discus gone dark

[lpiasente]

I have just done a large water change 40% and now my blue diamond discus has gone really dark and acting very strange. He is bobing up and down with his head pointing down and the back end of his tail is going flat out.He has done the bobbing up and down thing once before and I added epsom salts and that helped but no luck today and he didn't turn dark before.

[lpiasente]

I have just fed them and he came out and had a feed. When I cleaned the tank this morning I moved the driftwod and got all the rubbish out from under it.Ewwwwwww it was filthy. Maybe I disturbed something and it upset his belly. Maybe I just worry too much :oops:

[swingn]

Similar problem that I experienced last week. My discus went dark & was acting very weird & timid.

After I did a quick water change it improved significantly. I also added some salt, cycle & Seachem Discis Trace & it did the trick.

My water was a little out of wack, so I've been doing 20%-30% WC's every few days & will continue to do so for the next week. All is coming good on my end :D

Hope everything goes well for you from now on :)

[lpiasente]

He seems very distressed and I just saw him do a white poo. Short 2 poos. I did add big L earlier tonight, probably not the right thing to add but I was going to worm them anyway. :(

[Merrilyn]

Has he settled down now? Sometimes Big L will stress a fish, in which case, it's best to do another waterchange to dilute the wormer.

The white poo is nothing to worry about. It's normal after treating with Big L. Just means it's doing it's job.

[lpiasente]

He is still going nuts. But he is still eating.

[lpiasente]

I had a good look at him today and he has a cloudy membrane covering his eye and quite a bit of fin damage. I am wondering now if there is some kind of fungal infection going on in the tank as some of the others have the fin damage as well, I thought it was from them fighting. All the discus are hiding there are probably only 4 that are out and about at different times. Even the clown loaches are in hiding and they are always swimming around like mad.Clowns didn't come out to feed but all the discus did. Not sure what to do here as I have put the big L in already.

[lpiasente]

Now they have developed a fungal infection on the tips of their fins and I was a bit worried about putting fungus aid in with big L. I did a 70% water change and added fungus aid... I hope this was the right thing to do.

[lpiasente]

Well the joys of fish keeping have all turned to crap. I am sitting here writing this in tears as I watch my fish dying and my bautiful tank falling to bits. I didn't know what to do when I got home from work yesterday as the fish all looked so sick so I rang the discus man and explained what was happening and he seemed to think it was a bacterial infection. I went to the vet and got some anitbiotics and added them as was said. (I didn't end up putting in the fungus cure because I thought that it was something worse too). I just pulled my first dead clown loach out and I have had all my clownies for over a year.The others are all buggered too. The fighers seem ok b but the discus all look crap. Most of them came out for breakfast so I supose that is something. I am sure 3 of them are going to die. Cories and sae aren'tlooking good either. I have heard of this happening before ut just did't expect to feel like this and to feel so responsible. After all I took them home from the fish shop to give them a better life.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Who is this "discus man" you speak of?


Ado

[Andrew Soh]

Is your tank with undergravel? Sometimes, when you disturb the gravel or objects in a tank without fully removing all the disturbed debris.....these flying around debris with micro-organisms will attach themselves to the fishes and irrtate them.....could be bacteria too.

Go change 100% water-change (40% is too much if you do not want to disturb the setup and too little to remove all debris), add salt 100gm to 100 litres of water. Remove the plants...clean well.

If possible...stop all other treatments for a day and on the second day, do a 100% water change again and do a PP treatment.

...then let us know how things are turning. Salt to be added as of now.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

Thanks for your reply. I am sure it was when I did the big water change that my problem was caused. I moved all the rocks and the driftwood to give it a good clean and it was later that night my first discus started behaving strange. I haven't had discus long enough to be able to diagnose early disease. I don't have a underground filter it is an external canister. I will do what you suggested and keep all my fingers crossed. No dead discus yet, another clown loach down but they all still look bad and wouldn't eat tonight. :cry: :cry: .

