Discus got crazy, any suggestion how to save it?

[zharko]

Hi all,

I have a problem with my discus, it got crazy moving very fast through the aquarium and hitting the walls!
This happened before, and I already lost several discuses this way. I don't want to loose this one as well.

Roughly one month ago I had nine adult discusses in the aquarium (the tank is around 350 liters), and one had a slimmy white waste. I know that is a sign of intestinal parasites, and I used flagellol to treat it. Soon after the treatment one discuss got crazy and in matter of days died. Now, two-three weeks later one other discus got crazy.. I know what it leads to, I wanna stop it.

Any suggestion what this might be caused from - the discus getting crazy, and how can I save this one? and how can I prevent this occurring again in future?

Thank you very much,
Zharko

[Hollowman]

Can you post your water parameters please, this might help. also a thought, can you feel any tingling when you put your hand in the water?

H

[samir]

have you ever treated for external parasites ?

[Greggy]

Sounds like a water quality issue. Fix the water and you'll fix your Discus. If you don't get the water right you'll continue to kill them.

Good water quality basically amounts to:

6.0 < pH < 7.6
0ppm NH3/NH4+
0ppm NO2
<40ppm NO3 (if non planted then < 20ppm NO3 would be better)
Nil medications in the water

Regards,

Greggy

[zharko]

Guys, thanks for the fast replies.


I have never used anything for external parasites, not at least in the last year and 9 months (as long as I have the discuses).

When I put my hand in the water I can not feel any difference with ordinary water, so no tingling.

The water parameters:

PH: ~7.4
NO2: <0.3 mg/l (closest to zero on the scale of the test)
NH3/NH4: ~1.0 mg/l
My NO3 test is out, I will post that one asa I have the test.

The NH3/NH4 is too high. Suggestions? (other than changing part of the water, which I am currently doing)

If helpful, I can also post the past few months history what I did and how the fishes reacted.


Regards, Zharko

[Hollowman]

Any history will help. The tingling thing was just to rule out stray electrical discharge into the water from a heater.

[ILLUSN]

YOUR WATER NEED ATTENTION!!!
Do a massive water change, 90% then refill and test your water again your NO2 and NH3/NH4 will be below detectable limit. you NEED to keep it that way, this may meen daily 90% water changes, for the next few weeks till your tank cycles. and it can maintain your stocking level.

other things you can do are a quick vac 30mins after EVERY feed to remove ALL uneaten food and waste. this will help keep your ammonia/ammonium down, lowering your ph to below 6 will force the NH3 to be converted to NH4 which is fas less toxic

[DIY]

PH: ~7.4
NO2: <0.3 mg/l (closest to zero on the scale of the test)
NH3/NH4: ~1.0 mg/l

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Ammonia will change to less toxic ammonium below pH7.0, but above pH 7.0 is very dangerous, 1.0mg/l is toxic I'm surprised they are even still alive to be honest.. must be tough!

As ILLUSN said:

Do some massive waterchanges, add prime to help detoxify ammonia, lower ph to below 7.0 to convert ammonia to ammonium, combination of all of the above - do as much as you can as soon as you can!

Something has killed the good nitrifying bacteria in your filter, and it is starting to cycle again (based on measurable NO2) so you will have to keep up massive waterchanges until it's fully cycled.

[zharko]

Because I have the discuses almost two years, I think the water quality must have been reasonably well in the past, or they should have been gone by now. I lost several discuses under strange circumstances with the same symptoms, they get crazy, and at some point I find them upside down in a corner entirely shaking and moving the body uncontrollably. These sad cases, however, I can connect with water change. Once two discuses were lost due to overfeeding (a friend was feeding the fishes while I was on holiday, and later I discovered that the quantity she was feeding them way too much.. it was misunderstanding). Another time the same thing happened soon after I cleaned the external filter.

What I'm suspecting has caused the problem this time, is that I turned off the biological filter, and also took out the active coal when I treated the fishes with flagellol - this is what I was recommended in the local store to treat a fish with white slimy waste (intestinal parasites). Two days later I put back the coal, and soon later I also restarted the biological filter. All this was by following the user's manual of the medication, but apparently something went wrong and killed the bacteria. Then I was doing water changes of 20-30% per day.

You are right, I will start doing massive water changes.

It was in my mind not to do a massive water changes, as discus do not like drastic changes in their water parameters.
Isn't it dangerous to change 90% of the water per day?
Shall I do it at once, or shall I do it three times 50% (which will amount to ~90%)?
Or other suggestion for a safe massive water change?

Zh.

[DIY]

What I'm suspecting has caused the problem this time, is that I turned off the biological filter, and also took out the active coal when I treated the fishes with flagellol - this is what I was recommended in the local store to treat a fish with white slimy waste (intestinal parasites). Two days later I put back the coal, and soon later I also restarted the biological filter.

Yep, there's the reason for sure, turning off a filter will result in the death of your nitrifying bacteria, once the food and oxygen for the bacteria is used up (can be as quick as a few hours) they will not be able to survive.

If it was me, I would do about a 90% waterchange straight away to get rid of the toxic ammonia. Yes the large change may stress your discus, but it's better a stressed discus than a dead one.

I would them monitor the ammonia, nitrate and nitrate levels probably 2 times a day but at least once per day, and while the ammonia was measurable I would be doing at least 1 x 50% waterchange daily to try and keep the ammonia as low as possible. On top of that I would add some blackwater extract, ph down or whatever you have to lower the pH to < 7.0, in fact I would aim for about 6.5

[Hollowman]

To answer the question as to 'do discus like large water changes?' yes, it is good for them. As long as your 'new' water is similar in parameter to what you are taking out, they will thrive with it.
Can I ask if your tank is planted or bare bottom? not sure if you have said before.
How much and what are you feeding?

