My first posting and unfortunately I have big problems

[Kaza]

I have a problem in my four foot tank water parameters are fine. It has a large canister filter and a 9 watt UV sterlizer. The tank has six four inch Discus and 30 neons, and some corycats. It is planted with gravel I change 25% of the water every second day and until four days ago had never had any problems.

I removed a pair of fish who keep breeding and stressing the other discus by chasing them. I did a 50% water change, so I could use the water in the other tank. Unfortunately my PH tester malfunctioned and the ph went from 6.5 to 6.0. I did not realize this until the following day, this of course stressed the fish.

The next day I noticed the neons fins were raggy and the scales were standing up slightly. I treated with malfixand also aquaclear and increased temp to 32c.

However yesterday my blue cobolt was dark, fins clamped and had some cotton wool stuff on the top pf his fins. Today he is much worse and I can see signs on the other fish that they are getting it too. I went and brought Wardleys Fungus-ade. I have treated the water with this and hope they will be fine. I have covered the tank, left the UV off so it doesnt effect the medi.
Should I add salt as well?

I will never keep neons or any fish for that matter with discus, as when you need to use heat or medi it is hard on the little chaps.

[weird]

Hi mate. Welcome to the forums, I joined under simlar circumstances when I bought 4 discus 6 months ago that became sick.

Sounds like the stress has caused a fungus outbreak. Luckily it is not too hard to treat.

Usually the first line of treatment is just water changes, increasing heat to about 32 degrees (a few community species can tolerate that heat for a short period of time however prolonged increased temperature may lead to burn out), and salt treatment.

However if medication is required, best to go for a medicine that contains malachite green. Most multicure products do. A few of these medications require increased airation of the tank.

Does WARDLEYS FUNGUS ADE contain malachite green ?

[dreamer]

with 32c your neon may not last long .....

[weird]

Not sure what the effect on tetra will be at that temperature. You might want to play it safe and not crank it up so high. What is your initial temp ?

[kalebjarrod]

take it to 32d c and add salt at the rate of one teaspoon per 10ltrs

keep up the mac green

keep the uv off and your lights

hope for the best with the neons but treat the discus first, or remove the neons to another tank

sorry to say welcome under sad circumstances :|

[Kaza]

Thanks guys for responsing so quickly, yes the medi does contain malacite green. I am sorry to see the neons suffer I have a little tank that currently I am heating so I can put them in there. My bristle noses are not happy either so will try to get them out too. God when discus are sick they look really bad. I am just hoping it doesnt spread to the other tanks, I have been washing my hands and using seperate buckets etc. I have just brought 18 young discus to grow out so I dont want any problems in that tank.

[kalebjarrod]

good idea moving the bn

they can somtimes have ill reactions to meds 8-)

[Kaza]

Quick update this morning one of the fish looked half dead, on his side, dark and covered in white stuff. However just before I put some bloodworms in for the other fish and bugger me he came up and took a couple of worms. Go figure!
However the fish in the baby tank are huddled in a group, dark and off their food. I spoke to their breeder this morning and he suggests salt and antibodics, cover the tank and last water changes.
When I am over all this I want to set up a water storage system and pump. I cant stand carrying all these buckets of water.

Does anyone suggest anything else I should be doing?

[weird]

I would increase the airation of the tank while your treating with meds, add an airstone or air sponge filter or something.

Discus are tough little buggers. I hope you guys pull through.

Thanks for the advice dave, I have added an airstone.

I also have a couple of questions, ok the guy in the fish shop dowm here told me not to add salt to the water he said it makes the hardness go up and in Adelaide our water is very hard anyway. I was surprised as I've been told salt is the way to go.

He also told me to add Aquari-Cycline to the water which is Teracycline. So I did as he suggested 50% water change and then added the medi to both tanks. Well within two hours all the fish looked much worse totally refusing food and slime is just pouring of them. The babies are totally freaked out if I so much as walk past their tank they bang into the glass and go mental. I have just covered the tank now.

