the time as you can see from the photo's. I will keep taking photo's every few days and it will be interesting to see the roundness taking shape, and when it's obvious they are in fact round :wink:

Tuesday 21/10 - 11pm, had a friend and fellow discus enthusiast around and whilst watching the fry I noticed one or two of them "flashing" and "rubbing" followed by sudden "darting" across the tank :x. As i beleive this is very likely due to flukes (I posted info about this earlier in this thread) I decided to treat them with prazi and see how they go. So far they haven't shown any ill-effects to the treatment. With the large daily water changes I'll have to add back in the prazi I take out in my daily w/c tomorrow. Fingers crossed the treatment doesn't do any harm to such young fry, and fixes the flashing/rubbing before it gets out of control.

Tue Oct 21, 2008, 01:33 PM

Fingers crossed.

DIY

Wed Oct 22, 2008, 07:30 AM

Wednesday 22/10 - 18 days old. After treating with prazi late last night I have to report.......... :shock:......... everything is fine! you wouldn't even know they had been medicated with anything. They are attacking their food like there's no tomorrow and I really can't see any noticable ill-effects from the treatment. :wave2

DIY

Thu Oct 23, 2008, 12:22 PM

Thursday 23/10 - 19 days old, I found the first dead one for a while behind the filter yesterday evening when I did the w/c, just after I posted they were all fine :roll: . I suspect it's one of the 4 or 5 that I have picked out as needing to cull. They don't seem to have developed properly, possibly their swim bladder because when they stop swimming they go to the bottom and rest, sometimes they even lie on their side. when they swim it's jerky and they start to sink as soon as they stop moving. I suspect the one that died couldn't tolerate the prazi treatment. I tried netting the remaining 3 or 4 but they sure can dart quickly when they want to :lol:. I managed to net one of them though and I'll try to get the others again when they get a little bit bigger and hopefully slower... I used a few drops of clove oil in about half a cup of tank water and the one I netted seemed to go peacefully :oops:

The rest are still eating well, their bodies are starting to take on a slight tinge of green colour and their fins as evident in the previous photo's have a faint pink/reddish colour. There is also an increasing difference in size.

DIY

Sat Oct 25, 2008, 12:17 PM

Saturday 25/10 - 3 weeks old! (21 days). Big changes this evening, I noticed this afternoon the male was picking on the female and seemed to be targeting her eye. Her eye appears to have some sort of damage from him attacking her but hopefully it will heal OK, it doesn't look too bad. While trying to decide wether to pull her or to pull him I took into account her fins had started to fray and she was looking a bit stressed and dark so I pulled her. I've put her in her own tank (my QT tank) with some salt for a rest, I'll give her plenty of fresh water and food for a while and let her recover.

I was struggling to keep the water in good condition in the 110l tank, the pH drop over a 24 hour period had increased to 0.8. I didn't want to start doing 2x w/c's a day as I would really struggle to fit it in my mornings before work so I decided it was also time to give them a bigger tank :roll: . I very, very carefully netted them and put them in a standard 4ft tank that I have been using to grow out some juvi's. I also put the male in with them as I figured it might help them settle quicker in the new tank with him there as well.

The male hasn't quite settled yet so looks a bit stressed in the photo, but the fry all seemed to have settled very quickly and were looking for food straight away. I also treated the second round of prazi at lights out... as I say big changes :lol: :lol:

Hollowman

Sat Oct 25, 2008, 01:18 PM

Great diary as usual DIY. Can I ask if you dosed the prazi at full strength?
The last photo is a great looking fish, the bars look spot on, lovely and straight, one to try to keep an eye on.
I think I would also have removed the female too, but now I am sure they (the fry)are happy eating a second food source, but wise to keep the male in as long as possible for confidence and for the smaller ones to feed on.

H :)

DIY

Sat Oct 25, 2008, 02:17 PM

Thanks H,

I dosed prazi at full strength, as I did the first round :wink:

DIY

Mon Oct 27, 2008, 12:48 PM

Monday 27/10 - 23 days old. They seem to be loving the bigger tank and flow from the canister filter, they'll swim in the water flow and then bow out for a rest, coming back again later :lol: You can see a bunch of them in the first photo swimming against the current.

