Offsprings of this pair...

[nag]

Hi All:

I'd like to know how the offsprings of this pair would look like... :)

[kalebjarrod]

if you cross those two you will probabley end up with a strain of fish LOL

sorry for the poor joke its early,


seriously, don't know but with parents like that can't be bad

[nag]

Hi Ryan:

It is normally said that in animals, dominant gene will be that of male
and the gene sharing ratio is 60% of male and the other 40% of female...

So, still breaking my head how the offsprings would look...considering that both are "Solid" strains...

Regards,

[Glenn]

you will get some funky red pigon bloods

[kalebjarrod]

genetics is a funny thing

60/40 my be correct in a perfect world

but it an't perfect, i belive the cross will strengen the fishes gene's as they are obivously from different lines

if the offsping are nice looking you will have the benifit of stronger lines as well

give it a go, whats the worst that can happen?

[DiscusMan]

First of all the question is why are you breeding.

If jsut to do it then it doesnt matter what they make if they wanna do it then let them go for it.

or if you are trying to acheive something then it is sort of the same as above. The gene makeup of the fish you have i take it are unknown to you so you dont know what you will get apart form san meras and pigeons. Then you will get a genetic mixture of the two and you will also get the parents of the san merah and the parents of the pigeon and any other fish that are in there blood lines back 2 generations i think. and then you will get mixtures of all the above. All these are possible as it takes a long time to breed a true type producing fish.

Pigeons are not good to breed with i think as the peppering that is in there background is something you dont want to have coming through on a sanmerah baby for example or any other fish but that is just my taste.

Just let them breed and let us know what you get adn have fun while your at it.

Wayne

[nag]

Thank You Ryan and Wayne...

Here's the parental pattern...

San Merah:
Brilliant Discus --> Ghost Discus
Ghost Discus x Thai Red Brown Discus = Virgin Red
Virgin Red x Wild Brown Discus F2 = San Merah

Golden Pigeon:
Brown Discus --> Golden Discus
Thai Red Royal Blue Discus --> Pigeon Blood Discus
Golden Discus x Pigeon Blood Discus = Golden Pigeon?

Any crossing with a Pigeon Blood Discus will result in 40-50% of offspring with Pigeon Blood Gene

Source: Exotic Discus of the World

Regards,

[Glenn]

You will get about 80 to 90 % pigon

[DiscusMan]

Glenn is the pigeon really that dominant over the other genes.

Damn i will make sure i dont let any of my fish pair up with a pigeon then. :)

If i could get rid of the peppering i would go for it but i think the breeders in Malaysia are already working on this so i aint gonna re invent hte wheel.

So nag you got them paired up yet.

Wayne

[nag]

Thanks Glenn...

Well Wayne, if Glenn happens to be right, I'd still work with the remaining 10% and will get into selective breeding...

Okay, while we are at this topic, I'd like to know how generation breeding is done, what are F1, F2....F5 series are...?

Can you pls throw some light?
Thanks,

[DiscusMan]

FRom memory.

The F numbers refer to the number of times that you have put the fish of the same batch together. So i am unsure as to if the first lot of babies is F1 but i would assume the F1 would be the offspring of the first brother sister crossign then the more you cross the brothers and sisters together you get F2 F3 f4 so on.

That is the general idea thou.

Wayne

[lesley]

Hello Nag,

not trying to be smart, but I am not sure about the male genetics taking precedence, if this was so, a lot of breeding would be made easier. In some horse breeding and, I believe, greyhound racing a maternal line is followed.

I have a Murray Grey Cow who produces the same type of calf (superb) no matter what sire she is put to. I also had a poll hereford cow who always superb male calves, regardless of sire, but never had a nice female calf. I think lots of variables are there and the main thing in successful breeding is to maintain a stable "line". We bought our current german shepherd bitch from a breeder whose dogs were of of similar "type" (different lines being bred but of similar "type", she is the best dog we have ever had. Not easy in discus, since without pedigrees you don't know what is behind the fish you buy.

just my thoughts on "genetics".