Again, I am sorry to say, a lfs has given some bad advice, or not told you the full story. I hope you find advice here helpful. I do.

H

[samir]

when you have a high ammonia reading, one huge 90% water change is better than 3 small ones. there's no point treating for anything if you have ammonia in your tank.

[BigDaddyAdo]

Also use a biostarter like seachem stability.


Ado

[zharko]

After the ~90% water change the discus seem much better! Before they were always hiding when I approached the aquarium, and now they are not and they swim everywhere in the tank, which was not case before. Instead of stressed they seem more relaxed after the change ;-) Before taking other measures, I will continue with the massive water changes for now to keep the parameters below detectable level. Thanks for the advises guys

I am using Sera discus granules to feed them.
Here is info on the food: http://www.sera.de/index.php?id=86&L=1&no_cache=1&sword_list[0]=discus
It's some kind of complete discus food. I am feeding twice a day a quantity that they seem to be eating in 10-15min. I am not sure, what is the right feeding quantity? How do you determine that?

There are no plants in the aquarium, the bottom is covered with sand, and there are also wooden parts around.

[DIY]

After the ~90% water change the discus seem much better! Before they were always hiding when I approached the aquarium, and now they are not and they swim everywhere in the tank, which was not case before. Instead of stressed they seem more relaxed after the change ;-) Before taking other measures, I will continue with the massive water changes for now to keep the parameters below detectable level. Thanks for the advises guys

Great to hear! and thats what we are here for to help each other :wink:

Regarding feeding, I'm probably not the best to advise on this becuase I am a chronic overfeeder :oops: :lol: ...

I would say feed 3 times a day or even more if you can and smaller feeds. They probably should have eaten it all within 2-3 minutes, more than that and you are probably overfeeding (like me) :shock:

[Hollowman]

Glad to hear things have settled. Keep up the water changes and everything should stablise.
You can feed other foods too, bloodworm, beefheart, brine shrimp, white worm, a varied diet is recommended.

Good luck

[zharko]

Sad news: the discus moving like crazy through the tank is still doing that. He seems to be speeding for couple of seconds at the highest speed I have seem discus moving, along the way avoiding obstacles - he doesn't hit the wood in the aquarium only the walls. he's doing this 2-3 times a day (as far as I managed to notice).

The water change came good to everyone in the aquarium except for him.

Suggestions what the problem might be, and how to save him if there is a way?

[waitaki]

Is he swimming around in circles - could it be worly disease?

[zharko]

No, not exactly in circles, he is swimming around in the aquarium from one end to the other, then back, and back again etc. On the way he is avoiding obstacles.

Strange thing is that most of the time he acts completely normal hanging around with the others, perhaps occasionally hiding, and then at some point he gets stressed or something and starts swimming high speed.

[Hollowman]

Maybe just a drama queen!! :lol:

[samir]

if you water is okay treat it for gill flukes

[waitaki]

do a search on whirly disease there is a thread on crazy fish in another forum. It could have neurological brian damage caused by internal parasites.
One of my discus started going crazy and swimming in circles a few times each day for 2 days. I treated it with Prazi strraight away - it hasn't done it again.

[zharko]

the discus died, thanks all for the help

[waitaki]

orry to hear that :cry:

[Gajowa]

Hi

I am sorry to hear sad news. This was a domestic strain of discus, or was it wild?


do a search on whirly disease there is a thread on crazy fish in another forum. It could have neurological brian damage caused by internal parasites.
One of my discus started going crazy and swimming in circles a few times each day for 2 days. I treated it with Prazi strraight away - it hasn't done it again.

Can you please give us a link to that forum? This problem becomes more and more serious around the world. I wonder if someone will find what causes it. Link on whirling disease

http://members.tripod.com/discus_unlimited/article/whirling.html

But I am not sure if that is the same illnes

Barbara

[waitaki]

Can you please give us a link to that forum? This problem becomes more and more serious around the world. I wonder if someone will find what causes it. Link on whirling disease


ok this is the link to the thread I read:

http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/discus-discussion/37843-crazy-discus.html

mmm, the acticle you have posted doesn't sound to good does it :(

after treating mine immediately with prazi my fish hasn't been swimming in circles since. I sincerely hope it doesn't reoccur.

[zharko]

This was not end of the horror in my aquarium, I lost three more discuses since the last post. Two got crazy and one simply died without getting crazy. I have five remaining in the tank, but it seems their future is not very bright.. very depressing :(

According to the links, it's probably whirling disease, at least for those getting crazy.

Suggestions what to do to save the remaining discuses? (if possible)


This was a domestic strain of discus, or was it wild?

I'm not sure, I think it was domestic.



One of my discus started going crazy and swimming in circles a few times each day for 2 days. I treated it with Prazi strraight away - it hasn't done it again.

What is Prazi? I didn't manage to find much on the net.

[waitaki]

oh man - sorry to hear this. This is so sad :cry: :cry:
Is there a fish vet near you where you can get a post mortem on your fish?
Prazi is praziquantel (100mg) it is parasite eliminator.
But it has to be 100mg!
Goodluck with the rest - I hope it works out well for you and your fish

[Gajowa]

In our case with wild greens we stopped that speeding by lowering the temperature, ph to 4-4,5, aded plenty of peat and salt. But in blue variety and domestic strains (snow white & red white) it didn't work. Red white we had for 1,5 year, snow white shorter. That is why I don't think it is exactly the whirling disease. I have notice one common thing: edges of the fins becomming white in colour, like dying tissue. Every single fish in our case had this.
I have to add, that domestic discus hasn't been in contact with wild. All equipment to every tank is seperate and after use is disinfected.
Prazi not always helps. We try that as well. In one case Bactopur Direct (Sera) helped.

Barbara