HELP!!!!SKINNY, CHANGED FROM YELLOW TO WHITE, DOESN'T EAT!

[alan]

:( My Discus has become skinny, do not like to eat, nibbles on blood worms, but doesnot eat them, just chew and throw them out! does not eat flakes,or dried worms, so skinny you can see the bones, it was full yellow and now it is white!!
Tank is 60 litres, I have a big angel a tetra an algea eater(which I always forget its name) and couple of bottom eaters.
Some said angel and discus can't be together, but read on internet people have done it so many times, these two seems to be friend and like eachother!
ph about 6, temp 28-30 C.
feed them 2 or 3 times a day, no competition for food at all, she gets around enough food and test them but does not eat them! [/b]

[Hollowman]

Fish do not get skinny over night, this must have been visable for a long time. It might be too late for this fish already :(
Is your tank planted or BB (bare bottom)
How many discus do you have? if it is just one in the tank, it could be the fact that it is lonely.
How often do you change the water in your tank? it could be water quality. Can you post test results?

More likely though, i would imagine that it has an internal problem, most likely to be a worm or flagellates infestaion. What colour have its faeces been? You should have noticed if they have been dark and healthy or white (unhealthy) If white, then you need to treat.

If the fish has white faeces, then you can teat with Metronidazol (Metro) this can be mixed in with food (probably more effective) or in the water.
You can raise the temp up to between 30-33degrees as this will have the effect of raising metabolism making the med more effective. Doses at 400mg/10 gallons every 8 hours for 2 days.
Photos would be good too if you can post them.


hth

Hollowman

[alan]

To be honest I am not expert, I started this tank 4 years ago and never had a serious issue before or at least I didn't notice until now. I lost my first discus after a relocation (we moved house) , bought another one (red) and then after 3 or 4 months bought this yellow one, unfortunately the red one died 2 or 3 months ago due to starvation, I really became serious of why am I loosing them! realised this one not eating at all too!
had 3 silver dollors which dominated the tank and didn't let others close to food, my first step was getting rid of them,
thank is BB.
Never saw the poo, I can't isolate him/her to find out. When I had two (red & yellow) they where both hiding and not eating, I complained to the shop and they said if you had them for 8 months it means they are eating!
same response from other shops made me think they are right until I lost the red one and now I am on the mission to save this one, so I don't know if buying another one would help..
regarding test results:
I only test the basics, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and nitrate is about 30 on my chart, ph is 6 to 6.5 and temp is 30C please let me know what other tests should I do and I will get on to them.

[Hollowman]

Ok Alan, you have made it here now, so you will get GOOD advice, and won't be fobbed off like your shop did.

Can you tell me your water change routine? Keeping your water in tip top shape is the first and most important thing you need to do. Discus require lots of clean water to be healthy and grow.

Can you list ALL the foods you have been feeding.
What filtration system are you using? sump, cannister, hob, sponge, internal?
Did you buy your fish from the same place or mix?
What tankmates are there?
Have you ever treated for flukes or worms?

As I asked before, photos are always a great way to help us SEE your problems, even if you cannot see anything, we might.

Hollowman

[alan]

Hi Hollowman,
Thanks for getting back and the pm message.
food used blood worms, it is the only thing he/she comes forward for it but just nibble.
other foods: flake: "vipan Staple diet Alimentcompose" that's what says on the box.
Australian black worms "dried" .

worm treatment:
used Aqua worm tablets 5 days ago, 3 for my tank.

other mates: 1 Plecostomus, 1 Angel, 6 neon tetra bought last week, now are left, I beleive angel ate them. 1 red tail shark, 1 guppie, 1 Zebra danio, 1 loach (bottom feeder), 1 Discus.

Filter: EHIEM sponge filter,I change the water about 35% once a week.
tank is 60 litres, by the way I have some artificial greens "ornaments" inside, no natural greens.

the tank light was 4 years old after some reading on internet changed it last week. to a 15000 suitable for freshwater tank.

