Feeding Apisto's

[boost.puppy]

I'm reffering to a post on another forum & I would like to know others opinions.

Apparently his young apisto died for an unknown reason, he took it to his vet for an autopsy, the fish showed little symptoms until 2 days prior when it started swimming upside down & floating upside down at the bottom of the tank.

The vet has now stated that the fish died due to the small bristles on Bloodworms that he was feeding, lodged in the fish's intestines & the fish died due to the Bloodworms tearing the intestines apart.

I have not heard of this ever before... has anyone else? the vet also said that minced fish & Blackworms are the best food to feed an apisto, but i think that might be a little to high in protein for the fish, for a complete diet anyway.

[Th0mas]

Apisto are mainly micro-predators. Worm isn't part of their main diet in the wild, although they love them. They cannot take excess of them.

This "shell" is known as exo-skeleton, and little fish like apisto find them difficult to digest. So by spoiling them with worm is unfortunately one way to shorten their life.

I however do feed mine with bloodworm - but in very small quantity and about once a fortnight to once a month (whenever I remember, have the time, early enough, etc).

So far I've found no issue with the diet I've been using, discus granule and live BBS.

[Rod]

Bloodworms have hooks along each side if their bodies.....they are often the cause of bloat in African Cichlids which are used to more greenery in their diet....I didn't think they would be a problem with apiso's which have a higher protein diet in the wild....stronger stomach acid to dissolve the "hooks"???

Best foods for apisto's.....???

Mine have a staple diet of quality pellets....New Life Spectrum for small fish+ others
+ live foods once or twice a week......
Black worms
White worms
Grindal worms
Daphnia
Blood worms
Mosquito larva
depends what's available/in season or propagating well

Personally I believe most ornamental fish....like humans....are overfeed
I tend to feed fish once a day if mature.....twice a day if growing.....and live food once a day if conditioning before a spawn.

Big issue is to make sure you don't overfeed or uneaten food is removed before becoming septic. :wink:

[amazon dee]

Rod & Thomas
I recently had multiple deaths in my fish which I blamed on some new additions.

The symptoms are exactly as you are describing.

I have bolivian butterflys, and appistos and feed a single block of bloodworms and 2 of shrimp ever 4-6 days alternately.
I do not mix with other dry food and dont add any other food at the same time.
Due to unavailability of bloodworm sometimes I have dry worm on hand.

If the feeding of bloodworm can be a problem my appisto's, should I feed less and add dry food as well when I do.
OR as my fish are young not feed them bloodworm at all.

The only choice you get here in the shops are bloodworm of brine shrimp, Can you ship other more suitable live food in the post?

New appisto lover Amazon Dee

[fishgeek]

intestinal perforation in a much hardier species than a apisto would kill it quicker than 2 days without treatment

it's my profession and i think it is full of BS, then i am pretty damn cynical... unfortunately

obviously magnification of the intestinal tract would have been needed to make this diagnosis, and then if the gut wall was perforated and damaged i still dont think you could confidently state that such a small object(as a body bristle on a worm) was the cause

the suggested diet of minced fish and blackworm is not a natural diet as thomas has pointed out

has anyone data to support that chitin(i assume that is that the exoskeleton is made of) is indigestabe
as micropredators they eat insect larvae.. all have a chitinous exoskeleton
i know i have feed mine heavily on daphnia at times and they have looked very healthy
i use bloodworm from a local water source, only small number because that is all i can collect
mosquito larva and blood worms are pretty similar insects .. do we all think mosquitoe larvae are dangerous/bad too?

i personally feel that when we dont know the answer , what grandparents said , everything in moderation is a good rule to follow
with a varied diet an unknown deficiency issue can be corrected

[fishgeek]

datz publication makes comment that on stomach content studies chiromid larva where one of the more common findings

andrew

one of the hardest things to do at work is say i dont know and then explain why i still require paying...

[boost.puppy]

well I'm glad to see like me, others do feed Blood worms to their Apisto's with no problems.. I have however cut right back to only feeding them on "special occasions", because they do love it...

I have been feeding them spirulina flakes, spirulina brine shrip & Mal's freeze dried blackworms. I will try out some of the pellets suggested in earlier posts, I think it's about time I started feeding them.

now I also feed bloodworms to my marines, will they have a similar effect? I currently feed them to my copperband, who loves them, but I'm noticing others in the tank are tking a liking to the bloodworms too!

[Th0mas]

Although I don't have any scientific proof of such issue on bloodworm, but I've had my bad time with apisto when they were being fed with the combination of bloodworm, discus granule as their primary diet in the past.

