My latest discus

[jasonmomm]

Just purchased another discus today :D
What do you think?

[Hollowman]

It's always difficult to try to judge a small discus, but from what I see, you have a Turq. It does have a nice eye colour, but the thing that stands out for me is the deformed rays in th caudal fin (tail) Probably a problem in its development at fry stage.

Other than that, he/she looks happy enough, feed well, lots of good water and see how it develops.

I take it you have got this fish in a quarentine tank for observation/treating if necessary, for 6 weeks ???

Hollowman

[Hollowman]

I just read Andrew's section on fins, and treating. he suggests that it is caused by a bacterial infection, this being the case, it was at an early stage of its development. He says that it can be cut back, and can grow back. I do have a friend who has done this, but it's not for the faint hearted.

hth

H

[jasonmomm]

Hi Hollowman,

Bugger I didn't notice the tail when I bought it :(

Unfortunately I don't have a QT tank at the moment, but I only have 1 discus in my tank and decided to add 2 more today as my existing discus has been hiding all the time, very dark, not eating much and quite jittery (has injured itself twice racing around the tank in fear).

Haven't done very well with my first foray into discus, having lost my 1st one, my 2nd one is stunted and now my latest ones have deformed tails. I bought these latest 2 from a local importer too thinking they would be better quality than my LFS.

Was told today (by the importer) that doing 2 w/c a week is wrong because changing the water conditions constantly makes them sick. He said 1 small w/c every 2 weeks is enough, yet everyone on here is saying water change as much as possible. I'm confused now.

Anyway I think this may be the last discus I buy for now.

[Hollowman]

The guy you bought them from ought to get out of the fish business in my opinion, you can tell him that too!! :evil:

He knows NOTHING about discus and their requirements. Discus require the highest quality water, all the time. We do this by replacing water on a very regular basis, 2-3 or 4 times a week, sometimes daily.
Tell this guy to do some reading. People like that only make people like yourself (and please don't take this the wrong way) kill thier fish, and tell everyone else that discus are difficult to keep. This is not the case at all, it just take regular care of your water.

Please listen to the experts on here for future advice.

For your information, discus do better in groups of more than 4 fish, being shoaling fish, it just makes them happier.
Mixing new and old fish together with no QT can introduce disease and bacteria into your existing stock and kill the lot. QT is your responsibility, and not the importer's. Never rely on what they say, specially the one you have bought from.


Don't fret about the slightly deformed rays, he looks happy enough. (for now) Keep an eye on the skittish one.
Next thing you need to do is set up a water change routine. 40% every 3-4 days should help. Juves really need to be in a BB tank to grow to full potential, so maybe consider this.

H



Hi Hollowman,

Bugger I didn't notice the tail when I bought it :(

Unfortunately I don't have a QT tank at the moment, but I only have 1 discus in my tank and decided to add 2 more today as my existing discus has been hiding all the time, very dark, not eating much and quite jittery (has injured itself twice racing around the tank in fear).

Haven't done very well with my first foray into discus, having lost my 1st one, my 2nd one is stunted and now my latest ones have deformed tails. I bought these latest 2 from a local importer too thinking they would be better quality than my LFS.

Was told today (by the importer) that doing 2 w/c a week is wrong because changing the water conditions constantly makes them sick. He said 1 small w/c every 2 weeks is enough, yet everyone on here is saying water change as much as possible. I'm confused now.

Anyway I think this may be the last discus I buy for now.

[mcloughlin2]

I will side with the importer here - I don't really care what is said on here, but changing a discus water more then once a week, especially when its more then 20% is what causes people to fail at keeping discus. When I first kept discus i changed 20-40% up to five times a week. Guess what they all died?

Unless you have a water storage drum, which you can play with and get all the water paremeters right I would suggest water changes once per week of about 20%.

Good filtration and a good feeding schedule are more important then changing the water.

[jasonmomm]

This is exactly my point, so many varying opinions based on people's experiences. I've kept and breed Africans for over 7 years and rarely lost a fish so I understand about maintaining good water conditions etc..

The importer was highly recommended to me by some other discus people here in Melbourne. :?

We are on heavy water restrictions here in Melbourne so changing water more than twice a week is a bit of an issue, especially given I have 3 other African tanks which require weekly changes also.

Anyway my plan is to do 1 water per week for the next 2 weeks and see how the fish discus go. I like the idea of a water drum to prepare water for water changes though, so something I might try and look into.

Thanks for your help and advice Hollowman and McLoughlin2

[nicholas76]

Opinions will vary between us all.

My only advice is to apply the "Kiss" methodology Keep is simple !!