Ok has anyone used this medi? Is it good? I am just praying that tomorrow I get up and they all look better. To make matters worse as I sit here typing this I am watching my breeding pair laying eggs, this is the last thing I need with 25 sick fish, I dont even want to touch this tank I am scared I could give them something.

[weird]

Did you add the Aquari-Cycline - tetracycline ? I rammaged through all my fish stuff and I found an old packet of the stuff. I remember treating my bala sharks for something I totally mis-diagnosed - I thought I had some weird disease that led to blood hemmorging when what I really had was ammonia poisoning. That med is powerful stuff, and if the med is for something which is completely mis-diagnosed then your adding alot of unneeded stress to already sick fish.

I believe 99.99% of diseases your most likely to face can be treated with either,

heat,mach green,metro or prazi.

I am not knowledgable on adelaide water but we have quite a few members here from adelaide so they can confirm whether or not that is true.

Never add a med unless you are sure you are treating the right thing.

I hope everything works out, even if it does not you might have to peg this on as a learning experience. Hopefully your guys will be alright. But don't over-medicate. And double check when adding meds.

[Kaza]

Yes I did add the Aquari-Cycline to both tanks.
This fish shop guy told me to add another dose of the antibotics every day for five days. I am just scared as I know once you start a course of medi you should finish it. However they are just so bad now what if I make the suitution even worse.

Today the babies are just huddled together in a group they are so dark and most are not eatting at all. The other tank of fish are the same. Could it be Discus plague?

This is one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever seen.

However a couple of practical questions
Should I add the medi's today? It just seems odd to be adding more when yesterdays lot is still in the water.
What about water changes should I still be doing them whilst the medis are in the water. The guy in the shop said NO.
Also these medis will kill the filter bact but how soon is this likely to take place. I can reseed from another tank, however there is no point until the course is finished meanwhile I guess i need to check the water a couple of times a day.

My breeding pair are fine at this stage, but I am not touching them at all. However if it was Discus plague they should have it too as they are in the same foom as one of the affected tanks!

Anyway any help is appreciated, at the moment I am scared to look in the tanks.
Karen

[jim]

last time I over dose the medi....my fish went nuts and bang on the wall several times a day..
So if your fish keep bang on the wall as soon as you walk pass or go near....it sounds you have over dose the medi..
most of the medi I bought mentioned that you only can give 1 treatment per week..

I also don't think UV will effect medi as well...I never switch it off even I gave medi...

I have been told that Aquari-Cyline is really bad stuff? So yesterday I did massive water changes and added carbon to the filter. In the adult tank I then this morning added fungal-aid. and took carbon out. No one as died yet. However they have not eatten in a week. I will try and find live food today.

In the babies tank I am still running the carbon and doing twice daily water changes. Today they have quite white poo and are still rubbing up against things. I am not sure what to do next added the fungal -aid as I have seen some fungal type stuff on two of the fish or add something for worms or hex.

Certain since the medi is out of the water they are less stressed and not banging into everything.

Another sign they have is floating with their head right up. I have added extra airstones. What else can I do?

[weird]

Long stringy white poo could be a symptom of hex, however I would give your fish a break from meds for atleast 3 days, even a week because of the stress they are under. Of all the meds, I have found metro to be probably the least stressful on discus but I would definitely give your guys a break. They need time to recover.

Hope they get better.

Thanks Dave, can I wait that long before giving them a treatment. They look really bad, dark, fins clamped and most not eating. Funny enough the fish like the melons and pidgeon bloods dont seem to be affected!
I also though about adding the geo liquid to the water, which will take out all traces of chemicals and at least give them great water. What do you think?
Yesterday I also set up a water barrel so the water changes will be far easier but more importantly it will be less stressful for them. Should I still be doing water changes every day or just leave them alone for a while. karen

[dreamer]

agree with dave about giving them a break between treatments. meds kill fish!! specially 'cocktails' where you put so many different kinds of meds.

never use geo liquid so cant command, but removing traces of chemical from water sound rather too magical ... why not just use charcoal? it works and cheap

[weird]

The water barrel is a great idea. Age the water with something like Prime for 24 hours. Have a heater sitting in the bottom so the temp is the same as the tank. Throw in an airstone connected to a pump.

