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View Full Version : Rio Branco Breeders dead!



Mattzilla
Sun Jun 29, 2008, 11:28 PM
Hi everyone,
last thursday night after doing a w/c my female Rio Branco died and the male was dead within 36hrs too. To be honest i have no idea what killed them and i guess the best way to solve this mystery is to place all the details here and see what everyone thinks.

Starting with their tank/filtration etc

Tank: 4x18x18 (approx 250ltr)
Filtration: 1 x eheim 2226 canister, 1 x largest aqua clear hang on filter there is, 1 x large air driven sponge filter.
Heating: 1 x 300watt heater - temp 27degC
ph: taken at time of female death - 6.8
Other tank mates - 6 small (3cm) common bristle nose cats
Lighting: double globe 4ft light (can't remember the globes in there but that shouldn't matter)


Ok that's the tank specs, so here is what happened just before the female died. I did a 25-30% w/c with aged (24hrs), airated, treated (with aquastar - double the reccomended dose as usual) and heated (27degC) water to that tank and the tank below which hold several hundred fry ranging from 2-3 week old fry to about 6-8 week old fry and some common bn ranging from 4-9cm. This is a common w/c that i do about once a week.

At the time of the w/c i saw no reaction from the breeders or any other fish.

To the breeders tank i added a double dose (maybe sligthly more than double) of Flourish Excel to kill off some bushy algea on the plants. I added 60ml (to finish off the bottle, hence the little extra) while filling the tank.

About half an hour after doing the w/c my better half went in to feed the fish, as she loves to do, and called out to me saying the the female was sitting on the bottom of the tank with dark stress bars and breathing heavily. I investigated and wasn't overly worried but i thought i'd just watch her for a few minutes. She began to dart around a bit and was not swimming like she normally did. I knew then that something was very wrong. She would dart and smash into the tank and objects then just kind of float off for a while then do it again. she would dart into the gravel then dart to the top of the tank and almost jump out.

At this stage i thought there must be something bad in the water from the w/c so i started to drain about 25% of the water and filled it up with treated, but not heated or aged water (cause i'd only just refilled the water barrel). there was only a 1-2 deg dip in water temp after the w/c. there was no improvement in her condition. i quickly added a standard dose of aquastar to the tank incase i had forgotten to add it previously or if there was some extra toxins/chlorine etc in the water. also added a handful of rock salt

I had a divider in the tank seperating the two breeders because i was resting her after a recent spawn. i thought that maybe i should remove the divider to boost water flow throught the tank. so i did and the male began to strut his stuff for a few minutes (appearing to be in perfect health) before he then parked himself in the corner while the fmeale darted around.

At this stage the female was rappidly going down hill. she was losing balance and tipping over a lot.... laying on her side. Swimming sideways and upside down....drifting in the current a lot too.

Within the next ten mins she was completely dead! all this within 30 mins of finding her.

My jaw had hit the flaw and i was freaking out a little. i didn't want to lose the male too so i did another w/c. i figured there had to be a toxin or poison that i had accidently added when doing the original water change. it was another cold water w/c and the tank temp dropped another 2 degC but i thought i was doing the right thing by pumping in as much fresh clean water as possible.

At that stage the male was still parked in the corner sitting on the bottom. He was not dark or showing sress bars but was breathing heavily. He stayed that way that nigth and the next morning was pretty much the same. I did another w/c with heated, treated, airated water and monitored his progress all day. By the end of the day, just above his tail was starting to darken quiet a lot and his condition was worsening. another w/c... no change.

The next morning he was dead.

Which leave me stratching my head...becuase the little 3cm bristle nose cats are all fine and having a great time eating algea!

The tank below that recieved the same identical original w/c was fine...no casualties or any signs of ill health.

The only things i had done to the breeders tank that i did not do to the tank below was add 60ml of Flourish Excel and clean the hang on filter (which consisted of simply changing the filter wool and hosing out the sponge - my usual basic clean).

My ideas are:
I added the 3cm bn's about 1-1.5 weeks previously and maybe they had a disease? the geos didn't show any signs of ill health during this time except that the male was a little off his food the day before the female died and the female was little skittish the day before she died. Those behaviours on their own where nothing i worried about because all fish can be a little skittish or off their food at times.