The qantity of food they can consume is amazing, when I put my B/H mix in it's like a tank of pirahnas, each block will have a swarm of them attacking it :lol:

Hollowman

Mon Oct 27, 2008, 06:18 PM

You are doing well DIY, they all look very uniform in size. Certainly a beautiful sight. :wink:

H

DIY

Thu Oct 30, 2008, 09:46 AM

Thanks H, and yes it certainly is :wink:

Thursday 30/10 - 26 days old.

I did a third (and expected final) treatment of Prazi yesterday evening with no problems.

I removed the male tonight, he was starting to dart about and it was clear after watching for a while it was due to the fry occasionally trying to snack on his side. It really irritated him whenever they tried to snack and he was darting and dashing to get away.

The fry are incredible eaters, even with their tummies bulging to the point it looks like they are going to burst they are still hungry for food :roll:

The growth rate apears to have slowed a bit, they are still growing it's just not as immediately obvious each evening when I get home how much.

iro11a

Thu Oct 30, 2008, 09:55 AM

Great thread mate you got a really nice huge batch of fry there u will have alot of good ones to sell off in the next coming months just be careful with waterchanges one day i had 5 fry left they was prob 4 months old and after the water change they didt like it something must have been in my water which i let sit overnight and killed them all in 24 hours

DIY

Tue Nov 04, 2008, 12:41 PM

Tuesday 04/11 - 1 month old today.

Things aren't going quite as well now, I've lost 6 fry over the last 3 days, 2 each day. There is a few that are quite dark and breathing heavy.

It seems to fit the usual pattern that others refer to as the "4 week syndrome". I suspect it's just a very dangerous time for fry as they build up their immune system and anything like flukes or whatever can take them down before their immune system can fight back...

I'm changing 90% every day to maintain the water. The pH is dropping over a 24 hour period, but not as bad as when I had them in the 110l tank.

I carefully took a scraping from a couple of them today and looked under the microscope. Both scrapings showed gill flukes :roll: even after the recent prazi treatments. I also found something else. After searching on sites with microscope pictures, I think it might be velvet (oodinium) or possibly whitespot. They look sort of similar under the microscope but what I saw looked closer to velvet, and lots of it :banghead

I may be wrong as I'm still a newbie with a microscope, but I've started an acraflavine treatment for velvet and I'll see how it goes. Acraflavine is also reported to help detach flukes so hopefully it will help keep the flukes under control at the same time. The acraflavine I have is combined with malachite green - I think that's the only way you can get acraflavine here in Aus. I also added some salt, the usual 1tbsp per 10gallon. I considered adding more salt, but I was worried about how the fry would handle dumping the medication and lots of salt in all at once.

The growth rate is much slower now, I think thats failry normal from what I've read although the flukes and other problems may be impacting that as well.

Tue Nov 04, 2008, 12:54 PM

Fingers & toes crossed that the acraflavine treatment does the job for you

norto

Tue Nov 04, 2008, 07:12 PM

DIY,
I used to have the same problem but as soon as I lost a fish I would have a close look at the rest and if so would do a treatment of PP would bring them all good within 24 hrs.
Regards,
Norto.

DIY

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 07:12 AM

Thanks for the support TW :thumb

Thanks for the advice Norto. I thought they might be too small and delicate at a month old to treat with PP but if you've been successful it might be the go.. I'm wondering if I should stop the acraflavine treatment and try PP :?:

Wednesday 05/11 - 32 days old. I pulled out 5 dead ones this morning when I left for work.. :banghead and another 5 dead when I got home tonight :shock: :twisted: that's 10 in less than 24 hours...

DIY

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 08:46 AM

Wednesday 05/11 - 32 days old. 7:30pm update:

I decided to try PP as the acraflavine either wasn't working or by the time it worked I might not have any left :roll:

I swished a small net a couple of times and ended up with 10 that I put seperate from the main batch into my QT tank and treated them with Prazi. whilst prazi doesn't seem to be able to fully eradicate flukes it certainly knocks them back.. The 10 in my QT tank is my "if PP kills the main batch, at least I have some left" batch... :oops:

For the main batch I removed almost 100% water, disconnected the canister filter and removed the sponge. I filled the tank to about 3/4 and added PP to a 2ppm level. I plan to leave them in this for 2-3 hours then neutralise the PP and reconnect the filters. Fingers crossed they will be OK :shock:

ILLUSN

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 09:10 AM

good luck mate, I've lost so many batches of fry at this point, if it help before the parents next spawn treat them with pp, and try an stay away from bloodworms, i always seem to have more problems with fluke when i feed bloodworms but again it could just be coincidence.