Yes I would keep up daily water changes. 25 - 50% daily for the next 2 weeks atleast.

With respect to the barrel later on you may get more creative and add a submerged pump to draw the water into your tank, after you have gravel siphoned your water out to speed up the process.

[jim]

Hi Karen...
adding geo liquid does not take out the medi from water....it is use to treat tap water...not sure if it helps to release stress for fish ..just do water change and raise temperture for the time been...

Hope they get well

[Kaza]

Hey Dave I cant beleive it I have a bottle of Prime sitting here in front of me, which I was going to ask you guys about. Well the latest update the babies (touch wood) look a bit better. I did a 40% water change and Dave we already brought the pump works a treat. I just have to figure out a better way to stop the water then yelling to my husband to turn the pump off.
Now back to the prime checked the ammonia this afternoon and it was 50ppm I freaked and raced to the fish shop who suggested water change and to add the prime as it removes ammonia. Within an hour the fish looked heaps better, very expensive stuff. however but they are worth it. Tonight the tank is still showing ammonia. So added a bit more I also brought some ammonia reducer for the filter. Even with this problem the fish do look better and ate really well today. Five of them are still worrying me so still have my fingers crossed.
The other tanks water is good however the fish in there are about 4- 5 inches and not eating still, even with live food they are not interested. I am just keeping the tank covered doing water changes every day I just have to hope they pull through. I have fungal-aid in the water, and I put some prime in tonight as well.
I have taken all your advice and will wait a week now before I worm them. With the bigger ones how long can they go without eating, they dont look thin yet?

[weird]

Thats really great news Karen ! :D :D :D

I have had two very traumatic experiences with new discus, but with the right treatment (people in this forum are fantastic) I have been able to pull through both times. Although sadly not everyone is so lucky, and there will be times ahead when you have done everthing that could possibly be done.

In regards to treating with worms, usually the treatment is with praziquantel, however in my experience the drug can put some stress on discus.

However if the symptom is long white poo, that could be an indictation of hexicemia, which can be treated with flagyl. This is usually a non stressful treatment.

I would be sure first that you are treating for the correct disease as your fish have already gone through a very stressful time before applying further medication. Your guys will need time to recover before they all start hugging the front begging for food. :D

[Kaza]

This morning no ammonia (due to another water change at 11.00pm there is a trace of nitrites, more water changes, most of the babies are certainly getting better. Five are still dark, of those two look really bad. In the adult tank, 2 came out this morning and ate, they still look really sad and the rest still are not eating. Appart from water changes I am not touching the water. Looking back I think I caused most of the problems.

A few days ago I touched my eyes after changing the water within 5 minutes one had swollen up and was sore, did the same thing yesterday. If the water is so toxic it hirts my eyes what is it doing for the fish?

I read somewhere on this forum about KISS I think it sounds perfect. I also think before you buy these fish you should be given a information sheet with this web address. It would save so much heartache. Karen

[Kaza]

Thanks Dave, you are right everyone has been great. Before I do anything I will check here first. I think the main thing is to stablise them and no further stress. I guess I still have to wait it out with the adult tank!
I too need to relax, I have spend all day every day, lately playing with fish. I'll end up in the divorce courts if this goes on much longer. Ha Ha

[kalebjarrod]

the trick is to give the meds a chance to work, relax have a cuppa.

and if you can't help touching the tank get a white board marker, write the time and date you last did anything in the tank and don't touch it for 48hours

Geo-Liquid should not be used in conjuction with meds, it dosen't remove them just some of the active-constituants and thus making the meds less effective if effective. Geo liquid is a simple product used to "stablizie" your tanks water quailty, it acts as a flocuant, attaching to chemicals and drawing them into your substrate for cleaning.

also you should turn out your lights and uv when treating meds, most things in this world suffer from a effect from UV wether it be positive or negative. Meds never are as effective under Lights or UV, they tend to change the chemical structure of the constituant.

