Breeding for resiliance?

[DIY]

This might sound silly, but I'm curious if anyone has considered breeding for strength / resiliance as an outcome?

I figure discus by nature are not as strong as other aquarium fish, show me a long term discus keeper that has never lost a discus, and I reckon you're showing me a liar :lol: :lol:

It seems to me most of the tank bred discus available have been interbred for generations to achieve the different colour strains. Breeders have selected primarily for shape and colour. Over time the interbreeding coupled with expert care has provided us with fish that have weak immune systems and genetics. On top of that medication use across generations of breeders probably means the same fish carry bacteria and parasistes that are resistant to common meds.

I have noticed now breeders in germany are trying to breed fry completely away from the parents to avoid exposure to the parent's bacteria and parasites. My first thought is won't that inhibit development of the fry's iimnune system?

I'm wondering if it might be time for breeders to go the other way, for example to breed survivors of disease as they will carry increased mmunity to that disease they survived. the fry will likely be exposed to the disease and the first few generations may have very low survival rates but after a few generations they will have a better immune system and resistance to the disease?

be interested to hear other's thoughts on this :ug

[zar]

i agree with you 100% DIY junkie and i really think it's time for breeders to do that. It seems that tank bred discus have very weak immune systems nowadays. I think thats one of the reasons why people are switching to wilds..

[ILLUSN]

To be fair to comercial breeders, they need to make money.

If they breed strong fish that dont look as pretty they arn't going to sell as easily as weaker fish that do look pretty, and the market dictates that they want bighter, more amzing fish each time, not healthier stronger duller looking fish.

I personally cull off any weaker fry from my spawns but then again I'm not in it to make a buck. if the livlihood of my family depended on it I'd proably cull a lot less heavily than i do and push out more weaker lower grade fry.

i think the interst in wilds is a step back in the right direction, personally I'd also prefer a tank of nice strong healthy tough wilds over a tank full of dazzeling domestics, but people like us on this forum are still the minority.

[zar]

You're right ILLSN, most people are attracted to discus because of their patterns, colors etc. but at the same time the overall impression of discus in the aquarium community is that they're real soft fish and die easily etc.
and thats why many don't want to keep them.

If there would be tougher fish on the market, maybe they would attract more interest amongst the general aquarium hobbysts. Personally i think a dull discus such as a brown is still one of the most beautiful fish.
I'd rather buy a good shape brown that's tough than a "super eruption moonlight blue anaconda scorpion snakeskin", i prefer shape over color but thats just me.

the best is probably to buy locally bred ones, that are not just bred for profit,they should be tougher. I wonder if the bare bottom, empty tank, breeding has much to do with the overall immunity of tank bred fish.

p.s.: the "super eruption moonlight blue anaconda scorpion snakeskin discus" name is hereby copyrighted by me, so any breeder who just wanted to throw out his new strain under this name wont be able to. :-D

We should start a thread on ridiculous strain names i think. :)

anaconda, scorpion, leopard, i'm waiting for zebra, elephant,rhino...shrek greens would be nice too :-D

[DIY]

Totally agree - without the colourful discus bred by the commercial breeders we probably wouldn't have this wonderful community :wink: We need them as much as they need us. the advantage of the tank bred strains aside from the colours and shapes attracting new discus enthusiasts is the ability to be kept in planted community tanks with variable local water chemistry. Some of the american enthusiasts are keeping and breeding them in pH up to 7.9.

While I openly admit don't have any real experience with pure wilds, I understand they really need to be kept on their own, in tannin stained water < pH 6.5 and no plants. I'm basing this on Heiko Bleher's 10 lessons primarily. If there were only wilds available to us I'm sure the discus community would be much smaller than it is today.

I guess I was thinking more in terms of local grass roots breeders putting a focus on a hardy strain, there is certainly a market for pure wilds and the latest new strains like "fine polka dot Lime and lemon happy lucky joy cheetah" delicate strains and I think a market for some hardy tank bred strains that are still colourful but not as far as the latest strains. I guess a starting point would be something like the good old blue turquoise.