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 09:37 AM

Everything's still crossed for you. Let us know.

DIY

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 11:30 AM

Thanks Guys

Wednesday 05/11 - 32 days old. 10:30pm update:

I neutralised the PP after 2 and 1/2 hours (10pm), topped up the tank, reconnected the filters and so far they seem OK.. hopefully it will help :ug

I took a quick photo of the tank with PP in it, and another of the small batch in the QT tank.

DIY

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 08:42 PM

Thursday 06/11 - 33 days old. 7:30am update:

8 dead in the main batch this morning :twisted: ... I could just be hoping, but I think the majority are looking better though, there is only 2 or 3 dark ones I could see with a quick look and the rest appear more active and "brighter".

Hollowman

Wed Nov 05, 2008, 09:09 PM

Damn shame you are loosing a few. The PP treatment should help vastly, it was a good shout. Keep up the good work DIY

H

DIY

Thu Nov 06, 2008, 07:58 AM

Thanks H,
Probably a stupid question.. but what did you mean by "it was a good shout"?

Thursday 06/11 - 33 days old. 6:30pm update:
Only found 1 dead when I got home :blob. Not that I'm happy 1 died but I think (hope?) the corner has been turned and the PP has had a positive effect. I don't see any really dark fry and I'm fairly sure they are more active and have a better appetite than before.
The 10 seperate from the main batch have a couple that are really dark, and they seem more lethargic.

I'm already thinking ahead.. and guessing I will need to repeat the PP treatment to keep the parasites at bay / try to break the parasite's lifecycle...

Ignore the blueish tint in the first photo - the colours came out wrong, the camera seems to get "fooled" by the light on the tank :roll:

Hollowman

Thu Nov 06, 2008, 10:54 AM

Hi DIY, you asked:
Probably a stupid question.. but what did you mean by "it was a good shout"?

I just meant that this was the sort of action that I was thinking of too, but I think it was ILLUSN who got in there before me, therefore a good 'shout' or 'call'
I think the removal of the male was right too, people often ask how long the parents should stay with the fry, and this has certainly shown that in this case that the male was showing uncomfortable signs, and you did the right thing.
What foods are you feeding now DIY? have you tried decaps? or finely ground BH yet?

DIY

Thu Nov 06, 2008, 11:51 AM

Got it, Thanks for your feedback & support H :thumb . I just hadn't heard the saying that way before, more used to "good call" :lol: :lol:

Do you think I should re-treat with PP? and when?

I'm feeding my B/H mix (it's finely ground) in the mornings and at least once in the evenings. Frozen bbs at least once in the evenings, during the day they are getting via an auto-feeder ground dry food, mostly tetra bits as I have heaps of it. they are also getting some freeze dried decaped bs eggs every now and then.

My B/H mix is here:
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17155
It has plenty of good (read expensive :roll: ) things like astaxanthin, spirulana, cyclop-eeze etc so I figure it should be good as the staple.

Thanks to Norto :cheers he suggested the PP worked for him above, I had read that fry can't handle PP so wasn't game to try it until he posted, so far it seems to be working.

MFG

Fri Nov 07, 2008, 01:30 AM

Keep up the good work DIY.

i tried breeding and also lost lot of batches. i hope to try again sometime soon..

Cheer!
Scott

DIY

Fri Nov 07, 2008, 08:03 AM

Friday 07/11 - 34 days old. 6:30pm update:

None dead in the last 24 hours :wave2

Not even any dark ones so the PP has done it's trick I believe. It's a bit of a kill or cure treatment with the 8 dying overnight after the treatment but then apart from one the next evening they have come good!

For the ones I seperated, I upped the temp and added plenty of salt to see if that helps the dark ones recover, I'll do an update on them later but so far they seem to be surviving just not as well as the ones treated with PP.

Fri Nov 07, 2008, 10:30 AM

:wave2 :blob :wave2 :blob2 :wave2

Hollowman

Fri Nov 07, 2008, 06:23 PM

I would think you have knocked out the flukes with your PP treatment. I would just monitor and carry on as you have been for now. If you start to get a die off again, maybe do it again. Personally, I think that you have passed the danger zone by now.