[Andrew Soh]

Good! If there is no undergravel....then wash the canister thoroughly....100% but need not to sterilise it....just wash thoroughly and at the same time make 100% water-change...and follow with salt and all that I suggested and I am sure everything will settle down in time.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

Thank you

[lpiasente]

Who is this "discus man" you speak of?


Ado
He is a lovely man that sells discus in Melbourne, it is his specialty. He is who I buy my discus from.

[lpiasente]

2 dead discus now ,their fins almost rotted off. The fish are no longer dark they have lost colour. My blue diamond is now pale grey as are the 2 turqouise. The 2 turks were so healthy 2 days ago. It's horrible

[Andrew Soh]

Sorry to hear that...

Sorry cannot be of further help as I never see discus die so fast and so sudden ...and with symptom like yours. :cry:

Take care,
Andrew

[lpiasente]

More dead this morning. the cories are like they are bleeding under the skin. I will keep one of the dead fish to see if the vet is able to identify what is wrong.

[lpiasente]

How do I keep the dead fish over the weekend to take it to the vet?

[Andrew Soh]

Generally those bacteria and parasites that might have caused infection in a living fish are aerobes.....needing oxygen to live.

When it dies, this aerobic organisms can only live for a maximum of one hour at most till the oxygen in the tissue depleted. So generally, within half hour, you have to reach the lab...for the pathologist to do the investigation within the next half hour.

Freezing it or chilling it may not help......unless you want to do histo only.....to study the presence of lesion or cellular structure to identify a virus......that you can keep it in solution of formalin for a much longer period.....I think.. :wink: .....but not every infection is viral and doing Histo is very expensive.....

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

Thanks andrew. It is the weekend and in a country town all the vets lock up for the weekend so it looks like I will never know what has caused this. As they are dying so quickly I doubt there will be any left by monday 2 more gone. This is so awful for them I can see their suffering.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Are you sure that you havent introduced a toxin into the tank?

Have you been doing water changes snce this all started? How many?


Ado

[Andrew Soh]

Yes, it is very sad.......

But there are things you can do over the weekend to try savage the situation.

Take out whatever is in the tank...be it filter pipes or wood or even a box....leaving only the aeration.....

Make a thorough wash remembering to siphon out all the water and when you refill 100 percent of the water, remember to add antichlorine.

Add salt at 2oogm per 100 litres of water and put in acriflavine (get from LFS.

That should help cool down things.

Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

I had a spare 4x2x2 that I bought to put my beautiful discus in. I filled it half way and added the fish in it bb with heater and 2 airstones. I have stripped the other tank down cleaning all filter parts with treated water, threw out all the gravel cleaned all plants and have put it back together bb in anticipation for maybe something to pull through. I havent had a death for about 3 hours so that is something but hve lost about 70%of occupants. they are mucking around with the water here so my lps tell me today but meant to be adding chloramine. I use prime and this should remove it.. I did notice that the ph out of the tap is higher than usual usually 7 but 7.8 currently but i do adjust the ph before adding it to the tank. The only thing not affected by whatever this is is my female bettas.

[lpiasente]

Sorry I forgot to add they are in a salted tank. Still no more deaths and I would say that things have improved slightly. The only acriflavine I could get was a multifix broad spectrum meds 0.400mg/ml malachite green 4.00mg/ml methylene blue 2.00mg/ml acriflavine. I will wait to hear if I can add this to the tank. Tomorrow should I put them back into my 3 ft with just clean water? Thanks I really appreciate all the help
Leanne


:wave :angel

[Andrew Soh]

You can tranfer but minimum injury....use a soft net and scoop one by one.

I would insist on using only acriflavine....no other medication or chemicals as I believe the use is a preventive not a treatment. Acriflavine can prevent secondary bacteria infection. Use it with salt.

It is up to you. ....as Malachite at that dose and if already prepared in solution isn't very effective anymore......and methylene blue is alright....so think it is o.k.

MG and MB are non-bacteria acting agent.

Take care,
Andrew

[lpiasente]

well this morning all but 1 discus are dead and possibly looks as though he could make it. His colour is pretty good although still looks very unwell.
Got 2 sae left and all bristlenose are happy and healthy.I have moved them to the clean tank now. When should I do next water change? It couldn't have been a problem with the water as my babies are in another tank and doing very well plus I have 8 male fighters and 2 small community tanks and they are all well. Guess Iwillnever know what caused this.

