Dead by morning!!!

[Big Daddy1]

Originally posted in Food.

I picked up a Flachen and Red Scribbelt almost a week ago from my lfs. This rounds my planted 90g to 7 discus ranging from 2" to <4". I am feeding Aquaon tropical and veggie flakes with Omega One frozen bloodworms. They get fed 3-5x/daily. Sometimes I feed them, for about 10 minutes, until they are full. They are young growing little guys. I haven't got beefheart yet or my dewormer, still waiting. I also have frozen Ocean Nutrition Discus formula but none of them will have anything to do with it.

So, these two knew guys get very dopy after feeding. They hide in a corner, losing all of the little color they have. Sometimes the Red Scribbelt will lay halfway on its side at the bottom. When I see this, I go to the tank and pursuade it to wake up by slowly running my fingers on the outside of the glass by it.

Why do these two fish act so dopy? They have no problem getting themselves some food when I feed. I intend on deworming the tank when my stuff comes in. I can see no signs of external problems on any of the fish and for the most part, they are active chasing each other around. The slightly bigger discus don't much bother with these two inparticular. When they haven't been fed in a few hours or so, all of the discus come to the glass to say high begging for food if I walk up to it, even these two.

Update///

Well, after keeping an eye on them for a while longer; I've placed them in 2.5g with fungus treatment. I noticed a white film starting on the red scribbelt and the flachen-although not as bad-has begun exhibiting more of a lamish nature. The red scribbelt is lying more and more on its side as the fungi continues to infest its body.

I have had a previous experience with angels and the same fungi infestation. I once fed them live bloodworms from the lfs I bought the discus from. There's a first time for every mistake. So, I asked the fellow to feed them so I could witness the little guys munching down to help narrow my selection of the red scribbelt as there was only one flachen. This little red scribbelt swallowed down a many bloodworm so I chose him. The flachen ate well enough to alleviate any concern but not near as much as my other choice. It seems he fed them live bloodworms beyond my notice as I did not see him gather the food and had a step back to watch them all eat. I intend on not calling but walking into the store and asking to see their frozen food for which they say they feed their discus. I hope not to see a brand new package of unused bloodworms but one that has a few empty slots.

If this thread should be in illnesses, please move it for me as I will most likely require a bit more assistance through this battle for life. I have an airstone and large ball of java moss in with them. I have questions as to feeding from this point.

Update///

The red scribbelt is now appearing to have given up. It is still capable of balance and movement but choses to lie on the bottom leaning against the java moss, fins all clamped only breathing.

The flachen seems to be hanging in there and giving his buddy comfort until I visit the tank and it moves up a bit.

I think the one will be dead by morning!

[BigDaddyAdo]

You never know. He may pull through yet. I have had fish that i was getting close to putting down that have pulled through.

Fingers crossed.


Ado

[BigDaddyAdo]

Thought that i would also mention that frozen bloodworms are not a good idea for juvies.


Ado

[Big Daddy1]

I thought that the frozen products reached a level low enough to kill off bateria. Why would it not be a good idea? Do they have a hard time digesting the skin or something?

[Big Daddy1]

There were both hanging in there this morning!

The red scribbelt was too difficult to get a good look at but I did see the flachen well. It had white film coming from the body, not much. It looked similar to shedding.

Could this be the slime coat or the dead fungi?

What about feeding right now?

[Big Daddy1]

Well, judging by the slow coming in replies I think everyone is busy or I've mistakenly used the emergency room improperly.

I have come to a conclusion with these guys and maybe some would agree. I believe the white slime coming off the flachen was slime coat and not fungi. I really think that these two are simply stressed.

[ILLUSN]

We need pics to be of any real help to you.
I'd get your sick fish into a bare bottom tank and treat there.

it sounds like its sheading the slime coat, to me it sounds like plague, which by this stage is usually fatal.

but again without pics I'm just guessing.

[Big Daddy1]

I would post pics but there is nothing to see. There is absolutely no visual que other than not having any color and clamped fins. The water is great, all other fish are fabulous.

One dead and the next on its way to being dead. It has lost all energy just as the other one did. If it was stressed, I would think it would be hiding the whole time. Instead, it is simply wondering around the tank aimlessly barely keeping balance. It acts like it is stoned or something.

[TW]

That's so sad, sorry for your loss. I don't know anything about discus plague, but it doesn't sound a good thing. If these 2 were in with your other discus, I'd watch them closely.

Good luck with all

[Merrilyn]

Well, judging by the slow coming in replies I think everyone is busy.

Nope, not the case Big Daddy1. A lot of the members are willing to help, but you must take into account the time difference. One post was 3.20am Tuesday (Aussie time) and the next one was 11.51am Tuesday. Not a lot of time to give you a reply, and please bear in mind, that most of us have full time jobs too, and can only answer post when we come home from work.

Okay, now to your tank, I need to know a lot more about your setup.

How long has this tank been set up, and what other inhabitants do you have.

Water parameters, such as pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate need to be posted, and what is your water change routine.

Most problems with fish tend to be related to the water, that's why it's so important for us to know what your water details are.