Fingers crossed :wink:

H

Merrilyn

Sun Nov 09, 2008, 09:57 AM

Have you got a UV on the grow out tank ?

I always suffered from the dreaded 4 to 6 week syndrome till I put a UV on every grow out tank. It seemed to help.

I've got a spare you can borrow if you don't have one.

Shoot me a PM if you need it.

DIY

Sun Nov 09, 2008, 12:58 PM

Thanks Merrilyn for the generous offer, actually I have one on there already - you just reminded me to turn it back on :banghead I turned it off when I started treating. It's only a basic one built into the canister filter though and it didn't help but I also doubt it's strong enough to kill parasites, It's probably enough to keep bacterial issues at bay though.

I do have a big 36watter on my main tank - I could hook that one up :shock:

DIY

Sun Nov 09, 2008, 01:32 PM

Sunday 09/11 - 36 days old.

I swear they have grown quicker again since treating, thier appetite is back to being hungry constantly. When I do a waterchange there will be a few trying to nibble my hand.. it makes my partner squeal & giggle when it happens to her :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: too funny and good entertainment :wink:

I culled 9 today :oops: , It's not a part of the breeding process I like but I know it needs to be done. A lot of the culls had bottom fins that hadn't developed properly.

I also had 2 dead in the seperated group, as well as a cull so there's now 7 left in the second group. I wanted to see what else would work other than PP, so far I have tried prazi, heat & salt and then Sterazin. none of those have really helped so now I'm trying cupramine which is obviously a bit more risky. I know this might seem a bit cruel, but I see it as a good opportunity to learn what else might work if I have this situation again.

All up, since they were 4 days old, I have lost 27 and culled 10. That's a total of 37 :cry: The majority of the losses were just recently of course around the 4 week period.

Thankfully I still have plenty left as you can see in the photo. I'm obviously terrible at guessing how many, Not long after freeswimming I posted that I thought I had around 50-60 and now with 37 down, and another 7 removed... I think I have around... 50 left :roll: I must have had closer to 100 originally.

Sun Nov 09, 2008, 07:31 PM

Great job. They are so cute

Merrilyn

Mon Nov 10, 2008, 03:40 AM

As far as I can make out, you've still got around 75 left, so a highly successful spawn indeed.

Well done DIY you've done a great job :P

ILLUSN

Mon Nov 10, 2008, 05:20 AM

I have tried prazi, heat & salt and then Sterazin.

So not suprised none of them worked LOL.

still mate EXCELLENT job they look fantastic!.

DIY

Wed Nov 12, 2008, 08:56 AM

Thanks guys, appreciate the comments and support :wink:

Wednesday 12/11 - 39 days old.

I had a few looking dark again, and the appetite seemed a bit down so a did another PP treatment last night, this time I left it just 1.5 hours before neutralising instead of 2.5. No losses after the treatment although I still have a few dark ones so it may not have been as effective as the first time. I'm learning as I go.. :book :roll: :lol: While I did the treatment I also put the remaining 4 from the seperated group back in with them as I had lost another 3 from that group and the treatments I was trying on them wasn't working. (Yes I know ILLUSN :lol: )

Apart from a few dark ones they are still going well and back to one big group :thumb

I also have added a photo of what's going on back in the other tank after putting a different pair in there.. :wink:

DIY

Sat Nov 15, 2008, 11:14 AM

Saturday 15/11 - 42 days / six weeks old!

I lost 3, and culled another 4 since my last post putting the total culled or lost at 44 now :shock:

Quite a few are breathing a bit heavy, but I don't want to just dump PP in there all the time so I'm waiting it out for a while and continuing to do 80-90% waterchange every day... The novelty has worn off a bit and the w/c's are a bit more of a chore :roll: but I'm detemined to keep this batch, after all it's taken me 4 years to get to this point! :lol: :lol:

I figure that because I'm removing the filters when I do a PP treatment, I'm going to be putting parasites/ parasite eggs back into the tank when I put the filters back in. The only way to avoid this and have a hope of eradicating rather than just controlling flukes etc, is to have some cleanly cycled sponge filters that I can put in after a treatment. I've purchased some extra sponge filters and have started cycling them in a container but that will take about 4 weeks.. so I need to continue to control them for now.