[lpiasente]

May I ask what does the salt actually do?

[Andrew Soh]

Yes you can do water-change as and when you like.........

Salt is to prevent dehydration due to loss of salt from the wounds.

Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

Thanks again Andrew.Unfortunatly the outcome wasn't good but with your advice I know everything that was possible was done for my fish. :)

[lpiasente]

I have thrown out the gravel,nets, syphons, buckets washed all the plants 3 times so there is no gravel on the roots.Boiled all the rocks and driftwood.I will also put the driftwood and rocks outside for the next few weeks. Should I throw the driftwood and plants out?

[BigDaddyAdo]

I would not have thrown out anything including the gravel. It can all be cleaned.


Ado

[Merrilyn]

Oh Leanne, I'm so sorry. I've been offline for a couple of days, and I've just seen this.

You've had absolutely the best possible advice from our friend Andrew.

Did all this start to happen just after you added the new fish to your tank?

It seems those new babies may have brought something in with them. How are the fish your brother took going. Are they showing any signs of ill health?

[lpiasente]

No all babies are fine even the ones here. I think it was something in the tank. But in 4 days the discus went from healthy fat colorful beautiful little critters to dead. Still got one holding on. Fingers crossed

[Merrilyn]

Have you added any new fish to the tank with the sick fish, not necessarily discus, but any kind of fish or new plants?

I'm sorry I have no idea what the cause is. Wish I had some answers for you :(

[lpiasente]

I would not have thrown out anything including the gravel. It can all be cleaned.


Ado
I do worry and if I put that gravel back in and one fish stared to get sick I would end up in a right old mess thinking this was going to happen all over again. I think next tank will be a bare bottom one.

[lpiasente]

Yes I did add 2 new lots of crypts. They came from a plant tank only with no fish in it. The only other thing I have done different is started feeding the beefheart mix. I did way over feed this and there was so much of it sitting amongst the plants but I didn't realise this until I started to do the big clean. Then when I saw my blue diamond swimming around funny. I did another water change and moved all the driftwood and rocks. Maybe it was the food rotting. I do 20% water changes every 3rd day and give the gravel a good old vac everytime but wasn't cleaning in amongst the plant centres.Lost another corie today but I have seen the discus (he needs a name now)ummm Hercules having a swim around. One of my girls sophie(betta) is still pine coning but it hasn't killed her yet. She is so cute like a little doggie whenever I go near the tanks she swims over just to say hi as she isn't eating. I really think hercules might make it. I will do another water change later today. Just wondering if I should add anything to it ?

[waitaki]

Hi Leanne - sorry to hear about this catastrophe, hope Hercules (cool name) and sophie make it. I have had female betta who pine cone survive so fingers crossed.
Must have been something really nasty in the water to wipe so many fish in such a short time. Have you got a water aging tank?

[lpiasente]

Hi and thaks. I don't think it is from the water as I have 9other tanks in the house and no problems in any of them. I dot't have a water aging tank I just fill bukets and let them sit. I will organise one though as now the ph level from the tap water is 7.8 and I am having to use a ph down as my tank sits a 6.6. I don't like using the buffer so I will set up filter with peat and see if that works. Both hercules and sophie are still going. Hercules looks terrible but hopefully he will make it. Cheers Leanne

[BigDaddyAdo]

I still think it sounds like a toxin rather than disease. Hope it all goes well from here on in.


Ado

[lpiasente]

So do you think a toxin caused from the left over food? I don't use sprays or pesticides in that part of house as I also have hermit crabs. I always make sure I have nothing on my hands before they go in the tank. All jewellery is removed. All buckets and such are only used for the tanks and stored away whith no chemicals near by.

[swingn]

Just throwing it out there... But since you only just started feeding them beef heart (Regardless of the over feeding) could it have been a chemical or something in that?