When i added the flourish and finished the bottled i dunked the bottle in the tank water to fill it a little, shake and tip back in the tank. Maybe the bottle had something on the outside like a poison it had picked up somewhere. But if that was the case then why are the little 3cm bn's still alive??? they are very sensitive to chemicals or poisons....

Well that's about it...sorry for the rambling on but i kind of wanted to add all the details up front instead of answering a lit of questions. Sayig that though please do not hesitate to ask questions of there is some info i have not included that you think may be important.

I would love some healp solving this tragic tale or death, so please offer your thoughts and theories of what killed my breeders so suddenly and without warning.

thanks

matt

tanzy
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 03:28 AM
Oh gosh, I feel so sorry for you, Mattzilla. What a horrible experience to go through. My only guess is that a poison got into your water and the baby bn's were able to escape it by hinding in the plants.

They were certainly beautiful fish.

Kind regards

Kell

ILLUSN
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 05:46 AM
thats bad news mate,

the excell worries me, I killed a breeding pair of birstlenoses with it but i spilt it and used a 4x dose, if yours was only slightly over 2x they should be ok.

if both fish went quick i'm guessing its enviromental but that doesn't fit with your fey being ok (and your bristlenoses).

you really cant rule out disease. when they died was there any evidence of gill damage, or any unusuall bloating, did you notice any redness or infamation of the anus? is it possible to sacrifce 1 fry and put that back into the effected tank and see if it does ok?

Proteus
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 07:22 AM
....having a think about this one....

I have some ideas but will think over them a little before I reply in full...

Regardless, what a bugger.... (You still have some juniors from that pair in my garage tank which are yours for the taking)

Mattzilla
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 07:40 AM
Thanks Proteus, looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

as for the juvies at your place....i'm lucky enough to still have about 200+ fry from their last 2 spawns!

Cheers
Matt

Proteus
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 10:50 AM
Still having some issues thinking of what may have caused things, however there are a couple of things which stand out in my mind.

Given that it is close to a month or so since you took the fish back from there holiday residence here whilst you were away, maybe, just maybe the lack of load on the tanks filter for a few months, then the re-introduction of the fish caused a Nitrite spike. On top of this, add the fact that they were in quite a sterile environment whilst here for a couple of months (aged water from the same water supply and pipes basically that you get your water from, however a much larger filter and 36w UV).

Also, moving fish around does reduce there immunity to even the smallest bug.

Once again, these are just wild shots in the dark.

Another thing, has there been any construction nearby, or new water pipes being laid that you know of? Quite often when they do work on the pipes a lo of crap gets in the system which can only lead to issues.

Another silly thing... you havent sprayed any insect spray or paints or maybe neighbours anywhere near where the water is aged. That can lead to a toxic cocktail.

If I think of anything else I will hit the keyboard.

Merrilyn
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 12:11 PM
Ohhhh Matt. So sorry to hear that. I know how you must be feeling.

The first thing that sends up the red flag is the double dose of Exel coupled with rinsing out of the concentrated sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

It's the only thing that makes any sense. When you look at it from a logical point, the fish were fine before the water change and the addition of the Excel. Within half an hour, the female was showing signs of distress and 10 minutes after the addition of the rock salt she was dead.

The male, sitting on his own side of the divided tank didn't show any symptoms until the divider was removed when he also began showing signs of distress and despite some large water changes over the next 36 hours, he also died.

Okay, a few questions - the divider that you had in there, was it a solid divider, or mesh. Could it have been solid enough to prevent some of the toxin from passing from the females side of the tank into the males side?

When you added the Excel, which side did you put it in ? I gather you put the rock salt into the females side of the tank.

Although the immediate waterchanges were the way to go, I think it was probably too late. The toxin had already caused fatal damage.

My best guess is that the toxin caused gill damage preventing the exchange of oxygen and the fish suffocated.

I can't explain why the small bristlenose weren't affected, unless it's to do with their slower metabolism and lower oxygen need.

I'm only guessing Matt, same as the rest of us, but it seems to fit the profile.

I've never known an ammonia spike or even a nitrite spike to kill that quickly. It had to be something in the water.