Aside from the heavy breathing and a few being a bit dark, they are still growing well and look good. I have mostly 9 bar discus, a few 14 bar and 4 or 5 that don't have bars at all and look like they might even be blue diamonds.. who knows what is in the background of the parents :ug

Rowland

Wed Nov 19, 2008, 06:04 AM

This thread continues to inspire me beyond belief! Keep up the awesome work. Your journal is really something so many folk will learn from in future.

ozarowana

Thu Nov 20, 2008, 05:47 AM

Looking good. Make sure you give all the sides of the tank a good wipe too, it's amazing how much and how fast gunk builds up.

Try cleaning your breeders with PP before they lay and you should have alot less problems with the fry.

DIY

Sat Nov 22, 2008, 10:20 AM

This thread continues to inspire me beyond belief! Keep up the awesome work. Your journal is really something so many folk will learn from in future.

Wow, thanks Rowland.. on that note I better do an update!! :oops:

Looking good. Make sure you give all the sides of the tank a good wipe too, it's amazing how much and how fast gunk builds up.

Try cleaning your breeders with PP before they lay and you should have alot less problems with the fry.

Thanks ozorowana, I gave them a PP dip but I dont think it was enough. plus I didn't sterilise the 4 foot tank I transferred them to as I did it in a hurry... alway's learning :wink:

DIY

Sat Nov 22, 2008, 10:35 AM

Saturday 22/11 - 49 days / seven weeks old!

I lost 2, and culled another 9 since my last post putting the total culled or lost at 55 now :roll:

I perfromed another PP treatment a few days ago after I lost 2 and noticed more going dark, since the PP they have lightened right up and the appetite has increased again. Once the sponge filters I'm cycling are ready I'll have a go at eradicating the parasites properly but for now I'm just controlling them while their immune systems are developing.

Aside from that, there's not a lot to report. Everything seems to be going as expected, the pH is dropping by almost a full pH unit now over 24 hours even with me doing a 95% waterchange every day. I'm preparing a 4x18x18 tank to transfer them to, hopefullly I'll have it ready and transfer them tomorrow.

The few that don't have any bars are starting to take on a blue colour, so I'm convinced they are blue diamonds. One of the parents must have blue diamond in thier background.

I've added a photo of the tank in the middle of a waterchange.. just to show how much I'm changing every day!!

DIY

Sat Nov 22, 2008, 10:38 AM

Some more 7 week photos :wink: plus a photo of the new pair in the breeding tank.....

The new pair are going well with their fry, they are a week old now and looking good, I reckon there's even more in the new batch, must be over 100.. more waterchanges coming up :shock: :roll:

Hollowman

Sun Nov 23, 2008, 12:30 AM

Man! you are doing a great job DIY, love the photos, keep it up mate.

iro11a

Sun Nov 23, 2008, 04:26 AM

Great job your so lucky to get them to spawn again so soon,awesome photos as well

DIY

Sun Nov 23, 2008, 06:17 AM

Man! you are doing a great job DIY, love the photos, keep it up mate.
Thanks H :wink:

Great job your so lucky to get them to spawn again so soon,awesome photos as well
Thanks iro11a, I put the original pair back into the community tank, it's actually a a different pair that have spawned... lucky to spawn yes :thumb, lucky it's so soon.. I'm not so sure :oops:, daily waterchanges becomes tiring every day after work, especially the bad days :lol: I've also got to figure out what to do over the christmas - new year period as I'll be going interstate to visit family, and without large daily waterchanges the water will quickly deteriorate and become toxic :scratch

Rowland

Sun Nov 23, 2008, 06:26 PM

Here's hoping you keep us posted on the new batch just as often. Greta work!!!

DIY

Mon Nov 24, 2008, 12:09 PM

Here's hoping you keep us posted on the new batch just as often. Greta work!!!

Nah, I think one huge breeding thread from me is enough :roll: I'd like to see others do something similar, I don't want to fill up the server with just my photo's :lol:

Plus with all the waterchanges I'm up for.. I'll have less time to take photo's and post.. at least that's my excuse :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DIY

Mon Nov 24, 2008, 12:23 PM

Monday 24/11 - 51 days old

I transferred them all to a larger tank (4x18x18) yesterday. I lost one weak one afterwards probably from the stress and slight difference in water conditions putting the total culled or lost at 56 now.