[lpiasente]

I did think that but my brother is feeding it to the babies twice a day with the same batch of mix.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Not a toxin caused by the food rather a toxin introduced into the tank like a pesticide. Have you ever had the house treated for pests? Do you smoke? Do you wash your hands wih soap before placing them in the tank?


Ado

[lpiasente]

No no and no. i am very very careful like I said. I have had hermit crabs for nearly 4 years now and have to be careful what I use or spray in the house. I never even put my hand in the tank after I have had a shower incase there is someting left on there from the shampoo and conditioner.

[lpiasente]

Well Hercules didn't make it either so that's my discus collection wiped out other than the babies.I took them to my brothers house. I will set up again but not just yet.I will be using the same canister filter when I set up again should I just keep running it in an empty tank and keep changing the water or should I strip it down and replace all the filter media and cycle all over again?

[bartek]

Since you have move the fish then I would use the opportunity and replace all the media or in the least boil the media that can be boiled and replace the rest.

Drain the tank and clean it and rinse in carefully, cycle the tank and start again with a nice clean set up.

Other option is clean the filter as you would normally and leave the tank running with a some tetras in so you don;t need to cycle it again. WHite clouds a usually cheap at the lfs so you could get a bunch of these.

[swingn]

Since the issue came out of nowhere, I would start fresh.

Replace all filter matter & give everything a good clean :D

[BigDaddyAdo]

I wouldnt replace it. Rinse, Boil, Repeat and you will kill any nasties in the filter media. Its not necessary and will get very expensive if you replace everything.


Ado

[lpiasente]

Crap it's happening all over again. I am the discus owner from hell. All water tests are perfect. I age my water and all. The only thing I can think of is over feeding. I am setting up a hospital tank with air stone and heater and will start with salt. I will take a picture and post it tonight. :x

[Hollowman]

Post up your water parameters, temp, w/c regime, feeding etc please :)

[lpiasente]

I feed 3-4 times a day. Beef heart mix, pellets brine shrimp, blackworm, blood worm from time to time. Water changes 30% 3 times per week. Water aged and treated for at least 3 days. ph 6.6. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate I can't find the card but it is the second one down on the colour chart. I keep my water in large plastic garbage bins. Never been used for anything else. I add prime and aquasonic ph lowerer.I have put all the ones showing signs of illness in a spare hospital tank with 100% water change and added salt and covered it with a towel to keep it dark. The 2 biggest discus are not showing any signs but I have added salt to the tank as well.

[lpiasente]

There is 1 cardinal in the tank I can see with some white spots on his fins and freying and he is flicking. Tank temp is at 30. I can see one discus has a white dot and the others have some freying fins. All sick fish are clamped and hiding in the corner but not dark.

[jesx57]

This is the first I've heard of something like this happening. You're doing the right thing by adding salts, I use it in my water too. High temp + salts will make the Ich go through their cycle quicker (please correct me if I am wrong), so you should see their disappearance in a few days.

You say"nitrate I can't find the card but it is the second one down on the colour chart"

If you are using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Nitrate Test Kit it would be 5. It goes 0, 5 ,10 so on.

[lpiasente]

Mark can down this morning and had a look at my tank seems I had put the media in my ehiem all wrong when I cleaned it out last week. :oops: :oops: . I did have another filter sponge going as well but obviously the water quality wasn't so good. Could that have made them sick? I have got a hold of some pp. Should I use it as per Andrews instructions or keep doing water changes and salt for a few days. I am reluctant to use pp as I had just finished a prazi course on Friday? Thanks y'all.

[lpiasente]

Yep it is the aquarium pharm. co. test kit. I also have paracide (each tab contains trichlorfon). Just need advice on which road to go down. :)

[jesx57]

Hmm. Doubt your filter had anything to do with it, unless it had stirred up some underlying toxins. But then again, if your water is running through it then that would have already been a problem? I dunno, I'm just babbling on here :).

In fact, I opened up my filter yesterday since the first time I've set up my tank, (which is probably 3-4 months ago). Boy, it was dirty! I made the mistake of just lifting the top part of the canister off before blocking off the pipes and it started siphoning onto my floor! Once I fixed that, it turned it back on and it spat all this plant matter back into my tank. The poor discus didn't know which way to look!