[DiscusMan]

Isnt it great that you can treat the fish with all these different meds adn they still are alive!

the fish are sick yes but they are also very hardy.

Hope they continue to respond well and as already stated. nice and slowly and have patience.

Wayne

[Trebs]

Can I ask, when you first removed the pair and changed 50% of the water did the ph go from 6.5 to 6.0 or is that a typo? (I'd expect it to have gone up). How do you treat your water before adding it to your tank? What is the parameters of the water you are adding?

My guess is your ph has come up quite a bit since the first w/c and has gone up further since increasing w/c's. That is where the ammonia and nitrites are coming from (It takes more bacteria to deal with ammonia and nitrite the higher the ph gets). So until the bacteria catches up you've got ammonia and nitrite.

IMO you shouldn't raise temps above 30degrees. Also if you are going to raise temps it is vitally important that there is no ammonia or nitrites present in the water. If there is, raising temps will make things worse. This is because when ammo and nitrites get up to measurable levels the bacteria works overtime to break them down. The bacteria uses oxygen to do this and there is less oxygen present in the water when the temp is raised.

I may well have jumped the gun before you answer my questions but I believe that this is probably the root of your problem.

Now that there are identifyable illnesses in the tank then you'll need to continue to treat that.

HTH.

[Kaza]

O.K I think you are right, ten days ago I removed the pair, and the ph at that stage was 6.00 with all the w/c's as you suggest the ph is now up to 6.8. however I then added 5 new fish to that tank and also raised the temp tp 32. I also took the gravel out all in all I overloaded the filter. I am thinking now that it may have been ammonia and nitrite posioning all along. I did test for ammonia which showed 0 but I dont trust the test. I brought a new ammonia and nitrite kit and they immediatly showed measureable levels. I have lost two fish and a third wont make it.


Up until a few days ago I carted water by the bucket but now the water is stored overnight in a barrel and aged with Prime. ph 6.8 and temp 30 degrees. I am still changing water daily this morning there was only a trace of nitrites in the water. Yesterday I put several large pieces of planted wood in the tanks. Hopefully will help.

I am now wondering did they really have a fungal infection or could the white stuff on the fins and ragged fins be a sign of ammonia and nitrite posioning?

Also is there long lasting damage from ammonia and notrites. The readings were about 50ppm.

The filters I am using are large canisters and UV lights can I add anything else to help?



Anyway they had 5 days of Fungal-aid, the tank has been cleared of medis for the last two days. However in the baby tank they have white quite thick poo and in the 4 ft tank the new fish still arent eating its been ten days now.

I think I will worm them all in a week or so and hopefully given time the other fish will eat. Thanks for all the help especially to Trebs who I think has hit the nail on the head.

[Trebs]

Removing the gravel would have also removed a lot of beneficial bacteria. It could have also stirrred up some nasties that may have caused the fungal infection. It's extremely important not to change too much too quickly. It's a tough lesson to learn and I think just about everyone on this forum can testify to that.

Ammonia test kits have a limited shelf life, so they need replacing every so often. It's also important to note that when the ph is less than neutral the nitrogen cycle can 'skip' ammo and go straight to nitrite. So it is important to always test for both.

It is true when discus are suffering from ammo and nitrite that they develop a whitish slime around the gills. I believe this is excess body mucus produced as a defence. Discus effected in this way can appear to be suffering from other diseases and it's easy to jump past water quality and assume it's something else. I've done that in the past.