When i first started i was doing the big old water changes per day. I could never maintain a stable environment.

eventually i learnt a few smaller w/c per week was far more beneficial, whilts ensuring Good Filtration was a key factor.

My last discus tank had cannisters connected just for charcoal filtration let alone bio filter material.

You will work it out sooner than later ,, use what you read in books , what the professionals tell you and go with your own flow from there!

Dont give up just yet! :wink:

[jasonmomm]

Thanks Nicholas.

I'm not giving up on discus as I have 3 to look after, but I don't think I'll be buying any more until I get a happy balance going between water changes and fish health.

I certainly appreciate everyones advice and support.

[Hollowman]

Totally disagree with you mcloughlin2. You can take responsibility from here.
I try to help with the experiences that I have had and the vast experiences of some of the best in the hobby. Regular, big water changes and good food for juvenile fish encourages growth rates....fact. I have never heard of a fish breeder leave his fish in a tank for a week and then just do a 20% water change. These fish are used to (while they are very small to the size bought) 100% water changes every day, sometimes more....fact.

If you want to recommend tiny weekly water changes, then do that, it will stunt the fish....fact, this is normally done by the lfs, and I see a lot of that on here, where people buy from their lfs, who have had new discus in their tanks for a few weeks with minimal water changes, they are full of disease and now stunted....fact, but I strongly believe that the vast concensus will side on the idea of regular sizeable water changes.

Jason, if you do not want to believe my advice, just buy yourself Andrew Soh's book, 'The Naked Truth' Read as much as you can, read threads on raising discus, read threads on water chemistry, read threads on discus basics.

I only try to help with the best of my knowledge, if I don't know, I don't post. Some people learn the hard way, some take advice.

I'm out

[Hollowman]

Sorry for the double post, please remove one Admin.

In addition to my comments please read about this basic tank setup.

This is an extract from a very well respected and acknowledged lady called Carol Roberts. She is some-what of a Discus Guru in the States. (Extract from Simply Discus.com)


Here is how I grow out juvenile discus

Equipment
55 gallon bare bottom tank.
Aqua clear 500 (two internal sponges - one prefilter sponge on the intake)
250 Watt heater and thermometer. Temp 84 degrees
Siphon hose to clean tank
Water storage container (pump and hose optional)

Discus
6 - 10 healthy juvenile discus from a reputable breeder

Care
50% daily water change with aged (dechlorinated, warmed, aerated) tap water.
Wipe down inside of tank with paper towels at least every week.
Rinse prefilter daily, sponges and internal filter once a month.

Food
Feed juveniles 4 - 6 times per day. (Quality flakes and bits, black worms, beefheart) Don't overfeed.

Grow out the juveniles in this tank with no additions. You will have to remove some discus as they grow. These can be sold to other hobbiests or the local fish store. A 55 gallon tank will hold 5 or 6 fully grown discus.

Later, when you get other tanks, especially large show tanks, remember . . . Quarantine all new fish and plants 4 - 6 weeks before adding to your existing stock

Note the part where carol says 50% daily water change

Ok, I have clamed down now :roll: :wink:

[DIY]

First off, I like the patterning and colours on that discus. Will be intersting to see how it develops as it grows.

Regarding water changes, there is a particular importer in melbourne I know of and have bought discus from (quite probably the same one) who has been importing and keeping discus for a very long time - far, far longer than I have been keeping discus. The one I'm referring to has variable quality from shipment to shipment but one thing I have to say is he keeps very healthy and confident discus whilst doing everything "different" to the norm on this and other discus forums.

I wouldn't do it the way he does, and I wouldn't recommend his methods to others becuase I don't do it that way myself.... BUT he has quite possibly forgotten more about discus than I know and it works for him....

If we were all the same, and always did things the same way then life would be very, very boring and there would be no advancement. You need to take on board everyone's advice, sort out what you think is good advice from "opinions" and then try the methods that makes sense to you.. if they don't work try a different method.

In my opinion :wink: you have been told by the importer that constantly changing water conditions make them sick... and the advice you will mostly see here is to perform frequent water changes.. there is a way to do both - age your water in a water aging drum or similar and change an amount you are comfortable with frequently. Smaller changes do not change the conditions in the aquarium greatly but still allow you to replace used water with fresh water.

[jasonmomm]

Thanks for that Hollowman,

Please don't take my questioning as that I don't believe you. It's just I'm getting so much conflicting information from various sources whether it be this site, other websites, LFS, local importer and my own research. I'm just trying to figure out what is best for my discus.