Anyway, I'd review the situation before you start adding chemicals. How are your discus fairing now? Still the same? In my opinion, I'd just stick to w/c and salts - but this is just what I'd do. Hang in there, hopefully it'll get better from here on. :)

[lpiasente]

No better or worse. I added some food and some had a go at it. They seem to have all the signs of a paraste though. I read the sticky on pp and other than them going dark they have all the other symptoms. They probably are stressed as well as I have taken the small ones out and put them into the hospital tank. I am thinking maybe I should put them all back in together :?:

[lpiasente]

I just uncovered them for a peek and they are all looking normal. Fins held high and running to the front of the tank for a feed. The stuff on the fins must have been slime coating as there is no sign of it now. Fins are still a bit tatty but that could be nips from all the fighting over food ????? It must have been the water quality making them feel ill. Today the big fella did have one fin clamped but now it is fine. Not thinking it is all over yet, but I think maybe for a few days I will stick with the salt and water changes and keep an eye on things. Watch ya think? I did a little bit of a panic and now I feel like the boy who cried wolf but please all forgive me after what happened last time I couldn't stand it all to happen again. Thanks again and thanks Mark for fixing my filter :)

[pink66]

I am sure others will agree, you can never be tooooo concerned when it comes to our fishy friends. Better to be safe than sorry.. Early detection always makes it that much easier to fix..

Dont you just love being a "paranoid" discus parent.. :lol: It comes with the territory 8-)

I hope they are feeling much better now :wink:

[lpiasente]

Paranoid, I have 3 kids and I was never this paranoid.

[Andrew Soh]

My dear friend,

Finally things seem to have calm down....and that's great.

BUt one thing you may wish to add......

To bring your discus back to perfect health without excessive slime production.......check whether they are breathing well. If they are and gills or breathing movement is gentle...about 50 to 70 times per minute, you may like to raise the temperature to 30 ot 31c. That may stop excessive mucus secretion. Salt is also necessary.

Why I ask about breathing rate as a reprequisite for temperature hike?
The reason is raised temperature will cause less absorption of air from the surface...thus the dissolve oxygen may drop and if the discus are already struggling with breathing, raised temperature might stress them...if not indirectly killing them.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

Hi Andrew and thank you for your reply. I have come home from work now and they are all fin clamped huddled in a corner and breathing very fast. Temp is at 31 so I have now lowered it. Hope that this helps them.
Thanks again

[Andrew Soh]

Yes...lower temperature if they are breathing heavily.....down th 26 to 27c

Andrew

[lpiasente]

All done, and fingers crossed. Thanks
I wish you lived next door :)

[TW]

Hi Leanne, so sorry to hear of all these troubles. I hope all the tips from Andrew help out. Seems everything I would have suggested, you have done. So I will keep my fingers crossed for your discus & keep an eye on this thread.

[lpiasente]

Thanks. Just when I thought I had it all sorted. I have just done a 100% water change. All the babies are looking good again but the snake skin isn't looking to well. I hope tomorrow morning is better. The two in the big tank look MAGNIFICENT now that the filter is working properly and the water looks so clear. :shock:. Well as someone here says mistakesrcrucial. :oops: .

[lpiasente]

I lost the snake skin and one of the babies. The others are now looking great. Fingers crossed I can keep these ones all happy. Thanks Andrew for all the great advice and my fish all say thanks too. :D

[Andrew Soh]

You are welcome my friend.

Take care....and your fishes too,

Andrew

[TW]

Sorry to hear about the snake skin & one baby.

Great news about the others though. Fingers & toes are all crossed for them

[lpiasente]

Thanks TW. I don't think I willl go down the baby road again, they are such sensitive little things and when you don't have the experience, it's not so good.

[Andrew Soh]

Never give up...mate

Life is a learning curve....even till the day we stop existing.

If fear is an obstacle, then we may never realise our capability!!!!

Andrew :wink:

[lpiasente]

:)

[lpiasente]

:)