I'd add an airstone. Always a good idea when you have ammo and nitrite in the water and when temps are raised.

As for the fins it's a fungal infection but it's not too serious at the moment. This should improve a lot just by getting the water conditions back on track.

So from here the main things that need to be addressed are water quality and the white poo. There are a number of different treatments for this problem but it's not really my strong suit. I'll leave it to the others who will be able to give better advice.

If the fins don't improve you can try rock salt first and then tri sulfur if necessary. Leave this for the moment though and focus on the water and worms.

I'd also recommend getting the temp back down to 30 until both ammo and nitrite are both 0. I know others will have different ideas about this so I'm happy to hear their thoughts as well.

As far as long term effect from ammo and nitrite posioning goes they should be okay as long as they aren't too small and that the problem isn't left too long.

HTH.

[kalebjarrod]

I have a few main concerns with your problems

A. Ammo levels of 50ppm are instant death levels, did your reading say.5ppm? these are still way to high. regular water changes are what is nesscary until your bacteria can catch up with your bio load. Daily water tests FOLLOWED by a 30% water change, FOLLOWED by a water quailty test.

B. 30 degrees c is a high enough temp, especially in summer. try and get the temp to 29-30, because if you have a scorching hot day and your tank is already at 30 it can easyily jump up higher quicker. As trebs mentioned get a airstone, if your fish are sick oxeygen is a important part in the treatment phase.

C. DON"T TOUCH THE TANK, i know its hard. but think of it this way, if your where sickasadog lying in bed, would you like your roof to be pulled off, a giant hand 1-5m across reaches in,your pushed to the side, your bed is taken out, dust stirred up everywhere, a new bed put in, and then the roof slapped back down. unless its a emergency ie; the fish are on fire, you have to stay out of the tank.

D. all chiclids hold worms in there intestines, we have the abilitys to keep there lifes so stable that they are naturally able to defend themselves agaisnt it. I recommed maybe a few pics of your fish and there poo so we can diagnose and help further.

the main issue needs to be water quaility, once this is addressed you can concetrate on the componding symptons.

hope that helps :wink:

O.K the ammonia reading was .5 ppm however as you say still to high. But that was a few days ago now there is no ammonia or nitrites in the water. I check morning and night and every evening vacumn up the mess and do a 30% water changes.

There is no sign of the fungal infection and they are all looking quite good a couple of the Red Turks are still dark but all are eating well.

Now the white poo, that seems to be getting better as well, I do have a theory about that, for years I have worked with native animals when they are stressed they loose a part of the lining of the bowel, this looked similar to what my young ones had. I wonder could white poo in discus be a sign of stress? I know it is also a sign of worms.

I understand the water tests but what is a water quality test?

I will get the temp down to 29 - 30 and I promise to keep my hands out of the tank.

The only thing worrying me now is the bigger fish in the 4 foot tank still arent eating. Anyway thanks so much for all your combined help.

[weird]

white long stringy poo is usually a symptom of hex. Treat with metro.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php

[Trebs]

Water/Water Quality test etc. It's all ammonia, nitrite and to a lesser extent nitrate.

[Kaza]

I will go and buy a nitrate test kit today. At the moment there is no ammonia or nitrites in the water.
In the four foot tank they are swimming around still off their food but today I will buy more live food and see if I can encourage them to eat.

Most of the babies are fine now, however there is a group that is hanging at the back of the tank in the corner. These seem to be the ones with the white jelly like poo. I am pretty sure it is hex?
I read the info about hex, they seem to have the systoms. But where to you get the medication, I asked my doctor the other day and she flatly refused. Do I ask a vet I dont really want to take sick fish to the vet.

[Kaza]

My vet is giving me 10 200mg tablets of metronidazole. I have read all the other posts about Hex.
However there are a couple of different ideas.
Firstly should I do it today or wait ?
3 daily treatments with 50% water changes every day?
using 6mg per litre of water.
Do I mix it into their food or add to the tank?
I would just lilke to get to the stage when I can sit back and enjoy these fish.

