Cycling and Planting

[spaceman1979]

Wow. I joined this focum yesterday and I'm just amazed with how much information is available. Thanks one and all for contributing. It certainly helps noobs to discus keeping.

I've been reading about cycling. From what I understand, you fill the tank, get the filter running and chuck a few prawns in it to start the ammonia going up. Once the ammonia is up the biological goodies turn the ammonia into nitrites. Once the nitrites are up more bacteria grow and eat the nitrites and turn them into nitrates.

Basically the tank is cycled then ammonia = 0, nitrites = 0 and nitrates are through the roof. Hope I have understood that.

I have at home some of the Cycle product. Does this assist in the quick establishment of the bacteria, or is it best not to add this concentrate and just let it occur naturally.

Additionally, I'll be using a lot of plants in the tank. When is it ok to start planting it all up and running some CO2 through it? Can I do this while the tank is cycling or should I wait until it's all done and dusted?

Thanks

[BigDaddyAdo]

Using Cycle wont hurt. Dont really know how much those type of products help but they wont do anything bad.

Personally i would wait until its cycled before i added plants as the ammonia can have negative effects on plants.


Ado

[Hollowman]

Space, not sure if you have said already, but what size discus are you thinking of getting?

Plus, just a note, when cycled, your ammonia level should be zero, nitrItes zero, but nitrAtes will not be through the roof. You should get a trace of nitrAtes, but not much.

H

[spaceman1979]

I'm yet to decide about the size of the discus that I'll put into my tank.

One half of me says that I should get small ones (maybe 3-4 cm) so that I can watch them grow up. But the other side says get the 6-7 cm size so that they don't make as much mess etc.

I'll be using glass shrimp so they will clean up most of the waste thankfully, but I'm stil conscious that I don't want to have a lot of waste food on the substrate.

[Hollowman]

ok, These are still very small fish and are still what would be termed as juvies (juvenile)
Now to get these fish to grow to their full potential, you will need to maintain a very regular water change regime, also to get them to grow well, feeding must be heavy, this means that there will be a lot of waste produced and this needs to be cleaned out = water changes (W/C)

People will tell you that you can grow fish out in a planted tank.......this is true, but the general concensus is that to grow out fish, it is far better done in a bare bottomed (BB) tank. A BB tank allows you to remove all the waste easily, you can also easily wipe down the insides of the glass and bottom to remove residual bacterial build up, that even though you cannot see it, will be there. All you need is a filter of some kind, ( I use an external cannister + air driven sponges) a heater and clean water.

In a planted tank with a gravel substrate all the uneaten food gets trapped between the stones, you might get problems with plants not growing because of the constant cleaning and unheaval of roots and you cannot keep the water quality as high as that of a BB tank. (others may despute this)

Pro's of BB is that it is easy to clean, fish grow well.
Con's of a BB, it can look a bit stark
Middle ground with a BB is to have a 1/2" of sand on the bottom.

Just something to consider

H :)

[DIY]

ok, These are still very small fish and are still what would be termed as juvies (juvenile)
Now to get these fish to grow to their full potential, you will need to maintain a very regular water change regime, also to get them to grow well, feeding must be heavy, this means that there will be a lot of waste produced and this needs to be cleaned out = water changes (W/C)

People will tell you that you can grow fish out in a planted tank.......this is true, but the general concensus is that to grow out fish, it is far better done in a bare bottomed (BB) tank. A BB tank allows you to remove all the waste easily, you can also easily wipe down the insides of the glass and bottom to remove residual bacterial build up, that even though you cannot see it, will be there. All you need is a filter of some kind, ( I use an external cannister + air driven sponges) a heater and clean water.

In a planted tank with a gravel substrate all the uneaten food gets trapped between the stones, you might get problems with plants not growing because of the constant cleaning and unheaval of roots and you cannot keep the water quality as high as that of a BB tank. (others may despute this)

Pro's of BB is that it is easy to clean, fish grow well.
Con's of a BB, it can look a bit stark
Middle ground with a BB is to have a 1/2" of sand on the bottom.

Just something to consider

H :)

Excellent advice :thumb and I don't think anyone can dispute water quality in a planted tank just cannot be maintained as high as water in a bb tank.

Spaceman1979 - as you are a confessed noob :lol: I suggest you consider running bare bottom initially while you get used to keeping discus water - this is especially if you decide you want to buy juvi's and grow them out. Once they are getting to adult size you can change to a planted tank.

Having run my planted co2 display tank with discus for a few years, I know its possible to grow out in a planted tank but Hollowman has explained the difficulties in doing this well. I can honestly say I haven't had much success with juvi's under 2" (in my planted tank) when I tried.

I now have a "grow out" bb tank where I heavily feed and perfom large frequent waterchanges for any young discus I purchase. Once they get big enough (and fat enough :lol: ) then they go into my display tank.

[DIY]

I forgot to add - I haven't tried myself, but I believe discus see glass shrimp as a nice snack :shock:

[spaceman1979]

thanks for the advice.

so it looks like if i want a planted tank then I have to buy bigger discus. something else to consider during the cycling phase of the tank.

re waste in the tank. if you had a lot of bottom feeders and plants this would eliminate a proportion of the waste though right?