I counted them as I transferred them and I have 67 left... means I had 123 in the batch :shock:

The new tank is actually in a two tier rack which I finally finished building.. I originally did a drawing of the racks back in 2006, and promised my partner it would be suitable to have in the house.. not the usual raw pine racks that look like they belong in a warehouse. She's happy with it so it's all good :lol:

At least I have some room now to grow them out as well as the house the next batch coming :roll:

Rowland

Mon Nov 24, 2008, 12:36 PM

Stunning!
What percentage of the fry are snakeskin and what percentage 9 bar?

DIY

Mon Nov 24, 2008, 12:45 PM

I didn't count that, but at a rough guess I'd say only about 15-20 are snakeskin so maybe 20-25%

pink66

Mon Nov 24, 2008, 10:37 PM

the cabinet looks very nice with fishies in it.. at least you now have room for the new batch as they grow.

They are sooooo cute.. did the nail polish markings stay on the ones I've picked out :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wave1

iro11a

Tue Nov 25, 2008, 01:01 AM

Hey quick question doing such water changes where do you get that much water from have you got a rainwater tank collecting water or you got a huge barrell with tap water and just filter it and siphon the water out and then into your tank? i would never really do waterchages over 65%

Tue Nov 25, 2008, 02:33 AM

iro11a, have a look here for DIY's water changing system
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139808&highlight=#139808

impressive, or what

iro11a

Tue Nov 25, 2008, 06:29 AM

Damn that would have been hard to set up you set it up yourself and professional set it up for you ?i just brought my first house so im going to get some bigger drums but i dont think i will set up anything like this maybe just a big old garbage bin and just age for 24 hours with a heater and filter and just add a small tap at the bottom to fill up buckets? is that what most you guys do or something more hi tec?

DIY

Tue Nov 25, 2008, 08:04 AM

Thanks TW for putting the link up :thumb

Hey quick question doing such water changes where do you get that much water from have you got a rainwater tank collecting water or you got a huge barrell with tap water and just filter it and siphon the water out and then into your tank? i would never really do waterchages over 65%
Water is an issue, the water problem in melbourne (and I know it's a problem in other cities as well) means I only change as much as I believe I need to. I'd love to change less but the water deteriorates very quickly with 67 very active"food to poo converters". The new 155 target in Melbourne is something else to worry about. At this stage I'll either fail the target or have to stop breeding :ug

*edit*... I meant stop breeding discus :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Damn that would have been hard to set up you set it up yourself and professional set it up for you ?
Not wanting to boast.. but my forum name gives you the answer :wink: and not so much hard, just time consuming :roll:

A simple way to do it is to have a submersible pump in the bottom of your barrel, with a heater and airstone. Have some garden hose you can run to the tank as needed connected to the submersible pump to save carrying buckets.

rwel4809

Tue Nov 25, 2008, 11:13 AM

A simple way to do it is to have a submersible pump in the bottom of your barrel, with a heater and airstone. Have some garden hose you can run to the tank as needed connected to the submersible pump to save carrying buckets.

that's exactly what I do, I do a water change every other day so that the water can age properly between changes, the fish really appreciate it...

R

iro11a

Wed Nov 26, 2008, 05:12 AM

Mickey_owen7

Fri Nov 28, 2008, 02:50 AM

Soz, guys but what exactly is PP??? It seems to be a type of medicine.

Thanks Michael

DIY

Fri Nov 28, 2008, 08:37 AM

There's a sticky on PP (Potasium Permanganate) in the Illness & Medications section, link is below for it anyway.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14585

DIY

Fri Nov 28, 2008, 09:08 PM

Thanks where do u get sub pumps?and does it have a value to be able to hook it up to a garden hose?i'm moving into my first home soon and wanna do it right the first time.bunnings should have large bins with a pump right?

Jono

Pretty much any submersible pump including fountain pumps will work as long as it has enough power, go for say 2000l/h or bigger. If you want to be sure look for the "head" rating, this is a measure of how hard the pump can push water (referred to as how high - head height) and is the important rating for getting it out of the barrell pushing it through the hose and up into your tank, the higher the head rating the better - I'd go for 1.8m head or more. the larger the head rating the longer you can have the hose and/or the faster it will fill the tank. Too small a head rating and it could take a very long time to fill the tank or it might not have enough "push" to work at all.