[Kaza]

Checked the nitrites at 4.30 and had a reading of .25 another water change. When do you think the nitirtes might stablise?
Do I need to buy new filter media as I have heard that once antibodics have been throught the filter new bactria wont grow on it again?
Should I still dose for hex or wait?

[Trebs]

The bacteria will get back to previous numbers on any surface so no probs there. Definately don't play with your filter at the moment. I would expect it to take about a week for your bacteria to catch up fully. This is provided your ph is now stable. Lots of water changes will slow the cyclying down also.

[Kaza]

I brought Seachems Stability it is suppose to stabile a new tank in 7 days expensive but if it works I dont mind.
I have been reading other posts and I see that if you are using a product such as Prime to remove ammonia/nitrites, on the test kit you will still be getting a reading. Is this true, because I have been doing twice daily water changes to keep on top of the nitrites .25 and ammonia .30. The fish are all looking reasonable, in the other tank they have even started to eat.

I started the hex treatment on the babies, spend ages reading different forums to find dose rates etc.

At the moment I am giving them 300mg per 40 litres of water every 8 -10 hours. Leaving the lights of and before medicating changing 30% of the water. I hope this is right. I will keep this up for at least three days.

I have also got my tanks down to between 28 and 29, some say for the hex treatment to work you need high temps, others say the high temps kill the medi. I had already reduced my temps so I am not changing now.

[Kaza]

Just checked the ph has gone from 6.5 to 6.1 could this be the drug for hex?
The water is aged and was 6.6 going into the tank.

[dreamer]

metro shouldnt affect your ph ... not that i check my ph regularly :P

btw, you need to raise temp when treating with metro... ~32c is recommended, i have yet to see someone recommending lower them ie. ~28c

[Trebs]

I reinterate, don't raise temps while there is ammonia and nitrite in the water. flagaltes is a serious problem and needs treating but at the moment water quality is most important.

If your hardness is low then your ph is more likely to drop. at the moment if your ph is going down this is a good thing as the toxicity of ammonia and nitrites decreaes as well. Don't go overboard as you will have the same problem you had last time. If you can try and keep your ph in the low 6 range and let this goal dictate your w/c's.

Don't know about Seachem stability but generally these types of products should be avoided. In situations like you are in at the moment they can help. What does the label say that seachem stability will do? I assume it's a buffer?

[dreamer]

i overlooked the problem with ammonia and nitrite ..my bad

hex wont really kill fish quickly ... maybe you should fix your problem 1 by 1 ....starting with water stability ie. no ammonia/nitrite and stable ph. once that achieved then star medicating your fish.

i agree with trebs to avoid all sort of ph products, discus can live in wide range of ph, as long as its stable.

[Kaza]

I have already started treating. I have just order a RO unit from Peter through this forum. He said it is idiot prove, it needs to be. Apparently I can just dial up what I want and it mixes the water so I dont need to add any chemicals or extra minerals. This will help with the water hardness problem and also PH swings. It arrives next Tuesday so I will gradually changes them over to this water.

Meanwhile will contuine the Hex treatment and try to get my stress levels down.

[Kaza]

Stability rapidly and safely establishes the bio filter and prevents new tank syndrome. It recommends that you can cycle a tank in 7 days by using it everyday at the reccomended rate. fish can be added at any time in the 7 days as long as the dosage is maintained. It indroduces a synergistic blend of aerobic, anaerobic and facultative bacteria.

Sounds great, but as with all these things Iam not sure how well they work. To be honest since using it I have had no trouble with Ammonia or Nitrites. So maybe it is good?


Now the tank is on just under 30, they have had two doses of medi and doesnt seem to worry them, should I keep on with the medis or stop and wait until I can get temp higher?? I think I should just keep going now. I have got the dose rates from werid.