The shedding of the slime and the lethargic movements of the new fish makes me wonder if they were suffering from pH shock. Did you measure the pH of the water in the bag and the water in your tank before you added your fish? pH shock will kill fish, and while your existing fish may be happy with the conditions, if it's very different to the water your new fish have come from, it can kill them.

Frozen bloodworms are not an ideal food for young discus. They have a very hard exoskeleton and juveniles find it very difficult to digest. The hard skeletons can cause an impacted gut, and this in turn can also cause death. Older discus seem to manage them quite well, but we never recommend feeding them to juvenile discus.

The other thing I feel must be mentioned, is that you must never, ever add new fish to an existing discus tank without quarantining them for at least 4 weeks first. I've hear of so many beautiful discus tanks, that were a paradise until one or two new fish were added without quarantine, and the whole tank was eventually wiped out due to introduced diseases.

I'm sorry to hear you've lost one fish. I wouldn't add any more medications to the tank at this stage. Just support the fish with warmth, good flake food, and a daily water change. There's nothing more you can do at the moment, just wait it out, and hope the fish's own immune system is strong enough to fight off whatever is bothering him.

[Big Daddy1]

Thanks Marrilyn,

It is a planted 90g with three pieces of wood, 96W of light, two Emperor 280 filters and 300W heater.

Water:
NH3 = 0
NaNO2 = 0
NO3 = <5ppm
Temp = 82f
KH = 0-1ppm
GH = 2-3ppm
Ca2+ = 0
FE = ?? it was right where it was suppose to be, I have both Fe tests.
PO4 3- = ?? <25 or 50, it was right where it was suppose to be
PH = 6.6-6.8 I haven't looked in a few days but it never wonders beyond. Before and after WC (just limits, never this much at one time). When it has been over a week for whatever reason I check it first. If I find it at 6.6, I only change 25% at most because this sometimes takes me to 6.7.

I gravel vac 2-3x weekly from 25% to 40% except when I sometimes miss a week, very rare and not since I've the discus.

I have 7 slender tetra, five small cories, 1 SAE and 6 discus including this one (had seven).

Discus = (qty1) 3 1/2, (qty2) 2 1/2, (qty3) 1 1/2 that everyone calls two inch, malarky! Had them a couple weeks now and other than being deformed and getting ripped off by somethingsphisy :argue , I have been able to get some good meat on them since arriving malnourished.

What kills me is how they were both fine for the first couple days and then wham!, both were eating. This morning I found the little guy on the filter intake but still alive. I pushed him off and he started wondering around like a drunken sailor again with very lethargic fin movement. Just Monday it was still passing stool; red in color as it should be like everyone else.

I have kept discus before and stopped when I moved a few years back. This is back when leopards and lss weren't to be easily found if at all. It was basically pigeon bloods, turquoise and wild. Let me know if I've missed anything, I'm drawing a blank. Oh, the one in trouble is the Flachen strained by Hans.

[Merrilyn]

Your set up sounds perfect. I can't fault anything there.

I was hoping that there may have been something strange with your parameters that would explain why the two new fish have had such problems.

I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank too other than the pH shock theory.

Wait for some of the other guys to express an opinion. ILLUSN, samir, Hollowman ..... got any ideas?

[DIY]

If I understand it right, you have several discus that are doing OK, and in fact some thin ones that you have managed to recover somewhat..

That coupled with your water parameters makes me think it's not environmental. The two you have recently purchased are the ones that are showing symptoms and I assume were from the same source. I suspect they have been exposed to something that is now showing up.. Illnesses don't always show up straight away and the period from exposure to showing symptoms may be several weeks.

Hopefully it isn't an illness becuase if it is your other discus have been exposed and may show similar symptoms after a few weeks.. It may be something else like a (delayed) reaction to too many meds or a bad combination of meds.

If it was me, without being able to identify anything more specific I would keep the sick one in his own tank away from the others with lots of fresh water, cross my fingers and see if he pulls through.

Hopefully someone else may have some better ideas :ug

[Big Daddy1]

Well, these two guys didn't make it and after speaking with the local lfs I got them from and everyone else, I've come to the conclusion that we may never know. They came from 7.2ph and I had 6.8-6.9 at the most when I put them in. I gave them a couple hours of water introduction as I think I stated above.

If it were ph shock that put them under, I can't understand why they were both fine and eating on the first couple days. I've always associated ph shock as sudden upon introduction.

My lfs gave me a break on the purchase of two new discus. I have them in a 29g (q-tank) with 14 new h. rasboras and so far they are eating just fine. Other than that, I think they have ich which I have caught at a very early stage. I posted in the meds forum about this because it is a totally different situation. Metro and Prazi together have done this in two of my tanks.

So, I plan to very slowly reduce the ph in this tank to about 6.7 using my (florabase ?? too lazy to look right now) substrate from the main tank which buffers down to about and advertised 6.5 and does a pretty good job. I'm really thinking about diluting this substrate with something that doesn't buffer to keep from going that low. My tap is 7.2 and this ends up being a bit of a change to 6.6 over a weeks time.

Hope all goes well with these two. I've taken every precaution at this point.

[BigDaddyAdo]

I think the best precaution you should take in the future is to aviod that particular LFS.

Glad to see things are looking up though.....


Ado