Zar you can add my strain above to your thread if you start it
:lol: :lol:

[Hollowman]

Doh! :roll:

[Hollowman]

I am going to disagree here, if you have been a fish keeper, whatever fish you have kept before, you have killed fish, not intensionally but we all have. So where have these fish come from? they have all come from big fish farms, there is such a market for fish that these places are making big business by producing large amounts of fish by whatever means they can. Does this mean that they are all genetically weak?
As has been said, we, as hobbiests can weed out all the weak fish from any fry that we have, maybe on a larger scale some weaker ones are let through the system. Maybe a poorer cross of fish produced some weak fish, but we still buy them if offered for sale.
Wild fish do not necessarily make stronger fish, I would say quite the opposite. Who gets wild caught fish and doesn't treat them for any parasite or worm?
My angle at this argument comes from the side of the uneducated fish keeper. If we are passionate about our fish, we read books, we ask questions and seek advice from those who have more experience than we do, before we even think about buying one or just dropping it into our local water, no matter what it is like.
How many times do you read in the emergency room, or illness and disease sections ''I just bought 2 discus, put them in my community tank and now they are looking dark and not eating'' You ask about water parameters, and the reply comes back, ''ok... my other fish are fine'' or ''I don't have a test kit''. and how often do we hear about people adding a new fish without quarantining and then we get ''my new fish is hiding in the corner and it's slime coat is coming off''
Now I am not saying that there are not weaker fish out there, but the whole thing about keeping an animal of any species is to know about it well before you get it. So many people kill their fish through ignorance, not because the strain is weak. I keep Asian fish, I like the new spotted strains, are they weak? no, I keep them in the conditions that they are happy with, I feed them food that they like to eat, I clean the tank on a regular basis, I water change regularly, I wipe the tank down, squeeze out my sponge filters, and all this because I know that this is the conditions that keeps them in a tip top condition. Happy fish are healthy fish.
Ok, I keep meds that cover many a situation, but I have not had a problem that I would attribute to poor genetic weak new breeds. I have always listened to the advice of my peers, and world renound experts like Andrew Soh, and because of this I do not fear discus, but embrace the fact that they need specific care.
Education is still the key, forums like this give all fish keepers the opportunity to discover the ways of keeping fish through the mistakes and errors we have all made on our discus journey.
Personally, I have found discus to be very hardy, and they can survive a whole plethora of abuse. You just need to know the few rules of healthy fish keeping.

Ok rant over :)

Hollowman

[DIY]

I am going to disagree here.. My angle at this argument
No need to diasgree, I certainly wasn't looking to start a thread that would turn into an argument but rather your thoughts on the matter :wink:

Human nature being what it is - there will always be impulsive purchases by first time discus keepers often based on poor advice from LFS that do not really know any better. All we can do is hope they learn from their mistakes, ask for advice, read books and browse forums like this one. Experienced keepers like yourself work hard to give our discus the conditions they can thrive in, and yes we all make mistakes!

getting back to my original thought - I take it you are saying, that mostly the interbred "fancy" strains are no weaker in either genetics or immunity than the original wild discus so you agree with my opening
This might sound silly, but... :lol: :lol:

[Hollowman]

:D
No flame war here DIY, sorry if the word 'argument' was the wrong choice.

Umm, yes, I am saying that with proper care, I feel there is no reason why we should think that either wilds or new domestics are any different in resilliance to disease.
I think enviromental effects, affect the fish. Mostly caused by us. :wink:

H

[DIY]

It's all good, I was asking for opinions :thumb

Do you think the resilience could be increased by selective breeding?

[Hollowman]

Do you think the resilience could be increased by selective breeding?

I feel that some strains are more resilliant than others. Mostly the common PB's seem to be quite strong compared to say a BD based fish. This could possibly be due to the fact that with a PB, you cannot observe the darkening of colour like you can with a BD. But for what I have seen PB's seem to be stronger with a better growth rate too.

Whatare your observations?

[DIY]

My personal observations are similar to your in terms of the biggest factor being the environment we provide.

Once you take that out of the equation by all being in the same tank, I notice that within a group of juvi's some from same parents and some from others, there always seems to be one or two weak ones. they are the first to breathe heavy, the first to go dark and hde in the corner and ultimately I lose them. I also notice that there is always one or two that just seem to handle it better, stress, less than perfect water etc. They still grow fast, rarely go dark and hide in the corner and survive even the most stupid mistakes I make (And I have made a few!!)

That's what got me thinking, if the "survivors" bred would I end up with a stronger strain?

[Hollowman]

Yes, I totally understand where you are coming from here.

But in nature isn't this the case with many species of animal. Survival of the fittest. Take turtles for instance. It takes a super effort for a female to make it to breeding age, let alone find the beach where she hatched, but she does eventually. She must be at the peak of health to do this. So for each one of hundreds of her siblings, how many made it back to that beach? How many were eaten? how many drowned? How many choked on a plastic bag?
I don't think it was a case that she was the strongest, but just that fate allowed her to miss the harmful elements in her life. Think of this in your tank and a batch of fry, there will always be the strongest fish that do well, there will always be the ones left behind.

Now, are these ones left behind any weaker? some will be, there will always be genetically weak ones in any batch, we cull these and let the others grow. But even though the parents were strong enough to produce a good batch what I am saying is, we still step in and remove ones that we feel are weaker, sometimes we give some the benefit of the doubt, some do ok, others fade.