LFS stock pumps, bunnings stock them, or better yet the sponsors of this forum will stock them :wink:

iro11a

Fri Nov 28, 2008, 11:27 PM

Cheers DIY i went to bunnings and checked it out going t get a pump for about 150 and a huge garage bin for about 100.

Now back to your thread hows things coming along with the babies any updates pics?how many you got left?

Jono

DIY

Fri Nov 28, 2008, 11:49 PM

I'll post an update either later today or early tomorrow, I'm waiting for the lights to come on so I can take some pictures :wink:

Quick summary is no more losses and going great :thumb

DIY

Sat Nov 29, 2008, 09:01 AM

Saturday 29/11 - 56 days / eight weeks old

No more losses since my last update, and no dark ones either :wave2 I think (hope) they are past the danger period now.

Everything is going well, they are constantly hungry and will eat until their bellies are ready to burst... and then eat some more :lol:

There's an increasing size difference now, some haven't grown much in the last few weeks, and others are growing really fast. One in particular stands out like a weightlifter in a jockey club :shock: :lol:

jimmyg

Sun Nov 30, 2008, 09:23 AM

How much Meth Blue do you use in your tank when they lay the eggs, I have them in a large 2ft tank.

Does it fade out the Meth Blue or do you have to do a big water change, I have the stuff but never used it.

Thanks
Jimmy

DIY

Sun Nov 30, 2008, 10:29 AM

I dosed roughly 1/2 the rate on the bottle - bottle doasge is 5ml per 20l and I dosed about 5ml per 40L.

It doesn't fade, it took quite a few large changes to clear it out...

Hollowman

Sun Nov 30, 2008, 11:29 AM

Jimmy, don't forget that MB will kill your filter media, so beware.

jimmyg

Sun Nov 30, 2008, 11:53 AM

Thanks fellas, I use 2 Sponge filters on my Breeding Tanks and on the baies I use a 405 Fluvval.

Love this iste there is so much information and every adds input, it's like a big family.

Thanks
Jimmy

DIY

Thu Dec 04, 2008, 01:07 PM

Thursday 04/12 - 2 months old today!

I've culled 2 more since my last post, leaving 65 in total. They are eating like crazy, I have no idea where they put it all - aside from that nothing to report as everything is going well with this batch. (my new batch isn't going so well though :roll: )

I'll let the pictures do the rest of the talking :thumb

jimmyg

Thu Dec 04, 2008, 11:00 PM

Can I ask why DIY culled 2 more since my last post, leaving 65 in total.

Is that because they are runts, too small.

I don't know what to do with my runts, I have 2 smaller ones that all the others babies were attacking so I moved it in with my Albino Longfin Bristle noses.

Will they grow or are they stunted for life.

i will take a pic of my babies and post it.

Thanks
Jimmy

Hollowman

Thu Dec 04, 2008, 11:21 PM

jimmyg

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 01:56 AM

Sweet, thanks for answering me I should do the same to the 2 I have all my Babies are around50 cents pieces and bigger except for 2 athat are around 5c piece.

Thanks for the info I would of wasted my time trying to get these up to size

Jimmy

DIY

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 02:15 AM

Jimmy, you have to remember that in nature, only the very best or healthiest survive. Because we can allow fish that we breed to live, we could end up with lot and lots of fish that will not increase the strength of any gene pool. Ok, they might live a happy life, but to progress the hobby or progress a strain we need to act as "mother nature" and rid the young shoal of the fish that just are not the strongest. They might be small, they might be stunted, mis-shaped, ill or deformed. We as keepers/breeders must strive for perfection, whatever that is??
I would imagine that DIY would have culled these fish beacuse of one of those reasons. Culling MUST be humane, so if you need advice on this, then just ask.
hth

Steve (Hollowman)

Spot on and well said :thumb

One had strange growth, possibly a tumor or something growing on his side and it was stopping him from being able to move his pec fin, the other was the smallest one in the tank and seemed to be struggling, looking dark, hanging back at food time etc. He may have been OK especially if i gave him his own tank, but I think Hollowman explained it well above, I only want to pass onto others strong healthy discus, not weak "sickly" discus :wink:

After using it, I can recommend a few drops if clove oil in a half cup of water - they pass very peacefully. Not the part of breeding I enjoy, but sometimes it needs to be done :oops:

jimmyg

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 09:51 AM

Can I ask a question what should your Ammonia be in your breeding Tank, I did mine today and it is 1.5 that is high isn't it.