I know that I have to do some rearrangement in my fish numbers but don't know what.

also had colored gravel at the bottom of the tank, last week changed it to natural little ones, will post some photos to help.

[ILLUSN]

thats a few fish for a 60L, any chance of getting your water chemistry, PH, NO3,NO2 ammonia, temp.

vipan is a good balanced flake if your fish eat it all the better, if all they've been eating is frozen blood worm they're goin to be suffering from malnutrition, this proably let the paracites get in and over run the immune system.

at this stage your fish is proably too far gone, you have used aqua worm tablets, I'm assuming this is prazi based, if so the next treatment is a repeat in 1 week and then try some levimenisole to remove any round worms from the gut.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Where do i start.....

Tanks is way to small for your stock. The pleco alone is to much..........

Some of your fish need to be in groups to be happy and will stress if left alone.......

As illusion already stated you dont seem to be feeding them very well........

I believe that the shark will get quite territorial which will again cause alot of stress......

What type of loach???

If you are not planning on upgrading your tank i would probably remove the angel, pleco and discus and possibly the loach and shark and work with whats left.


Ado

[Merrilyn]

other mates: 1 Plecostomus, 1 Angel, 6 neon tetra bought last week, now are left, I beleive angel ate them. 1 red tail shark, 1 guppie, 1 Zebra danio, 1 loach (bottom feeder), 1 Discus.

Filter: EHIEM sponge filter,I change the water about 35% once a week.
tank is 60 litres.
.

Welcome to the forum Alan.

The guys have given you some good advice.

The main problem as I see it, is the size of your tank, and unfortunately some of your tankmates.

I think you need to decide if you want a community tank, with angel and tetras and a shark etc, or if you want to keep discus. You can't have both in that tank.

Okay, some suggestions. If you want to keep discus, then your tank is only large enough for ONE adult discus. Yep, that's right, one discus and a few tetras. Everything else has to go, sorry, and you need to increase your water changes to at least 30% twice a week.

If you want to keep a community tank, with the current occupants (minus the discus) then the only thing you need to rehome is the pleco. It will grow way too large for your small tank. These guys grow to around 18 inches long, and they are poop machines, making it difficult to keep your water pristine.

Fish shops need to take some responsibility, and warn prospective customers how large fish will grow :roll:


As far as your yellow discus goes, I really do think it's too far gone, but you could try removing him to a hospital tank (even a big plastic tub with a lid will do). Add a heater and airstone, and change 50% of the water every day. Continue with the worm treatment, as suggested, and keep the tank very, very clean. If the fish is eating some food, preferably the flake and the dried blackworms, then you still have a chance of curing him.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Fish shops need to take some responsibility, and warn prospective customers how large fish will grow


I witnessed an LFS the other day that was quite willing to sell this guy 3 or 4 of these cute little fish (tiger oscars).....

I set the poor guy straight. ;)


Ado

[Merrilyn]

I know what you mean Ado. I see it a lot. So many people are lost to the hobby before they even really get started, because of poor advice. :(

[alan]

Hi Everyone, Thanks for good suggestions. I will change the tank size. Any possibility of having discus, pelco and some neons,this would be my favorite pack! and if I want to have 3 to four discus plus 1 pelco, how many Liters the tank need to be?
I will post some photos of the current tank.

[ILLUSN]

200L MINIMUM!!!!

with a pleco in there bigger is better!, i gave up my 2 big plecs cause a 300L wasn't big enough for them :(

[Merrilyn]

Nice clean tank Alan. It looks bigger than 60 litres. What are the dimensions?

I know you love your pleco, but there's no way I'd have plecos in with discus. Once they get a taste for discus slime (and it's only a matter of time) the nocturnal pleco will spend their nights chasing after the discus to suck on their slime. The poor discus is unable to sleep, and unable to get away from the pleco. Eventually the fish sickens and dies.

Just a thought, are you sure you've got a pleco, or is it possible you have a bristle nose catfish or peppermint catfish? Both of those stay small, around 10 cm and are quite safe with discus.