Does that make any sence at all?? :)

H

[DIY]

I think So :wink:

If I can summarise, what you are saying is breeders must cull the obvious weaker ones, and all the rest are similar in strength, genetics and immunity?

Right now I whish I paid more attention in biology, history and science classes :oops:

I have watched a lot of documentaries and a couple stick in my mind as possibly relevant here

One documentary was on the plaque that killed millions of people across europe. From what I remember the experts believe (at least the experts in this documentary) that they have identified genes or dna I can't remember which, in modern humans that indicate we have a natural immunity to the virus. The basic premise is the people that died in the plaque did not have this immunity, and the ones that survived did. In terms of survival of the fittest, modern humans are now resistant to the virus that killed millions in history. I have no idea if the experts in that documentary are correct, and I'm sure there are other experts that disagree, but it sure sounds plausible.

The second documentary that comes to mind, is when the spanish people invaded the aztecs. the aztecs suffered massive deaths from diseases that the spanish brought with them, how can the spanish survive? my understanding is thier immune systems were equipped to cope with the disease, whereas the aztecs immune system could not.

Getting back to breeding discus for colour, surely in "some" cases the most colourful discus are also the weak ones. Since a breeders primary focus is to develop colourful strains they will do thier best to keep that colourful discus alive. In nature they would probably not survive, but us clever fish keepers with our knowledge and medications are able to manipulate the environment to allow them to survive. If these are then interbred and crossbred with others that have also been able to survive where in nature they may not have to due to being even slightly weaker, then aren't we going to have weaker but certainly more colourful discus as a result?

Of course I don't understand how genetics and immunity works, that why I wanted to hear others thoughts

[Peter M]

Are you possibly referring to hybrid vigour of domestics through line/inbreeding or evolution of the immune system of captive bred from day one to present? :)

[DIY]

I'm not sure I understand your question fully, but I guess I was thinking of both.

I wonder if we have reduced vigour through the line/inbreeding? and can we increase vigour through selection of the fittest / most vigourus?

I also wonder about the possibility of weaker immune systems through reduced exposure to pathogens, reduced stress (or better to say excellent fishkeeping :lol: ) and reliance on meds.

Now I don't really understand it - I assume immunity to a given disease can be passed on from parent to fry, if I'm right, then if survivors of a disease are bred could we end up with discus that cope with the original disease better?

Is the reverse be true - if several generations are not exposed to the disease, will the immunity be weakened and therefore the discus be at risk of the disease if they are unwittingly exposed to it?

as I said, I wish I paid more attention in class :oops:

And what sparked my thinking, if we raise fry completely away from the parents would we compromise immune system development and end up with discus that is compromised in it's way of coping with any stress or disease? I'm sure I read a theory that the slime coating on the parents also contains something in it that helps the fry's immune system in a similar way to newborn babies recieve a kickstart to thier immune system through the mothers milk. I have no idea if this is correct though.

If I'm talking sh#t and have it all wrong just tell me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[zar]

I dont really think things will change but i wish i could go buy discus without having to quarantine for 6 weeks and use antibiotics, pp, dewormers etc..
Hollowman, you might be right in saying in nature it's survival of the fittest. But with breeders and fish that come from large breeding farms, i think its more survival of the prettiest :)

I personally do think, and maybe fishgeek can add some professional opinion on this, that if discus are exposed to more pathogens
bacteria and what not at a young age it should help them to build up their immune system, some might die some will get through but it'd be more
close to a survival of the fittest scenario which discus have in nature.

Instead, breeders keep discus in bb tanks, with 100% water changes sometimes twice daily to grow them out as quick as they can to make money. They isolate their fry from all nasties in order to sell as many as possible, and i dont blame them for it they have to make a living.

I dont think they can produce strong fish under those circumstances, at least not what we would consider strong and with our tank maintenance regimes. Not many of us do massive daily waterchanges on their tanks and a lot of us like to keep discus in community tanks with gravel, plants and other fishes.
After discus have been raised under top conditions and a very sterile environment, the fish gets transported from asia to us here, then very stressed the fish go to a crowded ordinarily maintained tank in a store get exposed to all sorts of pathogens, bacteria etc and then we buy them and actually really see how tough they are.

Thats why I prefer much more to buy fish from a local breeder. There isnt many in Brisneyland but i think it's the best thing to do, or buy semi adult or adult imported fish which are a bit tougher. Locals who dont do large scale breeding have more time for fry and if nothing else, the fry will be acclimatised to your local water conditions from an early age. You might not be able to get your "sunset fire red spotted anaconda albino dragon" but you might get a nice tough red turq :).
You have guessed it right, "sunset fire red spotted anaconda albino dragon" is also officialy copyrighted by me now. :)