Guess it's really your decision - whether to take the risk or not. I've not found any issue of excluding bloodworm from their main diet so far (and still feeds it as an occasional treat).

Oh - I forgot to include NLS as another component of their diet for some species (some don't like them) at home.

[Hassles]

I wish to point out that it appears that this thread has been ignited by the unfortunatele death of my A. Trifasciatum (German). I took the fish to Dr Jim Greenwood, who among other things writes for Aquarium Keeper Australia magazine. Its fortunate I live close by to his surgery. Jim was gracious enough to invite me to peer through his microscope at the intestines of my dead Trifascitum. What I observed was terrible and somewhat akin to fiberglass splinters. Jim's recomendation to cease feeding Bloodworms to 'fine intestined fish' was imeadiately heeded. I now employ the usual diet supplemented with live blackworm and grated frozen flathead. The Trifasciatums were hard enough to come by and bloodworms are not worth the risk while safer alternatives may be had.

regards to all and please keep your fish safe.

Hassles

[Rod]

Perhaps if you feed frozen bloodworm twice a day for a week you may get a build up of bloodworm bristles??? Perhaps fish also "pig out" and consume too much at once.....unlikely to happen in the wild.

All live food has a potential risk if it's the only food given
White worms make fish fat
Mossie larva can introduce disease
Tubifex can introduce disease
Daphnia can act as a laxative
bloodworms have bristles

Feed in moderation and alternate with other foods minimises risk....it doesn't eliminate risk and it's closer to a natural diet??

I prefer to feed fish these foods live....not frozen as I believe they lose a lot of nutritional value being frozen....frozen is easier but culturing live food is fun :wink:

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for that information Hassles. Dr Jim Greenwood is a well respected and well known vet with a special interest in aquarium fish. He's done some great things for the aquarium industry.

Just for the record, our friend fishgeek (Andrew) is also a qualified vet with a special interest in dwarf cichlids.

I'm curious to know how often you fed frozen bloodworms and if the dead fish had a particular love of bloodworms.

I've always been hesitant to feed frozen bloodworms to juvenile discus till they were at least 3 inches in size, because I personally believe that the exo skeleton is difficult to digest.

Is the secret to only feed a small amount, and mix with a good variety of other foods?

[katchan]

Wow, have monitored (and now posted on this topic in three difeerent forums) and now get the full rundown, hassles maybe you should post the full results on the other forums you have mentioned it at. It helped me understand it better, though from this topic covered on another forum I have stopped the blood wrom for my discus/apistos (same tank) and only using daphnia/brineshrimp frozen foods
Andrew

[fishgeek]

maybe i will try feeding solely bloodworm to a nasty female panduro i have, she has killed 2 males and harasses anything else she is housed with

andrew

[katchan]

Could always try and squeeze her down your modem, happy to take donations LOL

[Hassles]

Thanks for that information Hassles. Dr Jim Greenwood is a well respected and well known vet with a special interest in aquarium fish. He's done some great things for the aquarium industry.

Just for the record, our friend fishgeek (Andrew) is also a qualified vet with a special interest in dwarf cichlids.

I'm curious to know how often you fed frozen bloodworms and if the dead fish had a particular love of bloodworms.

I've always been hesitant to feed frozen bloodworms to juvenile discus till they were at least 3 inches in size, because I personally believe that the exo skeleton is difficult to digest.

Is the secret to only feed a small amount, and mix with a good variety of other foods?

I feed all my fish as diverse a diet as they will accept. With regards to the Trifasictum (and other Apistogrammas) IF they're lucky they will receive a meagre feed of frozen / live worms perhaps twice a week Other foods they receive is pure spirulina, flake food, Hikari's Micro wafers & pellets, cichlid complete, Cyclop-eeze. If I locate mosquito larvae in the tub outside they'll share these with the rainbowfish.

The fish that died was the most mature so glutony may have been a factor but.....I usually watch my fish when I feed them. The blackworms, both live & freeze dried, have been readily accepted I am pleased to say.

[boost.puppy]

maybe i will try feeding solely bloodworm to a nasty female panduro i have, she has killed 2 males and harasses anything else she is housed with

andrew

From my experience, the fish that are the biggest pain & the ones who bug others live the longest...

I have a deformed female ram that i was sure wouldn't survive.. she's been going strong!!!! and my expensive rams I got imported died from a disease & she's still kicking.. my lil $8.00 fish :P