But one thing I've picked up on that if lots of water changes are required then it would seem paramount to have a water container/drum to age, declorinate and heat water in so that you have a steady water conditions.
I for one don't have this and use buckets from tap (with declorinator, and mixing hot/cold water) which is what I've always done with my Africans with no ill effects whatsoever. But I think this may not be the way to do it for discus. So I'm now looking for a drum or large water container for this purpose. Anyway thanks again to all for their help and recommendations, it is very much appreciated.

[Hollowman]

First off, I like the patterning and colours on that discus. Will be intersting to see how it develops as it grows.

Regarding water changes, there is a particular importer in melbourne I know of and have bought discus from (quite probably the same one) who has been importing and keeping discus for a very long time - far, far longer than I have been keeping discus. The one I'm referring to has variable quality from shipment to shipment but one thing I have to say is he keeps very healthy and confident discus whilst doing everything "different" to the norm on this and other discus forums.

I wouldn't do it the way he does, and I wouldn't recommend his methods to others becuase I don't do it that way myself.... BUT he has quite possibly forgotten more about discus than I know and it works for him....

If we were all the same, and always did things the same way then life would be very, very boring and there would be no advancement. You need to take on board everyone's advice, sort out what you think is good advice from "opinions" and then try the methods that makes sense to you.. if they don't work try a different method.

In my opinion :wink: you have been told by the importer that constantly changing water conditions make them sick... and the advice you will mostly see here is to perform frequent water changes.. there is a way to do both - age your water in a water aging drum or similar and change an amount you are comfortable with frequently. Smaller changes do not change the conditions in the aquarium greatly but still allow you to replace used water with fresh water.

Hi DIY,

I agree that we all have our ways of keeping discus. My ways will be different to yours, but we learn from a general consensus of opinion, then form our own methods for our own situation.
I can agree to a point that for ADULT discus, less water changing in a PLANTED tank can work. (although I wouldn't recommend it) BUT, for JUVES, which this and the others are, Jason should (imo :wink: ) start big regular water changes to get the best out of his fish. IMO, if he sticks to small water changes, in 3 months time, he will post photos of his fish again, and they will look terribly stunted.
When people post photos of fantastic adult fish, it draws fish keepers into the discus world. That is what they have seen and want, getting good advice right off the bat means that they can achieve this without killing their fish, stunting them, and being disappointed.

Hollowman

[DIY]

Look around for used food grade drums, often the used ones available have been used to transport pickles. Around $30 is the going rate and they hold 200+ litres.

[jasonmomm]

DIY the local importer I bought from was OA (I won't name it completely in case that's against the rules on here). I assume this is the importer you were suggesting.

His discus are all very active and confident and the two I bought were feeding within 30mins of being in my tank and not shy at all. Much cheaper and better quality than the LFS near me.

Anyway like you said, perhaps a water drum/container is the way to go.

Thanks :)

[TW]

Hi jasonmomm,

not only will your discus benefit from water that is aged, conditioned & heated to correct temp, but IMO, you will find water changes so much easier than the old bucket & mixing hot/cold tap method. Using a pump to get your fresh water from the ager to the tank is much kinder on your back.

I have Africans too, so this means I can't add the buffers to my aging tank. But I don't need to, as pH is controlled in my discus tank by C02 (for the plants - the low pH is just a lucky by-product of C02).

Good luck with your discus, he looks a pretty one.

[Hollowman]

Thanks for that Hollowman,

Please don't take my questioning as that I don't believe you. It's just I'm getting so much conflicting information from various sources whether it be this site, other websites, LFS, local importer and my own research. I'm just trying to figure out what is best for my discus.

But one thing I've picked up on that if lots of water changes are required then it would seem paramount to have a water container/drum to age, declorinate and heat water in so that you have a steady water conditions.
I for one don't have this and use buckets from tap (with declorinator, and mixing hot/cold water) which is what I've always done with my Africans with no ill effects whatsoever. But I think this may not be the way to do it for discus. So I'm now looking for a drum or large water container for this purpose. Anyway thanks again to all for their help and recommendations, it is very much appreciated.

Jason, it's ok mate,

I used bucket on my tanks before I worked out an easier way. I use a mix or RO and HMA for mine as I live in a very hard water area. I use 10 gallon drums now for collecting and aging.
If you use water out of the tap, then it's ok, been there done that lol. As has been said, stable is good. Because you change lots of water does not mean that it becomes unstable. I have never kept Africans, so I am not sure how much of a hardy bunch they are, what I do know is Discus, and they will be the first to tell you if they are not happy with the conditions they are kept in.
Good luck, I may rant once in a while, but I just like to get people on the right footing first.