[DIY]

Bottom feeders will help clean up uneaten food trapped amongst the plants and convert the uneaten food into waste... so no bottom feeders won't actually reduce waste - in fact they add to the bio-load.

Waste will breakdown into nitrate eventually and the Plants will help reduce nitrate.. but no plants will not directly reduce any waste and in fact will help trap waste and uneaten food amongst thier roots.

Heavy and careful gravel vac-ing at each waterchange will help get rid of waste in the tank, and frequent waterchanges will always help.

At the end of the day as long as you realise plants and discus have opposing requirements to flourish you will do OK. Clean pristine soft water will enable discus to flourish but plants will struggle as they have no "food", lots of waste breaking down providing nutrients and fertilisation chemicals will "feed" your plants enabling them to flourish but your discus will struggle and get sick.

To have both doing well - IMO you need to perfom constant large waterchanges with good gravel vac-ing to eliminate as much organic waste as possible and and then supply the specific ferts and nutrients the plants need at a minimum level. This keeps your nitrates and organic waste low allowing your discus to do well while still allowing your plants to do OK.

This is why planted discus tanks are generally considered "advanced" aquarium keeping... but a well managed and carefully balanced planted discus tank always looks outstanding IMO :wink:

I'm not saying you shouldn'go for a planted discus tank.. but it's important you know the pro's and con's before you do, and getting some experience with discus in a bb tank will make things a bit easier at first... :wink:

Medicating can also be a problem in a planted tank, so I suggest you have a small hospital tank ready when you go planted.. crossed fingers you may never need it but if you do at least it's there.

And don't get me started on one of the problems you will come across with a planted discus tank.... ALGAE :banghead :banghead

[senol]

As someoen who tried having a planted tank with juviniles i wanna say what i think. Just dont even bother tyring. I end up taking all the gravel and plants out. It is not that I am pro or something and giving advice, I am just telling my own experience. Gravel keeps just too much of a dirt no matter how hard you try to clean, now I have a barebottom, and instead of having gravel etc, to decorate, i have some driftwood which kinda helps the seen.

[Hollowman]

As someoen who tried having a planted tank with juviniles i wanna say what i think. Just dont even bother tyring. I end up taking all the gravel and plants out. It is not that I am pro or something and giving advice, I am just telling my own experience. Gravel keeps just too much of a dirt no matter how hard you try to clean, now I have a barebottom, and instead of having gravel etc, to decorate, i have some driftwood which kinda helps the seen.

Good call :)

[moneymike]

I couldn't keep up with the planted discus tank either. As a result, 8 of my 10 Discus died and the plants were less than stellar. Out of the two survivors, one has stunted growth.

I got smart and got myself a BB "grow out" tank like DIY mentioned. Hopefully this will work out. If you can afford it, do it. This will save you a lot of stress.

[TW]

Agree with earlier comments. IMO Adult discus in a planted tank can work out fine. Juveniles are best for bare bottom.


Additionally, I'll be using a lot of plants in the tank. When is it ok to start planting it all up and running some CO2 through it? Can I do this while the tank is cycling or should I wait until it's all done and dusted? Plants can be planted at the get go, no harm will come to them during cycling. It is beneficial to have them there. It's more a question of if your discus are juvenile, give the plants (& gravel) a miss altogether.

[Nitecongt]

On the defence of a planted tank.

in my experiance the tank just needs to be well established with plants before adding juvies.
I've got a really small golden in with two large ones and it does fine in my heavily planted tank.
I've also got a small swarm of Khuli loach who do a great job of eating left overs, which helps to keep the excess waste to a minimum, spiney eels are also a good bootom feeder/cleaner. but you will still need to gravel vac reg.

I would start planting now, i dont rekon it would make too much of a differance.

and as they all say water changes are the go!

good luck!

[TW]

I don't think juvies should be added to a planted tank - only adults. Just my opinion, but also based on how it worked out for me, having juvies in my well maintained planted tank.

I have a team of cories as clean up gang & water changes & gravel vacs were regular - but still those juvies turned into stunted adults. I wouldn't do it again. I'd grow them up in bare bottom & transfer them to the display planted tank when they are grown.

If you are going for adults, then plant the tank up from the get go.

[Willy]

Just getting ready to start my first discus tank. Glad I came across this thread. I'm reading between the lines here. I take it that juvenile discus need to be fed frequently so that they will grow quickly. Is this for their health, (that is, to ensure they will reach their full size potential) and not just impatience for them to get large?

I like the idea of starting with a BB. One less variable to worry about for a beginner. When I do convert to a planted tank, I have read that sand instead of gravel allows waste to be more easily vacuumed out, as it sits on top of the sand surface instead of mixing in with the gravel. I was thinking of using a bottom layer of sand mixed with laterite, then a top layer of just sand for appearance. Is this a good idea?

[Willy]

One more question. I was going to order "2-3 inch" discus. Are these still considered juveniles? I suppose the above recommendations for a BB would still apply.

[ILLUSN]

anything smaller than 4 or 5 inches is a juvi