Do a full waterchange, and recycle that tank before you put any other fish in there.

Hollowman
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 12:48 PM
I am sorry to hear this, I lost my best Penang Eruption today too, it just died!!! no signs, nothing!! :cry:

For your situation, did you wipe down the sides of the tank with anything during your cleanup? I know of a friend who wiped down with a contaminated paper towel and lost the lot in just a few hours.

Hollowman

ozarowana
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 02:24 PM
Sorry for you loss Matt. They were a fantasic looking pair.

Seems overdosing flourish is a big no no. Did a quick google and there are a few comments floating around that shrimp, snails and fish can be collateral damage.

Appears glutaraldehyde may be the culprit.

Mattzilla
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 10:12 PM
Another thing, has there been any construction nearby, or new water pipes being laid that you know of? Quite often when they do work on the pipes a lo of crap gets in the system which can only lead to issues.

Another silly thing... you havent sprayed any insect spray or paints or maybe neighbours anywhere near where the water is aged. That can lead to a toxic cocktail.

Hey Proteus, some interesting thoughts. As far as i know there hasn't been any construction around lately or new water pipes etc.

My water aging barrel is in my garage right next to the tanks and i am extremely careful about spraying anything near the tanks. we did get our place sprayed for cockroaches and bugs in early april when we got home from overseas and about a thousand cockies had moved in. Everything was extremely well covered when the guy sprayed and i haven't had any problems since then. i was worried about a poisoned cockie or bug falling in the tanks after the spraying but i'm pretty sure that would have happened closer...not this far doqn the track. Plus i havn't seen anything in the tank. The guy who sprayed explained that once the chemical had dried it could not be 'reactivated' again and transfered around the house.

Thanks mate

Mattzilla
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 10:25 PM
The first thing that sends up the red flag is the double dose of Exel coupled with rinsing out of the concentrated sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

It's the only thing that makes any sense. When you look at it from a logical point, the fish were fine before the water change and the addition of the Excel. Within half an hour, the female was showing signs of distress and 10 minutes after the addition of the rock salt she was dead.

The male, sitting on his own side of the divided tank didn't show any symptoms until the divider was removed when he also began showing signs of distress and despite some large water changes over the next 36 hours, he also died.

Okay, a few questions - the divider that you had in there, was it a solid divider, or mesh. Could it have been solid enough to prevent some of the toxin from passing from the females side of the tank into the males side?

When you added the Excel, which side did you put it in ? I gather you put the rock salt into the females side of the tank.

Although the immediate waterchanges were the way to go, I think it was probably too late. The toxin had already caused fatal damage.

My best guess is that the toxin caused gill damage preventing the exchange of oxygen and the fish suffocated.

I can't explain why the small bristlenose weren't affected, unless it's to do with their slower metabolism and lower oxygen need.

I'm only guessing Matt, same as the rest of us, but it seems to fit the profile.

I've never known an ammonia spike or even a nitrite spike to kill that quickly. It had to be something in the water.

Do a full waterchange, and recycle that tank before you put any other fish in there.

ok when i extract chemicals from bottles i use a syringe with and extender on the end of it. it's a small tube about 4" long which means i usual extract from the middle or bottom of the bottle anyway. I'm also in the habit of at least giving it a quick shake anyway. i could have been lazy that day but i doubt that it would have been overly concentrated anyway because of the syringe extender thingy i use. (my ex was a nurse and got it fro work for me)

The divider is solid but it has lots of holes. it does slow the water flow though in that i could have released extra on to the male when i took the divider out. my train of thought there was that maybe the females side was holding more toxic water and that i could dilute it by creating more free flow though the tank. it was a good idea at the time.... but i think you are right. i'm pretty sure the male was ok until then. like i said when i took away the divider the male pumped up and started strutting his stuff for the female as he usually does. after about a minute he parked himself and started showing signs of distress.

when i added the excel i used the syringe, which is a 12ml syringe, but only did 10ml at a time. i squirted it all over the tank in different places. i can't remember exactly but i am pretty sure that i did equal amounts on both sides of the tank...but i could be wrong. i usually squirt any additives into the flow areas like towards the filter intake and outlet. actually that makes me think. the female was on the side of the tank with the outlet. maybe by squirting towards the intake all the excel was quickly sent to the outlet side of the tank becomeing a toxic dose. that makes sense anyway. also i did add the rock salt to the females side of the tank. what effect do you think this caused?

thanks mez, as always you're a great help

matt

Mattzilla
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 10:27 PM
For your situation, did you wipe down the sides of the tank with anything during your cleanup? I know of a friend who wiped down with a contaminated paper towel and lost the lot in just a few hours.