[DIY]

I thought as much jasonmomm.. still can't get used to seeing goldfish in the tanks but I think it helps give the discus confidence by having an active fish swimming at the front of the tank.

I agree with hollowman though, to get the best size out of your juvi's you need to provide constant food and constant water changes. Feed at least 4-5 times a day and if suck out the poop as often as you can, the ultimate is to suck out the poop after each feeding so the water is pristine at all times.. its a lot of work but you should end up with big healthy and impressive adults :thumb

Taken from one of my tips in another thread....

"You don't really keep discus, you actually keep water... the fresher and cleaner the water is, the better it is for the discus that have to live in the water you keep."

[Merrilyn]

Good filtration and a good feeding schedule are more important then changing the water.

I simply can't agree with that statement. They are all equally important, food, filtration, clean water and warmth.

I know where you're coming from mcloughlin2. There was a time, not too many months ago, when Sydney tap water was so bad (unless you could store it in a drum and pre-treat) it was like adding poison to your tank. I know a lot of people who lost fish after waterchanges, not only in Sydney, but Brisbane too. The drought caused fish keepers a whole lot of problems. One way to counteract the bad water, was to do small weekly waterchanges, and filter heavily through carbon or use RO water.

But that is not the ideal. Juvenile fish need waterchanges, and lots of them. Do you remember an experiment that Ben did on here last year, where he took half of his spawn of blue diamonds, put them in a 4 foot bare tank and had a constant trickle of water going into and out of the tank, equivalent to around 200% a day.

The control group, he also placed in a large bare bottom tank, and changed the water twice a day, around 50% each time. This was the way he usually did water changes on grow out tanks.

At the end of 8 weeks, despite being fed exactly the same, the group in the flow through tank were much larger and healthier than the group in the normal tank.

Think of it this way, as your fish eat and grow, they pass waste, some solid waste and some liquid waste. Your filter, no matter how good, is not removing all of this waste. It remains in the water until we remove it with a water change. Yes, I know all about the breakdown of waste in your filter, but once again, that sludge stays in your filter (and therefore in your water) until you remove your filter media and rinse it.

Now think about how most of the discus we buy today are raised. They are kept in bare bottom tanks without filtration, just huge daily water changes. No chemicals, no filters, just clean warm water, and lots of it.

The asian breeders have realized that this is the most effective way to raise juveniles and turn them in to big healthy fish in the shortest possible time.

Can they all be wrong, or is it possible that maybe all our high tech filtration could be replaced by lots and lots of clean water, and our fish would be happier and healthier.

We don't have unlimited supplies of clean water in Australia, and to do the same type of water changes that the asian breeders can do would be impossible and totally irresponsible. That's why we rely on our filters.

We are trying to give our fish the cleanest possible water, but even our highly filtered, highly treated water is really only a very poor second to the real thing.

[DIY]

Do you remember an experiment that Ben did on here last year, where he took half of his spawn of blue diamonds, put them in a 4 foot bare tank and had a constant trickle of water going into and out of the tank, equivalent to around 200% a day.

The ultimate in frequent water changes... it's like changing a few drops every second, every minute, every hour, every day :lol: :lol: :lol:

"rushes off to search for thread with Ben as author......"

[Hollowman]

[quote=Merrilyn]

"rushes off to search for thread with Ben as author......"

Yes, please post the link DIY :)

H

[DIY]

My searching is poor I think... I found this thread where Ben setup the flow through tank but not the comparison of juvi growouts

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4711&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=grow&&start=0

[ivo]

hey jason, there is one more i noticed from the pictures and find it quite strange. it is better to read my comments by looking at both of the pictures which you posted in the other duplicated thread with the same subject title. especially in the first picture, there is a disconnection between the bottom of the chin and the body part just before the pelvic fin ( do you call that body part - vent?). initially i was thinking may be the discus was breathing heavily with both gill plates widely open, but then i was checking mine and there is no way that you can see the other side of the gill plate no matter how heavy they breathe. can you see what i am talking about?

[Hollowman]

Ivo, I see what you mean, but isn't that just the illusion of the vertical bar ?

[ivo]

hey steve, you need to go to jason's another thread same subject title and look at the first picture which is not posted on this thread that received several replies. i wish i knew how to put a mark on the area on the picture.

[Hollowman]

hey steve, you need to go to jason's another thread same subject title and look at the first picture which is not posted on this thread that received several replies. i wish i knew how to put a mark on the area on the picture.

Yes, got it, it still looks like a black area (marking)

H

[jasonmomm]

Its just the vertical bar, although the picture did make it look like a defect because of the driftwood in the background :lol:

Apologies for the double posting by the way, stuffed up when adding pictures.