How is the best way of lowering it.

Thanks
Jimmy

DIY

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 10:41 AM

That's very high, ammonia along with nitrite should be 0

waterchanges will help remove ammonia, you can also add prime to detoxify it, but you need to work out why it's there in the first place - was the tank cycled properly?

jimmyg

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 11:08 AM

I do weekly water changes but found lots of crap and food behind a log I have in there.

Yeah my Tank was cycled, I had Tetras in it for 1 month and then I had my last babies there and moved the parents to this tank about 1 month ago and they have babies atm around 5cm size.

Nitrate is 0

Ph is 6.2, I found bits of white jelly stuff ion the bottom of the filter.

Thanks
Jimmy

Hollowman

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 06:14 PM

Jimmy, if you are breeding, you should be doing at least daily water changes on your fry. Weekly changes just wont cut it. Just think of the amount of food you have to feed, all the waste the fish are producing, no wonder you have ammonia. More water changes needed bud.
:)

H

jimmyg

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the Info

DIY

Fri Dec 05, 2008, 10:23 PM

Yep, after seeing how quickly water deteriorates with lots of growing fry I can appreciate why the asian breeders do 100% waterchanges 3 times a day. :roll:
If you up your w/c's you will probably see the growth rate increase in your fry as well :thumb

carolerex

Sat Dec 06, 2008, 12:30 AM

Wow !!! I have just read your post DIY from start to finish and as a beginer breeder I cant thank you enough for how much I have learned. How generous of you to share your triumphs and your disasters so that we all can learn. Your photo's are awesome.

DIY

Sat Dec 06, 2008, 08:24 AM

Saturday 06/12 - 63 days / nine weeks old

Still going well, they are eating far more food than I expected - it's amazing how much food they can eat :shock:

iro11a

Sun Dec 07, 2008, 12:25 AM

DIY

Sun Dec 14, 2008, 09:59 AM

damn going well how many babies you got left now?i like the fact alot of them are all mixed like a few blue diamond looking ones thats awesome,whoever buys them is going to get a great deal :D

When you going to be selling some im guessing you will want to keep a few of the best ones 8-)

Around 60 left, and yeah I'll keep a few for myself :D , although not that many, maybe 3 or 4.

I've been in two minds about when to start selling them, if I sold some before christmas it'd help with reducing the waste for a few days over christmas with no waterchanges while I'm away, but if I wait till after christmas they will have more time to grow and colour up before heading to a new home...

DIY

Sun Dec 14, 2008, 10:05 AM

Sunday 14/12 - ten weeks old

Still going well, still eating everything in sight and still growing :lol:

Colours are slowly coming through, I guess it will take a while to colour up properly.

The second photo is my brother holding a small piece of beefheart to see if they would eat it out of his hand... and they were more than happy to :lol:

Hollowman

Sun Dec 14, 2008, 10:55 AM

There are a few colouring up nicely DIY. Which type are you going to keep for yourself?

Mickey_owen7

Sat Dec 20, 2008, 08:53 PM

Hi DIY and crew!

Just asking on how you hatch your BBS? I always get so many cysts when i collect the BBS, even with them all around a light. I don't want to feed them the cysts oz it blokes up their gut.

I've tried decapsulating them with bleach and stuff but they dont hatch.

Thanks

Old Dave

Fri Dec 26, 2008, 10:51 AM

Saturday 15/11 - 42 days / six weeks old!

... and continuing to do 80-90% waterchange every day... !

I figure that because I'm removing the filters when I do a PP treatment, I'm going to be putting parasites/ parasite eggs back into the tank when I put the filters back in. The only way to avoid this and have a hope of eradicating rather than just controlling flukes etc, is to have some cleanly cycled sponge filters that I can put in after a treatment. I've purchased some extra sponge filters and have started cycling them in a container but that will take about 4 weeks.. so I need to continue to control them for now.

DIY,
Great thread, really absorbing details.

So pardon my noobness, but how essential is the sponge filter if you are removing the sediment & changing 90% of the water daily?

Would a fluid bed filter be more helpful in keeping down parasites?
(Smashing them to bits in a swirl of sand??)

Thanks All,

Old Dave