No this w/c was just a traight water change....no cleaning involved.

thanks
matt

Gajowa
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 11:21 PM
Hi Matt
Sorry to hear about such a horrible death of your fish.
Did you notice by any chance, if the edges of pectoral fins become white? I am asking, because I have lost few discus to simmilar symptoms, and in every case the pectoral and tail fins turned white.
I have also seen a glass fish doing the same soon after arrival in Poland from Asia. Was your fish turning and twisting body to one side?

Barbara

Mattzilla
Mon Jun 30, 2008, 11:23 PM
Hi Matt
Sorry to hear about such a horrible death of your fish.
Did you notice by any chance, if the edges of pectoral fins become white? I am asking, because I have lost few discus to simmilar symptoms, and in every case the pectoral and tail fins turned white.
I have also seen a glass fish doing the same soon after arrival in Poland from Asia. Was your fish turning and twisting body to one side?

Barbara

no there didn't apear to be any discolouration of the body or fins really. just stress bars.

Mattzilla
Tue Jul 01, 2008, 12:54 PM
Well finally after getting advice and feedback from almost 100 people from all around the world i can confidently say that it was the double dose of the flourish excel that killed my fish. i am not blaming seachem or the flourish excel itself, but the way i dosed the tank and the qauntity. the label does say to not overdose and there is a reason for that.

In the future if i want to eradicate brush (black beard) algea i'll do it the same way but in a tank with no fish.

I would like to extend my sinsere thanks to everyone who has offered their condolences, feedback, knowledge and experiences in this situation. i have learned a hell of a lot out of a tragedy. I have also been a little overwhelmed with some people's generosity! i have people offering my fish left right and centre. it's great to have friends like that!

Again thanks for your support and here's to leaning from my situation!

Cheers
Matt

Merrilyn
Tue Jul 01, 2008, 02:17 PM
It was a very hard lesson to learn Matt, but perhaps others may learn from your tragic loss.

I'll put a warning about the risks of overdosing in the planted tank forum.

DIY
Tue Jul 01, 2008, 02:29 PM
Sorry to hear about the loss Matt.

It's a good wake up for myself, and I'm sure others. When I get an outbreak of brush algea I triple dose excel to knock it on the head and it works wonders... thankfully it's not that often but I'm not sure I'll do it again...

BigDaddyAdo
Thu Jul 03, 2008, 04:45 AM
Triple dose? Does no-one read the instructions?

It was more than a double does though wasnt it Matt?


Ado

DIY
Thu Jul 03, 2008, 06:27 AM
Triple dose? Does no-one read the instructions? :lol:

It's a fairly common procedure amongst the planted community, obviously given my discus I first tried 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 2.5x and ultimately had to dose 3x to have a positive impact on brush algae in my tank. Was pretty nervous first time I tried it, did it on a Saturday morning and sat in front of the tank for 4 hours watching for any signs of discomfort.. even had a cycled tank ready just in case. 2 of my discus spawned on the glass that evening so go figure :?

Anyway given Matt's loss I will be rethinking the use of excel in this way of course.

Hollowman
Thu Jul 03, 2008, 07:17 AM
Such a shame Matt, but at least your tragic loss will help others to understand the need to dose to manufacturers instructions.

Did you ever have offspring from these fish to carry on their line?

H

Mattzilla
Thu Jul 03, 2008, 12:07 PM
It was only a double dose that i did....

yeah i still have a few hundred fry so they will live on!

Matt

Hollowman
Thu Jul 03, 2008, 07:11 PM
Small consolation having the fry, but hey, you will have some scorchers out of them for sure.

:)

H

BigDaddyAdo
Fri Jul 04, 2008, 04:43 AM
Doesnt 5ml do 200L?


Ado