[sunshinediscus]

You won't know what the genetic makeup is until you breed them especially as far as the pb gene is concerned. In many cases you will get 40 to 80% as others have said but it is also possible to achieve 100% pb discus in the 1st generation if the pb gene is dominant in that individual. It's a lot of fun to cross different discus together and see what comes out.

Good luck

Rod

[nag]

Thank you very much Wayne and Rod... :D

It is said that in fish breeding, you'll achieve a "Stable Strain" normally in F5 batch...and anything beyond F5 will lead to 'Genetic Deformation' in fish...
Is this true...??

Secondly, when we speak of a fish like Discus, to reach F5 it may take about 6+ years...isn't it?

Regards,

[DiscusMan]

It is said that in fish breeding, you'll achieve a "Stable Strain" normally in F5 batch...and anything beyond F5 will lead to Genetic Deformation' in fish...


Regards,

Youd have to realyl get this answered by someone who has done it.

I have witnessed the deformities that you encounter whenyou do breed to lcose togehter. The batch of fry has only got 3 left at present and they are not going to well. They got a lot of fry with fin deformities.

So i wouldnt let this put me off tryign to do it just once this happens you know to stop breeding those fish together and try some otheres.

I do wish I understand more abotu all thsi genetics stuff when i get soem spare time i will study some of the book i have that talk about it in direct relation to fish.

Wayne

[sunshinediscus]

Hi Nag,

I guess it depends on what you are trying to acheive and which gene you are trying to fix as related to how many generations to acheive that gene in pure form. EG in the case above with your 2 discus you are trying to breed, lets say the goal is a solid red pb which i bet you will get a % of in the 1st generation. lets assume the pb has dominent genes for pb then the 1st generation will be all pb based but not dominent as they will all carry the ressesive gene of the red fish so when you breed the next generation a % will be brown red based like the grandparent, According to the laws of inheritence this will be 25%. Along with this a further 50% will be genetically identical to the parents, that is looking like a pb but having a red brown ressesive gene. But the good part is 25% will be dominant for the pb gene. Now all you have to do is find these valuable fish as they will look identiical to the 50% carrying the ressesive gene. The only way is to breed each one with an unrelated discus and see how the babies look, each time you get one that breeds 100% pb then it is put aside until you have a nice colony of dominant pb's. Breed these together and the next generation will be 100% pure pb all having dominant genes. That is only 3 generation..............but have you created a pure strain!! In terms of 1 gene then yes but the color may not be stabilized to call it a strain in the classic sense. Breeding red fish is more of an accumulation of genes for red color, we breed the reddest fish from each generation and gradually the strain as a whole will increase in red content until all are totally red. The gene doesn't actually turn on and off like a gene for pb. This could take 3 generations like in the previous example or perhaps 5 or 6 generations maybe more. A lot depends on luck and your selection skills. Other strains will never breed true like the snakeskin discus, from what i have heard noone to date has bred 100% snakeskins in a batch, so 5 generations are definately in question here.

I reacon it is possible to breed 1 generation in under a year, if we use fathers to daughter (better fertilizing skills that most young males) instead of brother to sister there is no reason why you can't turn 1 generation over in 8 months or even less.

Regards

Rod

www.lewisdiscus.com

[DiscusMan]

Rod,

thanks for that great bit of information. Very interesting stuff indeed.

Wayne

[nag]

Thanks Rod, that's fantastic information... :D :D

BTW, when you say
...The only way is to breed each one with an unrelated discus and see how the babies look...

Does this mean...do I cross them with any other strain? Say, a red turq. for instance?? (And watch out for the dominant PB gene??)
Regards,

PS: I'm trying to sketch what could be end result...will post it soon... :)

[sunshinediscus]

Yes nag, thats right. A red turk would be great, any discus really as long as it is not a dominant pb.

The info i have given is only 1 example, there really are a lot variations which needs to be considered. Once you have the f1 generation then that will tell you a lot about the genetic makeup of the parents and what will be the best way to proceed on your experiment.

[nag]

I'm really, really thankful to all contributors on this thread...
Especially to ROD...you've been the guiding guru...

I surely will update this thread as soon as the babies are out...with the results... :D

Thank you folks... :D