Post a pic or do a google and see which species you have.

[alan]

Hi,
Tank size: 60cm W x 30cm D x 35cm H.

[alan]

To be honest the tank looks empty now as you can see!
The discus has red rashes below the eyes, you can see it on the photos.
If you can not see it clearly from the photos that it is a pelco or not I can post some more photos.

[alan]

Hi guys, thank you everyone for great suggestions, I tried to get more photos and also did get a better test pack for NH4/NH3
according to the tests ph is 6 and Ammonium/Ammoniak test says :
0.17mg/l if ph is 7.5
0.06mg/l if ph is 7
The ph of my tank is 6 so I believe the level should be 0.015 or 0.02,
(sorry the chart didn't have mesures below ph of 7, so I had to do average).
I give the pelco algea wafers.
I hope the above info helps.

[Hollowman]

Your discus has some serious defects/damage Alan. The fins are or look eaten away. :shock:

[Merrilyn]

Bad news I'm afraid. It's a pleco (can grow to 2 feet) and not a bristlenose catfish.

[alan]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for helping me, I've seperated discus from Pleco and still no improvements, the red rash on the discus makes me believe that probably there is something wrong with my water quality and the poor discus is breathing heard.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Maybe gill flukes?


Ado

[ILLUSN]

the only safe value for ammonia or ammonium is 0 regardless of PH you'll need to do more water changes to get it down and keep it down.

if you seriously want to keep your pleco, get onto ebay and keep an eye out for a 4x2x2 foot tank, thats the size you'll need.

as for your discus he/she is in VERY bad shape, if it were my fish i'd be reaching for a bucket and some clove oil.

if you really want to give it the best shot of survival, get it into a bare bottom tank (or big bucket) with a heater and airstone, do daily or 2x daily water changes or around 95% and feed live worms, i know this will give the fish all kinds of diseases, but if you try and treat aggresivly in that state it will die.

live worms are very high in fat and will put bulk on the fish fast, you'll see improvement within 2 weeks. once the fish has put on some weight worm with prazi and levimenisole, do at leats 4 treatments of each then if need be have some metro on standby to treat for protoza infections

[alan]

Hi,
Thanks. after reading about gill flukes I added parablast to the tank,1 and a half tablet to the 60 ltr tank, this was a week ago, now pleco does not clean the tank, and the skin changed to light color, same as the shark, from black it changed to gray!!
No obvious change in discus. The idea of live worm is good but it might not survive another chemical treatment. the other problem is I couldn't find metro anywhere.
managed to get a 20 ltr tank to set it up as (bucket), have to find a heater now and isolation treatment will start.

[alan]

The idea of clove oil, was that for real or been used as an expression?

[Hollowman]

Alan, when we feel that we want to do the best thing for a sick, damaged or badly deformed fish, we DO reach for clove oil.
Clove oil can be used both as an anesthetic or to euthenaise fish. We, as humans use it for tooth-ache. But used to cull fish we can mix 10-15 drops in a gallon of tank water and add the fish. (or mix the drops in a glass and shake to mix, then add slowly to a bucket with the fish already in there)
It puts the fish to sleep with no thrashing, or distress, they just go to sleep. When the gills stop moving, I leave for a further 10 minutes, and I know the job is done.
I don't think ILLUSN means that you have to use it, but when all else fails, sometimes it is the only way to go. hth

Hollowman :(

[ILLUSN]

I was serious, sometimes when there isn't any hope its the most humane thing to do rather than watch the fish suffer and starve to death slowly.

if you keep medicating your main tank the way you are you will loose all your fish, plecos are sensitive to many meds and will drop dead , even at a low dose.

treat your discus only in isolation, then get a bigger tank, or move on the rest of your fish.

[alan]

Hi Guys,
Sorry to mention that I lost the discus, This was the third one in 3 years time and a bit of disappointment for me as it shows i am horrible in keeping discus, lost 3 out of 3!
I changed 70% of water in the main tank as others weren't feeling good.now the battle is on to save others from meds.